NorthShoreWx Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I posted this as a reply in a regional thread, but it probably belongs here: I've been assembling some data on winter minimum temperatures, inspired by reading a number of posters who seem convinced we have been experiencing "arctic outbreaks". I used annual data (not seasonal) for Central Park in New York City for the period 1876 - 2010. The graph below clearly shows that at one time below zero in the winter was a common occurence in central park. It also shows that in NYC, to have a winter where the lowest temperature does not fall below 10 is relatively rare ( 23 out of 135 years). 8 of the 23 have occured since 1990. It is very rare for the winter minimum not to fall below 15 ...this has only happened 5 times in 135 years and three of those times have been since 2000. By contrast, 41 out of 135 years have had an annual minimum of 0 or below (30.4%, almost 1 in 3) but none of them have occured in the past 15 years. The low so far this winter in Central Park as of January 12 is 19. The coldest last year was 13. The average winter minimum for the 135 year period is 4.1 degrees F. The average since 1960 (factoring out the very cold winters of the 19th and early 20th centuries) is 5.9. NYC hasn't been that cold since 2005. The 10 year average for 2001 - 2010 was 10.0 degrees Obviously there is a lot of room for discussion of the relationship of these stats to climate change, but that is not the purpose of this post. The recent lack of cold temperatures may yet turn around as have the lean snow years of the 70s and 80s. Winter minimum temperatures are a very significant environmental factor, affecting many things such as the mix of plant (hardiness zone) and animal life that can survive in an area...or thrive in an area, the prevalence of various pests that have greater winter survival rates, etc. Even if winters average normal (or even colder than normal), the failure to achieve "normal" winter minumums can have a significant impact. Note: the year labels are approximate and do not align correctly with the data points on the graph. The data points themselves are accurate. It isn't hard to figure out what year you are looking at if you know, for example, that the -15 occured in 1934. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Two reasons, of course. (Maybe more?) Based on many measurements, the climate has warmed 1-2F since the start of NYC's continuous records in the 1870s, and that apparently has affected minima more than maxima. 2nd, urbanization continues to spread outward; Manhattan may not have added much to its UHI through add'l loss of green space (though I think the taller/closer buildings emit more heat than the lesser structures of a century ago), but the circle of pavement/development continues to extend outward. However, the effect is not continuous nor all encompassing. NYC's coldest ever temp was in 1934 and their most recent temp colder than -2 was the -8 of Feb. 1943, and the climate then was warmer than it would be in the 60s and 70s. Central Park hasn't been under 5F since 2005, but Maine broke its all time record with -50 in 2009. That record proves nothing about climate change, but the fact that NNE could be tht cold while NYC was meh might say something about UHI. And IMBY, -20 is the benchmark of bottom-of-winter temps. We've touched it in 10 of 12 winters (missed 01-02 and last winter, and haven't even been below -5 so far this winter), with a bottom of -36 in 2009. But that threshold depends on local climate. In NNJ, anything zero or below was noteworthy. In Ft. Kent, -30 was the point of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetItSnowInPhilly Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Wow you could not have picked a worse place than Central Park.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 I really got into the weeds a little with that analysis, although I enjoyed doing so. What I was originally looking to show (my hypothesis, if you would) was that the weather many of the younger posters on this board are using terms like "arctic" to describe is really just run of the mill winter temperatures for this part of the country. Some seem to think of 18 in NYC as having had the bottom drop out and that's not the case. It might be tough to get NYC to -5 or below again given the UHI, but I don't think that single digit lows as typical for the bottom of winter are a thing of the past. I think its just a cyclical, perhaps coincidental sort of thing, much the way that the abysmal snowfall of the 1980s was an aberration. Basically, I don't want to run out of adjectives before we need to invent new terms to describe genuine winter cold. This winter is "chilly" in my book...from my uneducated perspective with the displaced PVs we have been synoptically in a pattern more similar to normal for perhaps coastal Newfoundland; i.e., cold but a steady supply of modified maritime polar air and not true arctic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Wow you could not have picked a worse place than Central Park.... I disagree. Those cold radiational nights that you are so fond of are, for lack of a better term, a mesoscale phenomenon. It is of no relevance to me for this context that a 1 square mile area around KFOK or KDIX or some isolated valley in W VA gets down below 0 for 15 minutes until it mixes out while the rest of the region is around freezing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle W Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Some NYC winter temperature stats... Lowest winter maximums for NYC... This list of winters includes days with maximums in the teens, the coldest max for the winter, total days with a max 32 or lower and consecutive days 32 or lower...1917-18 and 1976-77 have the most days with a max 32 or lower...45...1952-53 the least with 2...1960-61 had the most consecutive days...So far this year the lowest max is 23 set back in December...Last year was 20 in January... Year..... days max...days max 32 or below/consecutive days... 2010-11...0....23...........11............3 2009-10...0....20...........17............3 2008-09...1....16...........22............3 2007-08...0....20.............6............2 2006-07...1....18...........18............9 2005-06...0....24.............9............2 2004-05...2....18...........18............9 2003-04...4....15...........26............9 2002-03...1....15...........31..........12 2001-02...0....31.............3............2 2000-01...0....25...........20..........13 1999-00...1....19...........18............7 1998-99...0....25...........13............3 1997-98...0....29.............3............2 1996-97...1....17...........11............3 1995-96...3....17...........30............9 1994-95...0....20...........11............5 1993-94...5....10...........31............5 1992-93...0....27.............7............3 1991-92...0....23.............9............2 1990-91...0....20.............7............1 1989-90...1....18...........19............9 1988-89...0....20...........19............3 1987-88...1....17...........19............7 1986-87...1....19...........11............5 1985-86...0....22...........19............4 1984-85...1......9...........18............5 1983-84...3....13...........29............8 1982-83...0....21...........13............4 1981-82...6....15...........20............6 1980-81...3....14...........30..........11 1979-80...0....21...........19............5 1978-79...6....13...........26..........11 1977-78...0....21...........42..........12 1976-77...5....12...........45............9 1975-76...2....15...........20............3 1974-75...0....27.............8............2 1973-74...0....22...........23............3 1972-73...1....18...........13............4 1971-72...1....15...........17............5 1970-71...4....12...........25............5 1969-70...3....14...........27............6 1968-69...0....22...........18............3 1967-68...4....13...........22............9 1966-67...1....16...........25............6 1965-66...1....19...........14............2 1964-65...3....16...........22............5 1963-64...0....22...........18............7 1962-63...1....13...........29............7 1961-62...0....24...........16............4 1960-61...2....19...........27..........16 1959-60...0....23...........15............3 1958-59...0....22...........26..........10 1957-58...2....10...........21..........12 1956-57...1....12...........13............6 1955-56...1....18...........20............4 1954-55...1....17...........16............4 1953-54...0....21...........13............4 1952-53...0....29.............2............1 1951-52...0....20...........13............3 1950-51...0....20...........14............3 1949-50...0....22...........12............3 1948-49...0....22.............9............4 1947-48...2....18...........32..........10 ...................................................................... 1942-43...2......8............28...........5 1935-36...4....16...........39..........12 1934-35...5....16...........24............6 1933-34...6......8............38...........9 1917-18.12......2............45.........10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Good thread. Same issue IMBY in the Chicago suburbs. Typically, ORD sees about 10 subzero nights per winter. However, the average was about 15 per year in the 1970s and 1980s, but only about 5 per year in the 1990s and 2000s. And, in the past two winters combined, we have only seen 1...and that was barely below zero (-1F). Some of it is increasing UHI over time...but we just don't seem to be getting the true arctic shots like we got in the 1970s and 1980s. Outside of Jan. 1994, Feb. 1996, and Jan. 2009, there hasn't really been any notable cold in the Chicago suburbs over the past 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle W Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 today was the 12th consecutive day with a minimum 32 or lower...last year we had 23 in a row...27 in 2008-09... The record...since 1917-18 season.....con/days min. 32 or lower... 1976-77...........51 1969-70...........45 1917-18...........44 1933-34...........36 1944-45...........36 2006-07...........36 1984-85...........35 1954-55...........33 1989-90...........33 1935-36...........31 1979-80...........31 2003-04...........29 1999-00...........28 1968-69...........27 1967-68...........27 1964-65...........27 2008-09...........27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottawa Blizzard Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I can say with certainty that this winter has not been cold by the standards of Ottawa and Montreal. Generally, we see at least a few days when the high doesn't get above 0F, and at least one day when the high doesn't get above -20C. We have seen neitehr this winter thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzucker Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I disagree. Those cold radiational nights that