What makes you qualified to be a meteorologist?

[eduggs]

This is the same guy who won weenie-of-the-year... so you really don't have any right to tear down anyone else... especially someone with a degree.

I always get **** for saying this, but an undergrad met degree does not make you a Meteorologist. It's roughly equivalent to 1 months worth of text book reading for the average person.

Edit: I didn't start this thread and don't think it's a particularly worthwhile subject for discussion. But I'm glad the comments were removed from the discussion/obs thread.

[Kaner587]

I always get **** for saying this, but an undergrad met degree does not make you a Meteorologist. It's roughly equivalent to 1 months worth of text book reading for the average person.

Undergrad met degree might not make a person a pro-met but they know a heck of a lot more than the avg person. One months worth of textbook reading for the avg person? Where did you pull that from...?(disclaimer: my undergrad degree is in bio, just in case you thought I was taking it personally or something.)

[snowman21]

I always get **** for saying this, but an undergrad met degree does not make you a Meteorologist. It's roughly equivalent to 1 months worth of text book reading for the average person.

So what does it take for one to be a meteorologist? I always assumed if you graduated with a degree in meteorology following a program that meets NWS criteria, then you are one.

[eduggs]

Undergrad met degree might not make a person a pro-met but they know a heck of a lot more than the avg person. One months worth of textbook reading for the avg person? Where did you pull that from...?(disclaimer: my undergrad degree is in bio, just in case you thought I was taking it personally or something.)

From personal experience. I read text books in HS and knew more about meteorology than most Met grads in college. Masters and doctoral students were much more technically astute. Undergrads were primarily enthusiastic hobbyists, but not very well versed. It's just the nature of an undergrad degree in the US. They knew their meteorology about as well as they knew their physics and chemistry.

Undergrad degrees don't make specialists.

[eduggs]

So what does it take for one to be a meteorologist? I always assumed if you graduated with a degree in meteorology following a program that meets NWS criteria, then you are one.

Work experience or an advanced degree/research experience.

[Snowshack]

I always get **** for saying this, but an undergrad met degree does not make you a Meteorologist. It's roughly equivalent to 1 months worth of text book reading for the average person.

I would think you need AMS approval too...but thats kind of splitting hairs

[eduggs]

I would think you need AMS approval too...but thats kind of splitting hairs

For broadcasting, sure. I don't know much about AMS cert, but it doesn't seem as rigorous as most other professional certifications. And I certainly don't think it's necessary for non-broadcast mets.

[Sundog]

From personal experience. I read text books in HS and knew more about meteorology than most Met grads in college. Masters and doctoral students were much more technically astute. Undergrads were primarily enthusiastic hobbyists, but not very well versed. It's just the nature of an undergrad degree in the US. They knew their meteorology about as well as they knew their physics and chemistry.

Undergrad degrees don't make specialists.

I didn't know anecdotes became a valid form of evidence now.

You read all this in a month?

To serve as prerequisites for meteorology courses at the 300 and 400 level and to satisfy the major requirements, students must achieve a grade of C or better in the following courses:

11:670:201 Elements of Meteorology

11:670:202 Elements of Climatology

01:640:151-152 Calculus for Mathematical and Physical Sciences

01:640:251 Multivariable Calculus

01:750:203-204 General Physics

01:760:205-206 General Physics Laboratory

Graduation Requirements for the Meteorology Major (128 credits)

• School Mission: Interdisciplinary Critical Analysis (3 credits)
  11:015:400 Junior/Senior Colloquium (3)
• Introductory Life and Physical Sciences (21 credits)
  1. Life Sciences (4)
     01:119:103 Principles of Biology (4) or equivalent
  2. Physical Sciences (17)
     01:160:161-162 General Chemistry (4,4)
     01:160:171 Introduction to Experimentation (1)
     01:750:203-204 General Physics (3,3)
     01:750:205-206 General Physics Laboratory (1,1)

  [*]Humanities and the Arts (6 credits)

  See suggested courses online at: www.cookcollege.rutgers.edu/core/2003[*]Multicultural and International Studies (6 credits)

  See suggested courses online at: www.cookcollege.rutgers.edu/core/2003[*]Human Behavior, Economic Systems, and Political Processes (9 credits)

