NYC Plowing (or lack of) Discussion

[Isotherm]

Tim, great post. Couldn't agree more that the main problem was the nature of the storm itself. People have been spoiled b/c it's been a very, very long time since we've been literally snowed in our houses more than 2-3 hours after a storm was over. The combination of lack of preparation due to it being a holiday, short notice of the storm, a ton of people driving around (thus all the stranded cars on highways and parked on streets), the heavy snowfall rates for 6-10 hours, strong winds in excess of 40mph, etc, all created a whirlwind, perfect storm of ingredients to essentially cripple the area. I can't remember the 96 blizzard, but this is the first time I've seen roads snow coverd for 24 hours after a storm. I'm sure you know 537, the county road which goes from Colts Neck SW through Freehold, etc, is almost always plowed out literally as soon as the snow stops. With this storm -- it was still snow covered 24 hours later. People like us who realize the power of weather and conditions we experienced during this storm should not be surprised w/ what happened. BTW, this storm has got me interested in possibly plowing next winter.

[canderson]

I just got back to PA from visiting friends in Queens and seeing Time Stands Still at 48th @ 6th.. As an outsider yet very frequent NYC visitor, I can say it is so obvious the city is using most all resources for tourists and not residents. Case in point: the giant dump trucks working around Rockefeller Center and in Times Square.

Good luck to you guys.

[Sundog]

at this point we can agree...and this has just turn into a stone throwing contest.......have happy new year......and hope for snow

Indeed. Happy New Year to you as well. Hopefully we can squeeze out a couple inches later this weekend.

[BxEngine]

Hopefully we can squeeze out a couple inches later this weekend.

dude...really dont need to know about you and your significant other's new years resolutions.

[Sundog]

dude...really dont need to know about you and your significant other's new years resolutions.

You know, I knew that sounded vulnerable to joking when I wrote that Iol

[gymengineer]

Final comment on NYC's snow removal issues.

In coming weeks, I believe the City needs to seriously examine what happened and then develop approaches and perhaps revise resource allocations to remedy the major issues. Making the declaration of a snow emergency and robust enforcement automatic in advance of any storm expected to dump 10" or more snow is an easy fix. Suspending train service when the snow reaches a certain depth is also a relatively easy fix. Rigorously identifying what services are truly critical and those that are not and then adjusting resource and manpower allocations to focus on those services will probably be politically contentious, even as that exercise is necessary. Creating a better communications process that allows for relevant information to reach City Hall on a timely basis and also devising strategies for communicating accurate information to the public will probably take some time. The blizzard should be viewed as an opportunity to improve critical city services and inform planning/resource allocation decisions. If that opportunity is seized, then the City will emerge better for it. If, on the other hand, the storm is treated as an isolated and rare event, the City will almost certainly be caught unprepared in the face of another emergency, natural or otherwise.

Did you see this gem of a quote from a spokesman for the transportation commisioner? "“As of about 5 p.m. on Christmas Day, the forecast called for about a foot of accumulation, which is not uncommon and which is not a basis for a snow emergency declaration.”

Wow.

[Sundog]

Did you see this gem of a quote from a spokesman for the transportation commisioner? "“As of about 5 p.m. on Christmas Day, the forecast called for about a foot of accumulation, which is not uncommon and which is not a basis for a snow emergency declaration.”

Wow.

That forecast he quoted was BS anyway. By 5PM blizzard warnings were already in place. If you don't hoist a snow emergency for a blizzard warning you never will.

[mempho]

in a big snow it can actually be a bad idea... wind probaly helped here but saw plenty of wipers broken off cars last yr here with the wet stuff

Well, most of our larger snows (which are somewhat rare) are wet, so thanks for the heads up.

[mempho]

I'll just say one thing. We pay a crapload of taxes and expect a certain level of service, the service we've had for the last 15 years. We didn't get that service this go around, yet I didn't get a discount. It's not about entitlement. We pay for a service and we expect that service to be executed properly.

Well, we get basically nothing for our tax dollars here, so I'm impressed you actually feel that you got a service.

[Sock Puppet]

Here, read this

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/30/nyregion/30response.html

Do you think Bloomberg and his team of advisors are watching the 18z GFS on Christmas Eve? They rely on the weather stations on TV and possibly a private source..all of which were saying the storm was going out to sea (even if they went technical and checked with HPC they would have been told the initialization errors were skewing the models lol). I literally watched every newscast and they all said the storm would be a glancing blow.

Okay then, problem solved I guess? You now understand why they were slower to plow your street. Why continue to talk about it?

There's a real sense of entitlement reading through this thread about the plows, the plowers, and the expectations of your street getting plowed at a certain time and honestly I can understand why some who were working in the business are probably getting defensive about the entire thing.

