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PHL Jan 11-12 Miller B Thread


am19psu

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Honestly if your going to call a bust before the storm even gets going go troll elswhere. If I was a mod I would be handing out suspensions like candy on Halloween.

The radar is not looking good to me if you are in the Del Valley. Screaming dry slot... classic Miller B problem.

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Baroclinic's theory about the small low may be correct... but its SO small that as it gets going the main body of precip stays really close to it... thus screwing over most of this region anyway.

This is a worry for the folks out W. Such a compact low it will have a small precip shield if it gets too wound up.

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The radar is not looking good to me if you are in the Del Valley. Screaming dry slot... classic Miller B problem.

How can you make that type of call though when you still have a relativly weak low all the way down by the carolinas though? When the system is off the Delmarva at midnight and its only snowing lightly then its time to say its a miss.

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So, basically because of one or two model runs, and a "right now its looking like poo..." radar returns, people are jumping off the deep-end? Good Lord people, settle the heck down. This thing could easily come west and surprise many of us.

The storm wasn't even supposed to get going for another 6 hours. :lol:

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With that date I didn't necessarily mean to consider its track, just its explosive development.

As for the NAM, it won't be as "consistent" as the GFS, it never will be. It isn't made to be either. The NAM is a non-hydrostatic mesoscale model, and as such, it requires much less aggressive filters. This is good and bad. Noise can creep up into the analysis and this is why the NAM can typically become garbage after 48 hours sometimes. However, as I said earlier regarding this storm, the GFS will not be able to handle it well. It isn't made to. GFS is a completely different beast, and in this case, the NAM gets far more consideration than the op GFS because of the extreme non-linear develoment and the compact nature of the low as well as effects of the deep DT and likely folding. The op GFS may be consistent, but why bother if it is consistently wrong?

Fair enough. I do know the NAM is a mesoscale model but it may be right on the low placement but wrong on qpf...that's where I guess it can look inconsistent?

I appreciate the explanation.

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Too many snow mongers on this site....ohh ohhh look at the wetter NAM, ohh weee....

Forget looking at the models people, are there any true meteorologists left out there? This is not the Boxing Day blizzard, not even close! The southern stream and northern stream never phased, the southern stream popped its cork yesterday while the northern stream energy is 2 days behind. So we are left with the classic northern stream inland low that jumps to the coast with some kind of occluded front draped east to west across PA. Rapid deepening happens too late for most of the region and too far to the north, most of PA is gonna get dry slotted after 0.2" to 0.3" of precip falls. My guess is 2-4" for most of eastern PA, maybe 3-6" in the eastern Poconos, 4-8" in Jersey, 6-10" on Long Island and 10-20" in eastern MA and RI.

Whether or not the GFS is correct is another debatable point but it has been very steady with precip production here in eastern PA with 0.30" - 0.40" for several runs in a row...

Of course now that I have said this there will be 2 feet of snow in my driveway in the morning...haha

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wow..what are they basing this on. What model is showing those amounts for Central jersey. The 18zNAM also came in considerably drier. Why wouldnt they leave the 6-7 inch amounts there? Seems to be a very risky move

If you take a blend of the high res models and the 18z NAM you get numbers like those. Also current observations suggest that the low is stronger than forecasted to be at this point in time as I've been saying and alot of mets have been saying all day.

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Mt Holly 344PM update:

THE NAM INITIALIZED BETTER THAN THE GFS OR THE ECMWF WITH THE TROF

OVER THE SE THAT IS SHARPER THAN THE LATTER MODELS HAVE. THE WALLOPS

1C WARMER TEMPS AT 850MB ARE NOT EXTENDING THAT FAR INLAND AS APG

AND IAD 850MB TEMPS ARE AT OR BELOW -4C AND MODEL INITIALIZATION IS

TOO WARM THERE.

BASED ON THE 18Z SURFACE ANALYSIS THE WRF-NMM AND CAN RGEM ARE

VERIFYING THE BEST, THE LOW IS TUCKED INTO THE COAST MUCH CLOSER

THAN EITHER THE ECMWF AND GFS HAVE. THIS IS BASED ON CARGO SHIP

WDD3825 OBSERVATION. THANK-YOU OPC FOR THE INFORMATION ON THAT

MOVING BUOY.

THUS THIS FORECAST PACKAGE WILL BE LEANING MORE TOWARD THE HI RES

MODELS WAYS THAN THE HEMISPHERIC ONES. OF COURSE EVEN LEANING IN

THAT DIRECTION DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEIR PCPN PROCESSES (QPF) WILL

COME TO FRUITION.

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Too many snow mongers on this site....ohh ohhh look at the wetter NAM, ohh weee....

Forget looking at the models people, are there any true meteorologists left out there? This is not the Boxing Day blizzard, not even close! The southern stream and northern stream never phased, the southern stream popped its cork yesterday while the northern stream energy is 2 days behind. So we are left with the classic northern stream inland low that jumps to the coast with some kind of occluded front draped east to west across PA. Rapid deepening happens too late for most of the region and too far to the north, most of PA is gonna get dry slotted after 0.2" to 0.3" of precip falls. My guess is 2-4" for most of eastern PA, maybe 3-6" in the eastern Poconos, 4-8" in Jersey, 6-10" on Long Island and 10-20" in eastern MA and RI.

Whether or not the GFS is correct is another debatable point but it has been very steady with precip production here in eastern PA with 0.30" - 0.40" for several runs in a row...

Of course now that I have said this there will be 2 feet of snow in my driveway in the morning...haha

Correcto. Also the GEM has been in the 0.25-0.45 ballpark the past few days.

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Mt Holly 344PM update:

THE NAM INITIALIZED BETTER THAN THE GFS OR THE ECMWF WITH THE TROF

OVER THE SE THAT IS SHARPER THAN THE LATTER MODELS HAVE. THE WALLOPS

1C WARMER TEMPS AT 850MB ARE NOT EXTENDING THAT FAR INLAND AS APG

AND IAD 850MB TEMPS ARE AT OR BELOW -4C AND MODEL INITIALIZATION IS

TOO WARM THERE.

BASED ON THE 18Z SURFACE ANALYSIS THE WRF-NMM AND CAN RGEM ARE

VERIFYING THE BEST, THE LOW IS TUCKED INTO THE COAST MUCH CLOSER

THAN EITHER THE ECMWF AND GFS HAVE. THIS IS BASED ON CARGO SHIP

WDD3825 OBSERVATION. THANK-YOU OPC FOR THE INFORMATION ON THAT

MOVING BUOY.

THUS THIS FORECAST PACKAGE WILL BE LEANING MORE TOWARD THE HI RES

MODELS WAYS THAN THE HEMISPHERIC ONES. OF COURSE EVEN LEANING IN

THAT DIRECTION DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEIR PCPN PROCESSES (QPF) WILL

COME TO FRUITION.

AKA take the hi-res models track, not so much their qpf shield.

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Just throwing this out their....Many have noticed that a few of the high res models have been showing a second QPF maxima in SE PA and current observations indicate that the precip shield over PA is being enhanced as the low over OH becomes unwrapped. What are the chances that this could act to temporarily enchance precip over SE PA as the coastal passes by to the south and east?

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