  See suggested courses online at: www.cookcollege.rutgers.edu/core/2003[*]Oral and Written Communication (6 credits)

  01:355:101 Expository Writing I (3)

  01:355:302 Scientific and Technical Writing (3) or 01:355:201 Research in the Disciplines (3)[*]Experience-Based Education (7 credits)

  11:670:433 Weather Analysis and Forecasting I: Synoptic Meteorology (4)

  11:670:434 Weather Analysis and Forecasting II: Mesoscale Meteorology (3)[*]Proficiency in Meteorology (51 credits)

  1. Quantitative Skills (19)
     11:375:303 Numerical Methods in Environmental Science (3)
     01:640:151-152 Calculus for Mathematical and Physical Sciences (4,4)
     01:640:244 Differential Equations for Engineering and Physics (4)
     01:640:251 Multivariable Calculus (4)
  2. Computer and Information Technology Competence (3)
     01:198:107 Computing for Math and Science (3)
  3. Professional Ethics
     Ethical problems in environmental, meteorological, and regulatory fields are addressed throughout the program in both introductory and advanced courses.
  4. Additional Requirements (29)
     11:375:421 Principles of Air Pollution (3) or 11:375:346 Atmospheric Chemistry (3)
     11:670:201 Elements of Meteorology (3)
     11:670:202 Elements of Climatology (3)
     11:670:209-210 Meteorological Analysis (1.5,1.5)
     11:670:323 Thermodynamics of the Atmosphere (3)
     11:670:324 Dynamics of the Atmosphere (3)
     11:670:414 Hydrologic Processes (3)
     11:670:431 Physical Meteorology (3)
     11:670:451 Remote Sensing of the Ocean and Atmosphere (3)
     11:670:461 Climate Dynamics (3)

  [*]Unspecified Electives (18 credits)

  In addition to courses meeting the above requirements, students can take any other courses offered by the University, for which they meet the course eligibility requirements, to bring their total number of credits to the minimum of 128 required for graduation.

[LocoAko]

I didn't know anecdotes became a valid form of evidence now.

You read all this in a month?

To serve as prerequisites for meteorology courses at the 300 and 400 level and to satisfy the major requirements, students must achieve a grade of C or better in the following courses:

11:670:201 Elements of Meteorology

11:670:202 Elements of Climatology

01:640:151-152 Calculus for Mathematical and Physical Sciences

01:640:251 Multivariable Calculus

01:750:203-204 General Physics

01:760:205-206 General Physics Laboratory

Graduation Requirements for the Meteorology Major (128 credits)

• School Mission: Interdisciplinary Critical Analysis (3 credits)
  11:015:400 Junior/Senior Colloquium (3)
• Introductory Life and Physical Sciences (21 credits)
  1. Life Sciences (4)
     01:119:103 Principles of Biology (4) or equivalent
  2. Physical Sciences (17)
     01:160:161-162 General Chemistry (4,4)
     01:160:171 Introduction to Experimentation (1)
     01:750:203-204 General Physics (3,3)
     01:750:205-206 General Physics Laboratory (1,1)

Humanities and the Arts (6 credits)

See suggested courses online at: www.cookcollege.rutgers.edu/core/2003<li>Multicultural and International Studies (6 credits)

See suggested courses online at: www.cookcollege.rutgers.edu/core/2003<li>Human Behavior, Economic Systems, and Political Processes (9 credits)

See suggested courses online at: www.cookcollege.rutgers.edu/core/2003<li>Oral and Written Communication (6 credits)

01:355:101 Expository Writing I (3)

01:355:302 Scientific and Technical Writing (3) or 01:355:201 Research in the Disciplines (3)<li>Experience-Based Education (7 credits)

11:670:433 Weather Analysis and Forecasting I: Synoptic Meteorology (4)

11:670:434 Weather Analysis and Forecasting II: Mesoscale Meteorology (3)<li>Proficiency in Meteorology (51 credits)

