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Jan 11-12 Model/Forecasting Discussion


Ji

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The PV has been the crusher all season long. The very thing that is keeping us from torching is what kills our shots.

The PV has not been crushing things... NYC just got 20" of snow how did that happen if the PV was suppressing things south of us???? Truth is the PV is almost always further north then the models will show it from 5 days out. If the PV is the only problem I think we will end up ok. The problem with the 2 previous storms was timing issues with the phase NOT the PV.

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The PV has not been crushing things... NYC just got 20" of snow how did that happen if the PV was suppressing things south of us???? Truth is the PV is almost always further north then the models will show it from 5 days out. If the PV is the only problem I think we will end up ok. The problem with the 2 previous storms was timing issues with the phase NOT the PV.

Not completely true. part of the phasing problems for here with the decd 26 storm was the PV hanging in too long to allow the flow to back enough to hold the low closer to the coast. Once it moves a little farther east the flow could back and the phasing occurred. If you look at the 12Z gfs, it's shearing that second shortwave as it approaches us which doesn't allow the flow to back quickly enough to pull the southern low northward enough to get. At least that's my opinion.

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The PV has not been crushing things... NYC just got 20" of snow how did that happen if the PV was suppressing things south of us???? Truth is the PV is almost always further north then the models will show it from 5 days out. If the PV is the only problem I think we will end up ok. The problem with the 2 previous storms was timing issues with the phase NOT the PV.

Not worth arguing over. We all know your analysis of everything is always correct.

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There is a huge disconnect between the best H5 energy and the surface. Initially there is good reason for this because the first vort races out ahead, sparks a low, but then washes out. The thing is later on the models fail to consolidate things around the best upper level support. This is a common model error. Often the models fail to conserve energy and bundle it and leave it way too diffuse. This allows too much energy to escape east and thus a bogus storm track and less intisity at day 5 then reality. This smacks of that kind of situation. Of course the problem is this does not work everytime. We saw it work in December last year, and again in February. We saw it fail in early march when the models were correct in seeing that timing would be off and the phase would take too long to consolidate energy and the low would escape. There is no way to really know but this is something models do a lot and often times when we get inside 72 hours they start to consolidate the energy more and you see the second wave become stronger and the first steals less energy to the east. This is not a bad spot to be at 100 hours out.

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Not completely true. part of the phasing problems for here with the decd 26 storm was the PV hanging in too long to allow the flow to back enough to hold the low closer to the coast. Once it moves a little farther east the flow could back and the phasing occurred. If you look at the 12Z gfs, it's shearing that second shortwave as it approaches us which doesn't allow the flow to back quickly enough to pull the southern low northward enough to get. At least that's my opinion.

Thanks, Wes. You explained it way better than my over-simplification

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Really good agreement between the GFS and Euro... its really just the strength and timing of the PAC NW and southern energy that will drive the solution. HPC was right, with no energy coming from Canada modeling will be more consistent.

both these features will be onshore tomorrow.

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Not too dissimilar to the GFS Ensemble mean that mitchnik posted a few pages back.

Looks like we get our/DC precip with the upper trough/vort as it swings through. The storm track is still too far to the east for us to get a big hit. Still it's way out there in time so the movement of the various players are likely to change several more times as we approach the event.

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Not completely true. part of the phasing problems for here with the decd 26 storm was the PV hanging in too long to allow the flow to back enough to hold the low closer to the coast. Once it moves a little farther east the flow could back and the phasing occurred. If you look at the 12Z gfs, it's shearing that second shortwave as it approaches us which doesn't allow the flow to back quickly enough to pull the southern low northward enough to get. At least that's my opinion.

Oh I agree the problem on the models right now for this storm is the PV. I am just saying with the last storm our problem was not so much the PV. With the Dec 26th storm you are right but that was a whiff for everyone. I do think the PV will probably relax more then the models will show at this range.

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From FootHillsNC in the southern

That vortex is long gone and serves to keep the southern stream on a good track, climo speaking. Its really not hurting us I don't think, it wil act to keep this from going to DC. In my opinon, NC and northern SC will do about as well as any place else, I'm not going by the verbatim output either (alhtough .75" pretty widespread is nothing to sneeze at). With the lingering inverted trough, NC may in fact be the snowiest state when all is said and done. I really like the trends, and couldn't have hoped for better run.

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Not completely true. part of the phasing problems for here with the decd 26 storm was the PV hanging in too long to allow the flow to back enough to hold the low closer to the coast. Once it moves a little farther east the flow could back and the phasing occurred. If you look at the 12Z gfs, it's shearing that second shortwave as it approaches us which doesn't allow the flow to back quickly enough to pull the southern low northward enough to get. At least that's my opinion.

Looks like we get our/DC precip with the upper trough/vort as it swings through. The storm track is still too far to the east for us to get a big hit. Still it's way out there in time so the movement of the various players are likely to change several more times as we approach the event.

Thank you Wes for providing some sanity in here. :thumbsup:

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