you are so fond of are, for lack of a better term, a mesoscale phenomenon. It is of no relevance to me for this context that a 1 square mile area around KFOK or KDIX or some isolated valley in W VA gets down below 0 for 15 minutes until it mixes out while the rest of the region is around freezing. It's not a mesoscale phenomenon, everyone radiates 100X better than Central Park. That's what he's saying. Using Central Park's numbers is a waste of time because it's obviously such an extreme example of UHI, not getting below 19F with 850s of -19C when everyone else was in the lower teens, and not getting below 6F in January 2009 when almost all the rest of the area hit zero with 850s near -24C. Their numbers aren't representative of a legitimate climate shift in terms of higher winter minimums due to global warming, more cloud cover, more precipitation, etc. It's just because people built more buildings and highways, which makes it not as interesting to study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebman Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 What makes a cold winter COLD, is a high temperature of 2 degrees above zero Fahrenheit, followed by a low of -14 degrees Fahrenheit, accompanied by NNW winds of 20 to 27 mph gusting to 44 mph. Like we had in January 1985. My jebwalk that night was unforgettable. I cherished it with all my heart. IF ONLY we could have a 492 DM PV in Central New York. That would be REFRESHING BLISS. I would go out on an EPIC jebwalk for all time! I would demonstrate the Mother of all Ice Jebwalks - On the FROZEN Potomac River - for five miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superjames1992 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 The urban heat island certainly distorts your study to some degree, at least. Also, this cold outbreak was very severe in some parts of the country. My hometown (and others in the SE, probably) had its coldest December in recorded history last month. We did not have any extreme cold, but the sustaining power of the cold was pretty remarkable as where the relatively cold high temperatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBG Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Their numbers aren't representative of a legitimate climate shift in terms of higher winter minimums due to global warming, more cloud cover, more precipitation, etc. It's just because people built more buildings and highways, which makes it not as interesting to study. I am definitely not a believer in global warming. I have some real suspicions of KNYC's measurements for a number of reasons. During summer, KNYC seems to go over 100 far fewer times than KLGA and other stations (KEWR is another story for very different reasons including being surrounded by literally 24 or more lanes of superhighway). Even some of KNYC's numbers from earlier summers have been "revised" upwards. For example news reports from 1953 mention a maximum temperature during the notorious early September heat wave but recent records list that as being 102 or 103 (I forget which). Their snowfall numbers are equally suspect. Having lived through the 1969 "Mayor Lindsay" snowstorm and such recent events as February 25-26, 2010 and the Boxing Day Blizzard, there is no way that KNYC had only 15" of snow. I suspect their figures are virtually useless, as in not representing events even in Central Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-L-E-X Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I disagree. Those cold radiational nights that you are so fond of are, for lack of a better term, a mesoscale phenomenon. It is of no relevance to me for this context that a 1 square mile area around KFOK or KDIX or some isolated valley in W VA gets down below 0 for 15 minutes until it mixes out while the rest of the region is around freezing. Ed, how about we just deal with high temps, since they arent tainted with UHI. We've discussed this in our subforum and as you know, I'm not fond of using min temps in computing averages for NYC in any season. I agree with what youre saying in that perception is skewing what we consider a truly cold winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-L-E-X Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I am definitely not a believer in global warming. I have some real suspicions of KNYC's measurements for a number of reasons. During summer, KNYC seems to go over 100 far fewer times than KLGA and other stations (KEWR is another story for very different reasons including being surrounded by literally 24 or more lanes of superhighway). Even some of KNYC's numbers from earlier summers have been "revised" upwards. For example news reports from 1953 mention a maximum temperature during the notorious early September heat wave but recent records list that as being 102 or 103 (I forget which). Their snowfall numbers are equally suspect. Having lived through the 1969 "Mayor Lindsay" snowstorm and such recent events as February 25-26, 2010 and the Boxing Day Blizzard, there is no way that KNYC had only 15" of snow. I suspect their figures are virtually useless, as in not representing events even in Central Park. Well JFK recorded 24 inches both in Feb 1961 and Feb 1969 and 22 inches in Feb 1983-- with NYC significantly lower in all three storms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzucker Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Ed, how about we just deal with high temps, since they arent tainted with UHI. We've