That being said--the city needs to have a plan in place for storms like this where they can act quickly and be able to handle these kinds of things. The response was slow and should have been better. But you can't blame them for the budget cuts, nor can you blame them for what the actual weather-people said and what the models showed 24 hours before the time usual preparations would begin.

Weird thread. Lots of high-horse type opinions running around. Everyone should just relax and enjoy the snow.

[simpsonsbuff]

Did you see this gem of a quote from a spokesman for the transportation commisioner? "“As of about 5 p.m. on Christmas Day, the forecast called for about a foot of accumulation, which is not uncommon and which is not a basis for a snow emergency declaration.”

Wow.

I'm not going to get into the political debate here, but this "about a foot of accumulation" is just wrong. In fact, the 4:12 NWS forecast discussion was going for 15-20 inches with the possibility of 2 feet. You can look it up. Of course, maybe, they were calling Janice Huff at her home.

[nzucker]

Do you think Bloomberg and his team of advisors are watching the 18z GFS on Christmas Eve? They rely on the weather stations on TV and possibly a private source..all of which were saying the storm was going out to sea (even if they went technical and checked with HPC they would have been told the initialization errors were skewing the models lol). I literally watched every newscast and they all said the storm would be a glancing blow.

Okay then, problem solved I guess? You now understand why they were slower to plow your street. Why continue to talk about it?

There's a real sense of entitlement reading through this thread about the plows, the plowers, and the expectations of your street getting plowed at a certain time and honestly I can understand why some who were working in the business are probably getting defensive about the entire thing.

That being said--the city needs to have a plan in place for storms like this where they can act quickly and be able to handle these kinds of things. The response was slow and should have been better. But you can't blame them for the budget cuts, nor can you blame them for what the actual weather-people said and what the models showed 24 hours before the time usual preparations would begin.

Weird thread. Lots of high-horse type opinions running around. Everyone should just relax and enjoy the snow.

John, you and I are on the same page; people are much too entitled and always want to get back into their precious cars as soon as the storm ends. This was a true blizzard that takes days to clean up, and people have to be patient and understand that. It was also a poorly forecasted storm that developed on one of the biggest national holidays, Christmas, further cutting preparation and people's general knowledge of the storm coming as everyone was so busy with holiday plans. Winds and drifting were exceptionally high for a NYC snow event, along with cold temperatures allowing the snow to stick instantly, so it was a more difficult storm to manage. I agree that emergency services should have had better access to the city, and that Bloomberg's comments are arrogant, lacking in understanding...but we do need to realize NYC is a tough place to clean up, these are tough economic times, and it was a surprise storm the day after XMAS.

Tim, great post. Couldn't agree more that the main problem was the nature of the storm itself. People have been spoiled b/c it's been a very, very long time since we've been literally snowed in our houses more than 2-3 hours after a storm was over. The combination of lack of preparation due to it being a holiday, short notice of the storm, a ton of people driving around (thus all the stranded cars on highways and parked on streets), the heavy snowfall rates for 6-10 hours, strong winds in excess of 40mph, etc, all created a whirlwind, perfect storm of ingredients to essentially cripple the area. I can't remember the 96 blizzard, but this is the first time I've seen roads snow coverd for 24 hours after a storm. I'm sure you know 537, the county road which goes from Colts Neck SW through Freehold, etc, is almost always plowed out literally as soon as the snow stops. With this storm -- it was still snow covered 24 hours later. People like us who realize the power of weather and conditions we experienced during this storm should not be surprised w/ what happened. BTW, this storm has got me interested in possibly plowing next winter.

We actually got plowed out fast in Westchester but we only received 13". There were slippery road conditions until last night, however, as it was very difficult to plow and salt all the side streets. People also make a good point that additional cars parked on side streets for holiday visits impeded the operation.

[SP]

I hope this mornings news about the Unions deliberately screwing the outer boroughs is false.

It appears this was a Union protest to budget cuts.

Here is a snip:

The snitches "didn't want to be identified because they were afraid of retaliation," Halloran said. "They were told [by supervisors] to take off routes [and] not do the plowing of some of the major arteries in a timely manner. They were told to make the mayor pay for the layoffs, the reductions in rank for the supervisors, shrinking the rolls of the rank-and-file."

Read more: http://www.nypost.co...K#ixzz19bSoKvE4

Once again I hope this is proven to be false because the ramifications if it is true will be staggering for the Unions, opening the door nice and wide for everything from pension reforms to privatization.

This picture tells the story of why the dig out takes so long..........be it in NYC or Asbury Park.

[nynjpaweather]

I hope this mornings news about the Unions deliberately screwing the outer boroughs is false.

It appears this was a Union protest to budget cuts.