1. Quantitative Skills (19)
   11:375:303 Numerical Methods in Environmental Science (3)
   01:640:151-152 Calculus for Mathematical and Physical Sciences (4,4)
   01:640:244 Differential Equations for Engineering and Physics (4)
   01:640:251 Multivariable Calculus (4)
2. Computer and Information Technology Competence (3)
   01:198:107 Computing for Math and Science (3)
3. Professional Ethics
   Ethical problems in environmental, meteorological, and regulatory fields are addressed throughout the program in both introductory and advanced courses.
4. Additional Requirements (29)
   11:375:421 Principles of Air Pollution (3) or 11:375:346 Atmospheric Chemistry (3)
   11:670:201 Elements of Meteorology (3)
   11:670:202 Elements of Climatology (3)
   11:670:209-210 Meteorological Analysis (1.5,1.5)
   11:670:323 Thermodynamics of the Atmosphere (3)
   11:670:324 Dynamics of the Atmosphere (3)
   11:670:414 Hydrologic Processes (3)
   11:670:431 Physical Meteorology (3)
   11:670:451 Remote Sensing of the Ocean and Atmosphere (3)
   11:670:461 Climate Dynamics (3)

<li>Unspecified Electives (18 credits)

In addition to courses meeting the above requirements, students can take any other courses offered by the University, for which they meet the course eligibility requirements, to bring their total number of credits to the minimum of 128 required for graduation.

Rutgers! lol. I thought those requirements looked awfully familiar.

There are certainly people who graduate with degrees who know a lot less than you think they'd know based on how many classes they have to take (or they passed every class but got a C in everything, for example), but I think it is a bit of an understatement to say it is only a month's worth of education.... Actually a huge understatement.

[eduggs]

I didn't know anecdotes became a valid form of evidence now.

You read all this in a month?

To serve as prerequisites for meteorology courses at the 300 and 400 level and to satisfy the major requirements, students must achieve a grade of C or better in the following courses:

11:670:201 Elements of Meteorology

11:670:202 Elements of Climatology

01:640:151-152 Calculus for Mathematical and Physical Sciences

01:640:251 Multivariable Calculus

01:750:203-204 General Physics

01:760:205-206 General Physics Laboratory

Graduation Requirements for the Meteorology Major (128 credits)

• School Mission: Interdisciplinary Critical Analysis (3 credits)
  11:015:400 Junior/Senior Colloquium (3)
• Introductory Life and Physical Sciences (21 credits)
  1. Life Sciences (4)
     01:119:103 Principles of Biology (4) or equivalent
  2. Physical Sciences (17)
     01:160:161-162 General Chemistry (4,4)
     01:160:171 Introduction to Experimentation (1)
     01:750:203-204 General Physics (3,3)
     01:750:205-206 General Physics Laboratory (1,1)

Humanities and the Arts (6 credits)

See suggested courses online at: www.cookcollege.rutgers.edu/core/2003<li>Multicultural and International Studies (6 credits)

See suggested courses online at: www.cookcollege.rutgers.edu/core/2003<li>Human Behavior, Economic Systems, and Political Processes (9 credits)

See suggested courses online at: www.cookcollege.rutgers.edu/core/2003<li>Oral and Written Communication (6 credits)

01:355:101 Expository Writing I (3)

01:355:302 Scientific and Technical Writing (3) or 01:355:201 Research in the Disciplines (3)<li>Experience-Based Education (7 credits)

11:670:433 Weather Analysis and Forecasting I: Synoptic Meteorology (4)

11:670:434 Weather Analysis and Forecasting II: Mesoscale Meteorology (3)<li>Proficiency in Meteorology (51 credits)

1. Quantitative Skills (19)
   11:375:303 Numerical Methods in Environmental Science (3)
   01:640:151-152 Calculus for Mathematical and Physical Sciences (4,4)
   01:640:244 Differential Equations for Engineering and Physics (4)
   01:640:251 Multivariable Calculus (4)
2. Computer and Information Technology Competence (3)
   01:198:107 Computing for Math and Science (3)
3. Professional Ethics
   Ethical problems in environmental, meteorological, and regulatory fields are addressed throughout the program in both introductory and advanced courses.
4. Additional Requirements (29)
   11:375:421 Principles of Air Pollution (3) or 11:375:346 Atmospheric Chemistry (3)
   11:670:201 Elements of Meteorology (3)
   11:670:202 Elements of Climatology (3)
   11:670:209-210 Meteorological Analysis (1.5,1.5)
   11:670:323 Thermodynamics of the Atmosphere (3)
   11:670:324 Dynamics of the Atmosphere (3)
   11:670:414 Hydrologic Processes (3)
   11:670:431 Physical Meteorology (3)
   11:670:451 Remote Sensing of the Ocean and Atmosphere (3)
   11:670:461 Climate Dynamics (3)