discussed this in our subforum and as you know, I'm not fond of using min temps in computing averages for NYC in any season. I agree with what youre saying in that perception is skewing what we consider a truly cold winter. Minimums are important for several reasons though...they determine hardiness zones for plants/flowers, survival of pests like ticks and diseases, how much ice forms on the Hudson River and LI Sound, etc. I don't think we can exclude minimums from a study of our region's climate, although using Central Park as the focal point of the study makes little sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpha5 Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Ed, how about we just deal with high temps, since they arent tainted with UHI. We've discussed this in our subforum and as you know, I'm not fond of using min temps in computing averages for NYC in any season. I agree with what youre saying in that perception is skewing what we consider a truly cold winter. Agree with this, the chart posted shows that UHI is cleary affecting NYC's minimum temps. I honestly dont know how anyone expects KNYC to drop below 0 anymore with nearly 8 million people in the city, and millions of cars, buildings, and other heat producing things....outside of a historic cold snap, its just not going to happen. In the suburbs, yes, the city no. I live 30 miles outside of the city and I had a low of 5 on friday morning, the city was in the upper teens. There is no way NYC's low temp. data is relevant anymore thanks to UHI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-L-E-X Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Minimums are important for several reasons though...they determine hardiness zones for plants/flowers, survival of pests like ticks and diseases, how much ice forms on the Hudson River and LI Sound, etc. I don't think we can exclude minimums from a study of our region's climate, although using Central Park as the focal point of the study makes little sense to me. Yes, Im just making an allowance for it for NYC's microclimate, in that when youre trying to compare different time periods, it makes for a better comparison if you dont use daily mins (like comparing Feb 1934 to Jan 1985 and Jan 1994, for example.) I believe the high temp difference between the two dates was 6-7 degrees, which is probably a truer indication of how much colder the airmass was in Feb 1934, rather than the low temp difference of 13 degrees. And you already know how I feel about high min summers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzucker Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Yes, Im just making an allowance for it for NYC's microclimate, in that when youre trying to compare different time periods, it makes for a better comparison if you dont use daily mins (like comparing Feb 1934 to Jan 1985 and Jan 1994, for example.) I believe the high temp difference between the two dates was 6-7 degrees, which is probably a truer indication of how much colder the airmass was in Feb 1934, rather than the low temp difference of 13 degrees. And you already know how I feel about high min summers I basically agree with you, Alex. I think anyone attempting to use the increase in Central Park's winter minima to make a point about large-scale climate shifts such as global warming is a little crazy. It would be much better to do this study in the rural areas of Long Island like the Twin Forks, or in Northern Westchester where the landscape is fairly untouched in many areas. That would give a realistic idea of how much winter temperatures have actually warmed due to natural and anthropogenic factors. It's just silly to say that we aren't experiencing arctic air just because Central Park isn't getting cold at night due to poor radiational cooling. I consider December 14-15 of this winter a miniature arctic outbreak...we only got up to 22F and 26F those days when average highs are still around 45F. That's quite impressive, especially with only 1" snow cover. I also think January 2009 was a truly brutal outbreak even though Central Park bottomed out at only 6F; northern Maine got down to -50F which is the coldest value ever recorded there, and even Middlebury hit -20F on the coldest night with a high of 6F that day. February 1934 was clearly a bigger outbreak, but again, that airmass today wouldn't give Central Park a low of -15F. That's simply impossible now with the UHI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-L-E-X Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I basically agree with you, Alex. I think anyone attempting to use the increase in Central Park's winter minima to make a point about large-scale climate shifts such as global warming is a little crazy. It would be much better to do this study in the rural areas of Long Island like the Twin Forks, or in Northern Westchester where the landscape is fairly untouched in many areas. That would give a realistic idea of how much winter temperatures have actually warmed due to natural and anthropogenic factors. It's just silly to say that we aren't experiencing arctic air just because Central Park isn't getting cold at night due to poor radiational cooling. I consider December 14-15 of this winter a miniature arctic outbreak...we only got up to 22F and 26F those days when average highs are still around 45F. That's quite impressive, especially with only 1" snow cover. I also think January 2009 was a truly brutal outbreak even though Central Park