Here is a snip:

The snitches "didn't want to be identified because they were afraid of retaliation," Halloran said. "They were told [by supervisors] to take off routes [and] not do the plowing of some of the major arteries in a timely manner. They were told to make the mayor pay for the layoffs, the reductions in rank for the supervisors, shrinking the rolls of the rank-and-file."

Read more: http://www.nypost.co...K#ixzz19bSoKvE4

Once again I hope this is proven to be false because the ramifications if it is true will be staggering for the Unions, opening the door nice and wide for everything from pension reforms to privatization.

Good, I hope so. Unions in this country are becoming just as much a problem as large corporations that think they are above the rules. In a way, they are becoming one in the same.

[BxEngine]

I hope this mornings news about the Unions deliberately screwing the outer boroughs is false.

It appears this was a Union protest to budget cuts.

Here is a snip:

The snitches "didn't want to be identified because they were afraid of retaliation," Halloran said. "They were told [by supervisors] to take off routes [and] not do the plowing of some of the major arteries in a timely manner. They were told to make the mayor pay for the layoffs, the reductions in rank for the supervisors, shrinking the rolls of the rank-and-file."

Read more: http://www.nypost.co...K#ixzz19bSoKvE4

Once again I hope this is proven to be false because the ramifications if it is true will be staggering for the Unions, opening the door nice and wide for everything from pension reforms to privatization.

lol the Post is a notorious anti union paper....when they reveal their "sources" maybe Ill believe it. "it appears" based on an unnamed source? Really? So Bloomberg and OEM are off the hook?

So since the FD did such a great job, using that logic...do we get more in our pensions?

[IrishRob17]

I hope this mornings news about the Unions deliberately screwing the outer boroughs is false.

It appears this was a Union protest to budget cuts.

Here is a snip:

The snitches "didn't want to be identified because they were afraid of retaliation," Halloran said. "They were told [by supervisors] to take off routes [and] not do the plowing of some of the major arteries in a timely manner. They were told to make the mayor pay for the layoffs, the reductions in rank for the supervisors, shrinking the rolls of the rank-and-file."

Read more: http://www.nypost.co...K#ixzz19bSoKvE4

Once again I hope this is proven to be false because the ramifications if it is true will be staggering for the Unions, opening the door nice and wide for everything from pension reforms to privatization.

I heard this mentioned on Tuesday morning on Fox 5 but had not heard anything else until now. Maybe the story has legs.

[BxEngine]

I heard this mentioned on Tuesday morning on Fox 5 but had not heard anything else until now. Maybe the story has legs.

To be honest....it wouldnt surprise me if some disgruntled members took it upon themselves to act like that....but even according to people here....the much more likely scenario was the impact of the storm and the lack of manpower. funny, the timing of this story though, no?

[real]

I heard this mentioned on Tuesday morning on Fox 5 but had not heard anything else until now. Maybe the story has legs.

It's the NY POST take with severe grain of salt.

In all likeliehood, Bloomberg put someone up to it to tell that story to Post to try to divert attention from the NY Times story about his failings. The whole premise of NY Post story seems far-fetched. Bloombergs's failings are much easier documented by NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/30/nyregion/30response.html?_r=1&hp

[IrishRob17]

To be honest....it wouldnt surprise me if some disgruntled members took it upon themselves to act like that....but even according to people here....the much more likely scenario was the impact of the storm and the lack of manpower. funny, the timing of this story though, no?

I don't think that the problem can be pinned on just one thing. I think all of the issues (lack of manpower, severity of the storm, people not realizing how big the storm was going to be because they were busy with Christmas, etc, etc) all contributed to the huge mess. I think too that once a street has 18-24" of snow on it it's not always as easy as just running a garbage truck with a plow on the front through it.

[BxEngine]

It's the NY POST take with severe grain of salt.

In all likeliehood, Bloomberg put someone up to it to tell that story to Post to try to divert attention from the NY Times story about his failings. The whole premise of NY Post story seems far-fetched. Bloombergs's failings are much easier documented by NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.c...se.html?_r=1

It would seem to be typical Bloomberg spin...(even if the story does have merit).

[IrishRob17]

It's the NY POST take with severe grain of salt.

In all likeliehood, Bloomberg put someone up to it to tell that story to Post to try to divert attention from the NY Times story about his failings. The whole premise of NY Post story seems far-fetched. Bloombergs's failings are much easier documented by NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.c...se.html?_r=1

When I first heard this mentioned it was Tuesday morning by a TV anchor on the local Fox 5 morning news show. I'm not saying that it's true or false just that now I've heard it from two different sources.