<li>Unspecified Electives (18 credits)

In addition to courses meeting the above requirements, students can take any other courses offered by the University, for which they meet the course eligibility requirements, to bring their total number of credits to the minimum of 128 required for graduation.

I highlighted the relevant courses. Most of the others are introductory or part of general science/engineering disciplines. And yes, I read everything. Few of those classes are high level. And passing a few exams and completing a few problem sets does not make one an expert or even a proficient weather forecaster.

[eduggs]

Rutgers! lol. I thought those requirements looked awfully familiar.

There are certainly people who graduate with degrees who know a lot less than you think they'd know based on how many classes they have to take (or they passed every class but got a C in everything, for example), but I think it is a bit of an understatement to say it is only a month's worth of education.... Actually a huge understatement.

Well said.

I don't mean to suggest that the entire degree is equivalent to one month's reading, just the meteorology specific aspects. Dif Eq, multivariable calc, physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics etc.. are not met specific. They don't teach you how to forecast the weather.

[pazzo83]

I highlighted the relevant courses. Most of the others are introductory or part of general science/engineering disciplines. And yes, I read everything. Few of those classes are high level. And passing a few exams and completing a few problem sets does not make one an expert or even a proficient weather forecaster.

What is your degree in?

[Bobby]

Oh great another my educational penis is bigger than yours sidetrack.....

[eduggs]

What is your degree in?

Engineering.

[LocoAko]

Well said.

I don't mean to suggest that the entire degree is equivalent to one month's reading, just the meteorology specific aspects. Dif Eq, multivariable calc, physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics etc.. are not met specific. They don't teach you how to forecast the weather.

I suppose you could take this view, although "meteorologist" != "forecaster", something a lot of people here don't seem to take in. Since this thread is about forecasting ability, though, you're right. In fact, while Synoptic and Mesoscale are forecasting classes, it is hard to teach someone to forecast. And while Calc I-III and Diff Eq. aren't met specific, you do need them to understanad the material in Dynamics, Phys Met, Synoptic, etc. which are meteorology specific. So yeah, I don't think you can just exclude them that easily.

Also, just FWIW, my Thermodynamics course was meteorology based. While it covered the basics, we touched on saturation, LCL, potential and other forms of instability, etc. My dad is an engineer and there were some similarities but a lot of differences between our coursework. I understand your point, but I'd definitely bold Thermodynamics. Just because another major may require a class with the same basic concepts doesn't mean it isn't related to learning atmospheric science and/or forecasting...

[Sundog]

Engineering.

What do you do exactly? Is your degree in any way used by your job? How many courses exactly do you need to actually execute your tasks?

[eduggs]

I suppose you could take this view, although "meteorologist" != "forecaster", something a lot of people here don't seem to take in. Since this thread is about forecasting ability, though, you're right. In fact, while Synoptic and Mesoscale are forecasting classes, it is hard to teach someone to forecast. And while Calc I-III and Diff Eq. aren't met specific, you do need them to understanad the material in Dynamics, Phys Met, Synoptic, etc. which are meteorology specific. So yeah, I don't think you can just exclude them that easily.

Also, just FWIW, my Thermodynamics course was meteorology based. While it covered the basics, we touched on saturation, LCL, potential and other forms of instability, etc. My dad is an engineer and there were some similarities but a lot of differences between our coursework. I understand your point, but I'd definitely bold Thermodynamics. Just because another major may require a class with the same basic concepts doesn't mean it isn't related to learning atmospheric science and/or forecasting...

Agreed.

[eduggs]

What do you do exactly? Is your degree in any way used by your job? How many courses exactly do you need to actually execute your tasks?