bottomed out at only 6F; northern Maine got down to -50F which is the coldest value ever recorded there, and even Middlebury hit -20F on the coldest night with a high of 6F that day. February 1934 was clearly a bigger outbreak, but again, that airmass today wouldn't give Central Park a low of -15F. That's simply impossible now with the UHI. I dont think it would even get us to -10F, if it happened today, unfortunately KFOK might be a better place to make this analysis, since their climate seems to be relatively unchanged. Didnt they have a low of -4 this morning? And I remember during the 2008-09 winter they had back to back lows of -14 and -13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzucker Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 KFOK might be a better place to make this analysis, since their climate seems to be relatively unchanged. Didnt they have a low of -4 this morning? And I remember during the 2008-09 winter they had back to back lows of -14 and -13. FOK actually hit -5F this morning and -4F yesterday morning, very impressive. There were widespread readings below 0F near NYC including -3F at Poughkeepsie and -5F at Danbury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 For all its warts (and there are many), Central Park has continuous records for temp, precip, snowfall from the 1870s onward, and very few other US locations have data that far back. But nearly everything folks have said is true about UHI contaminating minima, especially winter minima. One possible exception: Even some of KNYC's numbers from earlier summers have been "revised" upwards. For example news reports from 1953 mention a maximum temperature during the notorious early September heat wave but recent records list that as being 102 or 103 (I forget which). My 1967 Uncle Wethbee's Weather Almanac shows 9/2/1953 with a high of 102, tops for Sept. It also has 9/7/1881 with 101, the only other Sept triple. There may have been revision (I think all the 1983 precip data was dumped due to measurement issues), but the Sept heat of 1953 was not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle W Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 For all its warts (and there are many), Central Park has continuous records for temp, precip, snowfall from the 1870s onward, and very few other US locations have data that far back. But nearly everything folks have said is true about UHI contaminating minima, especially winter minima. One possible exception: Even some of KNYC's numbers from earlier summers have been "revised" upwards. For example news reports from 1953 mention a maximum temperature during the notorious early September heat wave but recent records list that as being 102 or 103 (I forget which). My 1967 Uncle Wethbee's Weather Almanac shows 9/2/1953 with a high of 102, tops for Sept. It also has 9/7/1881 with 101, the only other Sept triple. There may have been revision (I think all the 1983 precip data was dumped due to measurement issues), but the Sept heat of 1953 was not one of them. Good morning Tamarack...The almanac from 1953 probably has the Battery location for observations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Ed, how about we just deal with high temps, since they arent tainted with UHI. We've discussed this in our subforum and as you know, I'm not fond of using min temps in computing averages for NYC in any season. I agree with what youre saying in that perception is skewing what we consider a truly cold winter. Alex, my one and only point intended was that we have not had a decent arctic outbreak in this part of the country. You don't need that for below normal daytime temperatures. You don't need that to have a very cold night with clear skies, calm winds, and low dewpoints out side of urban areas. You do need that to get sub-zero cold into urban heat islands. When was the last time KFOK went below zero with strong winds on CAA? Its been a while. Probably the same length of time that it has been for NYC. We have not had a true arctic airmass this winter or for quite a long time. One in 2004 was close but didn't set up quite right.. Thats what I've been talking about. I have no idea why some insist on treating my posts as some kind of global warming argument. I'm not going to get drawn into absurd arguments that NYC's climate isn't warmer than it was 100 years ago (I'm not talking about you here Alex). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzucker Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Alex, my one and only point intended was that we have not had a decent arctic outbreak in this part of the country. You don't need that for below normal daytime temperatures. You don't need that to have a very cold night with clear skies, calm winds, and low dewpoints out side of urban areas. You do need that to get sub-zero cold into urban heat islands. When was the last time KFOK went below zero with strong winds on CAA? Its been a while. Probably the same length of time that it has been for NYC. We have not had a true arctic airmass this winter or for quite a long time. One in 2004 was close but didn't set up quite right.. Thats what I've been talking about. I have no idea why some insist on treating my posts as some kind of global warming argument. I'm not going to get drawn into absurd arguments that NYC's climate isn't warmer than it was 100 years ago (I'm not talking about you here Alex). Well, I disagree with this whole idea. I do think we're due for a massive outbreak, but