[BxEngine]

I don't think that the problem can be pinned on just one thing. I think all of the issues (lack of manpower, severity of the storm, people not realizing how big the storm was going to be because they were busy with Christmas, etc, etc) all contributed to the huge mess. I think too that once a street has 18-24" of snow on it it's not always as easy as just running a garbage truck with a plow on the front through it.

definitely....which is why I tried to make clear last night my "anger" wasnt really with the plowing....it was the overall response and the lack of common sense and tact shown by Bloomberg. But like I said....even if the story about sanitation IS true...it doesnt negate the fact that NYC screwed the pooch with this, before, during, and after the storm.

But again...the timing of the story isnt shocking at all. We were also supposed to find out this week which 20 firehouses were to be closed at night. How well do you think that would go over with the extended response times faced overnight during the storm? I know it sounds alittle conspiracy theory-ish.....but its been Bloombergs (and certain anti union papers) M.O. to time stories to feed their needs.

[ArtRosen]

It only took 41 years for the next Lindsay Storm... aka Bloomberg storm of 2010... Seriously, didn't Lindsay loose the election the following year b/c of that storm?? Anyway- Bloomberg probably doesn't really care..

How could no plow have come through yet?? Isn't this suppose one of the greatest city's on earth?? wtf?

Let's hope Bloomberg isn't stupid enough to drive his limo into queens.......!!!

[IrishRob17]

definitely....which is why I tried to make clear last night my "anger" wasnt really with the plowing....it was the overall response and the lack of common sense and tact shown by Bloomberg. But like I said....even if the story about sanitation IS true...it doesnt negate the fact that NYC screwed the pooch with this, before, during, and after the storm.

But again...the timing of the story isnt shocking at all. We were also supposed to find out this week which 20 firehouses were to be closed at night. How well do you think that would go over with the extended response times faced overnight during the storm? I know it sounds alittle conspiracy theory-ish.....but its been Bloombergs (and certain anti union papers) M.O. to time stories to feed their needs.

Agree 100% and I had no doubt that there's spin being put on all of this, so there's been no mention of the firehouses or when an announcement will be made?

[Sundog]

The Post may as well be the National Enquirer. I used to get a free copy delivered to my school. I swear to you not a day went by, not one, where they didn't bash teachers. And not just bash, they painted us to be almost criminal. How nice of them to send free copies to an NYC public school.

They were also the paper that wrote how the mosque in downtown Manhattan was going to celebrate it's grand opening on 9/11/11, on the 10th anniversary, according to "sources."

[ArtRosen]

It's the NY POST take with severe grain of salt.

In all likeliehood, Bloomberg put someone up to it to tell that story to Post to try to divert attention from the NY Times story about his failings. The whole premise of NY Post story seems far-fetched. Bloombergs's failings are much easier documented by NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.c...se.html?_r=1

Isn't it interesting how the article quotes the HWO, which up until snow was on the ground, kept saying that the models were wrong??

[BxEngine]

Agree 100% and I had no doubt that there's spin being put on all of this, so there's been no mention of the firehouses or when an announcement will be made?

Nope...the law is the community boards have to be notified 45 days before closure (thanks to another ex asshat mayor who closed a company by sending them out on a false alarm on Superbowl sunday, only to return to quarters to find their firehouse chained shut!)..and the closures were supposed to happen Feb1st or 8th. So either they delayed it because they knew the outcry it would cause....or they found another loophole (if its rolling blackouts, maybe the community boards dont have to be notified? Wouldnt surprise me).

[NEXtreme]

This is some pretty evil sh!t !!

People died, among the victims of this crime: A newborn baby died after waiting nine hours for paramedics to arrive.These jobs pay well and don’t require much intelligence nor much training. Class Action lawsuit is in order. Sue the workers, union, and mayor. The unions have become the exploiters they once stood against. Their victims are the public who pays their wages and salaries and bloated pensions. Absolute power corrupts absolutely…politicians and unions…out for themselves on our dime…lives are lost and for what? Money…yours and mine…There should be no public sector unions. PERIOD!!! Perhaps this will be a “teaching moment” for the municipal

[BxEngine]

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/12/30/2010-12-30_blizzard_of_2010_forecasts_were_fuzzy_buses_were_bungled_plows_were_pathetic__ma.html?page=2

[BxEngine]

This is some pretty evil sh!t !!

People died, among the victims of this crime: A newborn baby died after waiting nine hours for paramedics to arrive.These jobs pay well and don’t require much intelligence nor much training. Class Action lawsuit is in order. Sue the workers, union, and mayor. The unions have become the exploiters they once stood against. Their victims are the public who pays their wages and salaries and bloated pensions. Absolute power corrupts absolutely…politicians and unions…out for themselves on our dime…lives are lost and for what? Money…yours and mine…There should be no public sector unions. PERIOD!!!:gun_bandana:Perhaps this will be a “teaching moment” for the municipal

whoever wrote that should consider participating in a darwin award type exercise.