My degree helped me get employment but I can't point to any particular undergrad coursework and say it was essential to my day to day work. I would hazard a guess that this is typical.

[danstorm]

I always get **** for saying this, but an undergrad met degree does not make you a Meteorologist. It's roughly equivalent to 1 months worth of text book reading for the average person.

You shouldn't get **** for saying that... because I TA'd quite a few undergrads while getting my MS at PSU and it is like anything else... there are some excellent students who really understand the concepts and others who scrape by with Cs.

But, might I also add that having a graduate degree - even a PhD - does not necessarily make you a good meteorologist or forecaster at all... perhaps very skilled in computer programming or a very good mathematician OR educated in one subspecialty like cloud physics parameterization... but you'd be surprised how many of my classmates at the graduate level couldn't tell you what a convergence zone was or how to discern PVA or 850 frontogenesis or even where to start when it came to interpreting computer models.

I'd say Earthlight could out-forecast all of them, including myself, despite his non-redtag status. ; )

[NorthShoreWx]

I always get **** for saying this, but an undergrad met degree does not make you a Meteorologist. It's roughly equivalent to 1 months worth of text book reading for the average person.

Here's some more ****. That is a ridiculous statement. I hope it was a joke.

[jasonli18t]

Here's some more ****. That is a rediculous statement. I hope it was a joke.

Apparently you didn't focus on your spelling studies but I do agree with your point.

[NorthShoreWx]

Apparently you didn't focus on your spelling studies but I do agree with your point.

If you only knew how many typos I go back and edit. Somehow I missed that one. Edit made.

[dg12x]

You shouldn't get **** for saying that... because I TA'd quite a few undergrads while getting my MS at PSU and it is like anything else... there are some excellent students who really understand the concepts and others who scrape by with Cs.

But, might I also add that having a graduate degree - even a PhD - does not necessarily make you a good meteorologist or forecaster at all... perhaps very skilled in computer programming or a very good mathematician OR educated in one subspecialty like cloud physics parameterization... but you'd be surprised how many of my classmates at the graduate level couldn't tell you what a convergence zone was or how to discern PVA or 850 frontogenesis or even where to start when it came to interpreting computer models.

I'd say Earthlight could out-forecast all of them, including myself, despite his non-redtag status. ; )

Spot on. Important for everyone to realize that just because you are a degreed meterologist, it doesn't make you a a great forecaster by any stretch. There are some who really grasp the higher level dynamics of meteorology but have trouble forecasting. And of course others who struggle with the math/physics, but are fantastic at pattern recognition, model interpretation, etc...

If you're a degreed in meteorology, I'd consider you a meteorologist. However, if you're posting a forecast on here with your red tag, it'd be helpful to try to give more insight behind your thoughts/predictions as many already do.

[Quincy]

Work experience or an advanced degree/research experience.

Good point.

I think that there has to be either some relevant work experience AS A METEOROLOGIST and/or some real research with the atmospheric sciences. no offense to people I had classes with, but many are far from what I would consider a "professional meteorologist".

[JSchwake28]

You shouldn't get **** for saying that... because I TA'd quite a few undergrads while getting my MS at PSU and it is like anything else... there are some excellent students who really understand the concepts and others who scrape by with Cs.

But, might I also add that having a graduate degree - even a PhD - does not necessarily make you a good meteorologist or forecaster at all... perhaps very skilled in computer programming or a very good mathematician OR educated in one subspecialty like cloud physics parameterization... but you'd be surprised how many of my classmates at the graduate level couldn't tell you what a convergence zone was or how to discern PVA or 850 frontogenesis or even where to start when it came to interpreting computer models.

I'd say Earthlight could out-forecast all of them, including myself, despite his non-redtag status. ; )

Couldn't agree more! I'm graduating with a meteorology degree this spring from penn state and I know plenty of people graduating with me with absolutely no desire to forecast. There are so many options that you can choose in meteorology, and forecasting is just one of many. In the most humbly way I think of myself as a good forecaster, I ended up 3rd in my forecasting class and for those that know what the WxChallenge is I finished 19th overall last year. But that's just what my interest is, I know numerous people who know much more about cloud physics, radiation, air quality, programming, etc. And I respect these people as much if not more than me. We've gone through the same core classes and it eventually comes down to what you prefer and you take those classes. I have some very close friends that aren't even going to take a single forecasting class and they'll graduate with a meteorology degree. But those people won't go out looking for a forecasting job. So, at least to me, I think if you graduate with a meteorology degree then you are considered a meteorologist, just in different aspects than what the general population thinks a meteorologist is.