I feel that January 2009 and January 2004 were quite impressive. January 2009 shattered Maine's all-time temperature record with a low of -50F, most people in the NYC suburbs recorded lows between 0F and -10F, and the -20C 850s extended well past DC. If NYC had a "normal" climate, they would have reached 0F during both the January 2009 and January 2004 outbreaks. That's what I'm arguing. Can you tell me when NYC got below 0F with strong winds on CAA? What are some examples of this, because it has to be pretty difficult to achieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sferic Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Well, I disagree with this whole idea. I do think we're due for a massive outbreak, but I feel that January 2009 and January 2004 were quite impressive. January 2009 shattered Maine's all-time temperature record with a low of -50F, most people in the NYC suburbs recorded lows between 0F and -10F, and the -20C 850s extended well past DC. If NYC had a "normal" climate, they would have reached 0F during both the January 2009 and January 2004 outbreaks. That's what I'm arguing. Can you tell me when NYC got below 0F with strong winds on CAA? What are some examples of this, because it has to be pretty difficult to achieve? No expert, and on ocassion I need clarification but What exactly is CAA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Good morning Tamarack...The almanac from 1953 probably has the Battery location for observations... The first Almanac I got was the 1961 edition, which had Battery Place records (tenth degrees and all) thru 1960. Don't have it here now - in my cellar somewhere - but IIRC, 9/2/1953 was something like 100.8. My 1962 thru 1967 versions all had Central Park records. Can you tell me when NYC got below 0F with strong winds on CAA? What are some examples of this, because it has to be pretty difficult to achieve? It was pretty windy on 2/8/1963 at -2, tho that was kind of a freaky event, not sure if it was classic CAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzucker Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 No expert, and on ocassion I need clarification but What exactly is CAA? Cold air advection....the idea of having a cold night not because of radiational cooling but because of strong north/northwest winds bringing in arctic air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Well, I disagree with this whole idea. I do think we're due for a massive outbreak, but I feel that January 2009 and January 2004 were quite impressive. January 2009 shattered Maine's all-time temperature record with a low of -50F, most people in the NYC suburbs recorded lows between 0F and -10F, and the -20C 850s extended well past DC. If NYC had a "normal" climate, they would have reached 0F during both the January 2009 and January 2004 outbreaks. That's what I'm arguing. Can you tell me when NYC got below 0F with strong winds on CAA? What are some examples of this, because it has to be pretty difficult to achieve? 1994, 1985, 1980, 1977, 1976, 1968, ... basically all of the times NYC has been below zero. I'm not old enough to remember the 1800s, but I suspect the same to have been true then despite the far greater frequency of sub-zero readings in those days. As blue wave pointed out, there have been a lot of intense arctic outbreaks that gave NYC a glancing blow. The core of the cold air in both the 1985 and 1977 outbreaks was to the west and southwest of NYC. In 2004 it was to the NE of NYC. Both BOS and NYC were in a sub zero drought going back to 1994. Boston broke it's drought in 2004 with a -7, NYC did not. The 850 maps showed core 850s around -30c passing just north of NYC and moving towards the northeast. The glancing blow of the coldest core bypassed NYC around midnight or a little thereafter. It was directly over Boston around sunrise...perfect timing. I'm not arguing with you that the heat island isn't real or that the NYC climate isn't 'effed. I just believe that if the synoptic conditions of one of the historical outbreaks that produced very low temperatures in NYC were reproduced, the modern day result would be similar. I can't say it wouldn't be off by a degree or two, but it would be very similar and would for a short time blow the UHI effect out to sea.. Which brings me back to the reason I made the original post...NYC has not had good hit from the core of an anomalously cold artic airmas in a very long time. The reason I made the post in the first place was because I have been reading a lot of hyperbole about "arctic" the temps have been. I know thats not you because I know you understand that 18 as the low temp for the winter is pretty cheesy for "arctic" conditions, even with the Manhattan heat island. The January 2004 and 2009 arctic pushes didn't deliver the goods because they just plain missed the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycwinter Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 i have lived in nyc my whole life..and winter's are not as cold as there were when i was a teen in the 1980's i really think the reason is that arctic air masses are not as cold as they use to be..and it's just not for nyc.. even in the mid west it does not get as cold as it use to..what was it like a decad eor so in the 1990's there was a frigid air mass in the midwest where for days the daily temps were minus 20's at least .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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