[phlwx]

You shouldn't get **** for saying that... because I TA'd quite a few undergrads while getting my MS at PSU and it is like anything else... there are some excellent students who really understand the concepts and others who scrape by with Cs.

But, might I also add that having a graduate degree - even a PhD - does not necessarily make you a good meteorologist or forecaster at all... perhaps very skilled in computer programming or a very good mathematician OR educated in one subspecialty like cloud physics parameterization... but you'd be surprised how many of my classmates at the graduate level couldn't tell you what a convergence zone was or how to discern PVA or 850 frontogenesis or even where to start when it came to interpreting computer models.

I'd say Earthlight could out-forecast all of them, including myself, despite his non-redtag status. ; )

This.

Some folks can analyze data, climate, and features in the atmosphere and can forecast weather but may suck at calculus and couldn't get the vaunted met degree. It doesn't, to me, mean that their input is invalid or less worthy than someone who has a degree but can't accurately read a BUFKIT or understand the basics of forecasting.

I have tons of respect for the research wing of the weather community -- they may not forecast per se as a living but they provide forecasters, hobbyists, and operational forecast meteorologists a ton of wealth and knowledge.

[Grothar]

Here's some more ****. That is a ridiculous statement. I hope it was a joke.

I disagree with his statement as well. Science is not engineering, even though they may overlap in some areas. The big issue is that many engineering schools do not require a thesis for their MS degree. A thesis is what makes or breaks a good meteorologist in my opinion, even though there are good amateur forecasters on this board. I think the board should have a blue tag indicating those with related degrees but with interest in meteorology. For example , I have a degree in physical geography. Meteorology back in the 80's was usually place with the geography departments as a concentration. I was also license as an air traffic controller in the Navy which required a flight certification. I have a passion for forecasting but I am not a meteorologist. I received this from my uncle who was the head regional meteorologist in the western US. I am sure there are others on this board with related backgrounds.

[catoctin wx]

As has been mentioned in this thread, meteorologist does not mean forecaster. It may not be the popular opinion, but I don't think that just because someone is a degreed meteorologist, that it should be assumed that they are a qualified forecaster. An undergrad degree gives you the skills you need in order to become a forecaster, but I don't know many people fresh out of college who are great at it.

Meteorologists work in all kinds of jobs, not just forecasting, but that doesn't make those of us less of a meteorologist.

[catoctin wx]

Couldn't agree more! I'm graduating with a meteorology degree this spring from penn state and I know plenty of people graduating with me with absolutely no desire to forecast. There are so many options that you can choose in meteorology, and forecasting is just one of many. In the most humbly way I think of myself as a good forecaster, I ended up 3rd in my forecasting class and for those that know what the WxChallenge is I finished 19th overall last year. But that's just what my interest is, I know numerous people who know much more about cloud physics, radiation, air quality, programming, etc. And I respect these people as much if not more than me. We've gone through the same core classes and it eventually comes down to what you prefer and you take those classes. I have some very close friends that aren't even going to take a single forecasting class and they'll graduate with a meteorology degree. But those people won't go out looking for a forecasting job. So, at least to me, I think if you graduate with a meteorology degree then you are considered a meteorologist, just in different aspects than what the general population thinks a meteorologist is.

great post, couldn't agree more. There are plenty of jobs that meteorologists work that don't come anywhere near, or have any connection to forecasting.

[MacChump]

great post, couldn't agree more. There are plenty of jobs that meteorologists work that don't come anywhere near, or have any connection to forecasting.

But at some point isn't more required than just a degree? I'd say you have to be doing something at least related to the field in order to be called a meteorologist.

I have a degree in biology - but my profession is a lawyer...it would never even remotely occur to me to call myself a biologist...