NYC Plowing (or lack of) Discussion

[BxEngine]

I work for the MTA.The morons sent trains out in conditions that they knew were going to get the trains stuck DESPITE Train Operators urging them to cancel the trips.,which they did.Thankfully nobody died or was seriously injured.

People DID die. Right as the mayor was saying everyone was overreacting and the city was fine, in fact.

[Allsnow]

I didn't mention plowing at all. I merely commented on your defending of an out of touch mayor. There is no "whether he was right or wrong"...he was wrong..flat out. Watch the ENTIRE newsconference...then watch yesterdays. You'll see what we are getting at.

I have my opion and you have urs.....im sure if you came to the town i work in and try to defend somthing the mayor said i would feel the way u feel...

[Ridingtime]

Can we split this thread into a discussion about the horrible plowing job that occurred in NYC and get back to the blizzard pics? I was enjoying all the cool pics in this thread until we got off course.

[rygar]

Back to pics - truly awesome and incredible. Can't believe how much snow NW Jersey has missed out on the last two seasons.

[BxEngine]

going from 4 to 3 on a eng company......dont know where that is at yet though

5 to 4. Hasn't happened yet. Weird how the list of firehouse closings was supposed to be out this week. Can you guess WHY that list hasn't appeared yet?

[CAT5ANDREW]

<br />Thanks andrew...i just dont liek the fact people complaining that they should have plowed with the storm and etc...that was next to impossible.....in no way am i going to agree with that you tube video as that was just plain dumb........but obviously there has been a long line of instance with bloomburg........all i stated was the fact that i can see why he would tell people to come into the city.. if it was right or wrong.....and Don i agree that the city was very unprepared.....i just think a few posters dont understand that a garbage truck with a plow on it is not going to do a city street with 4 feet of snow....and that had alot to do with the slow response time to side streets...which goes back to ur poit of being unprepared<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Just today I saw 4 snowplows get stuck trying to plow the streets in my area.THe snow on side streets is a 10-12 inch base of rock hard packed ice.Salt is barely helping as well.

[Allsnow]

People DID die. Right as the mayor was saying everyone was overreacting and the city was fine, in fact.

I believe that being ur in public safety you see a whole diff side of the city...somthing bloomy is not going to do on tv and air out the dirty laundry and set people in panic..

[BxEngine]

I believe that being ur in public safety you see a whole diff side of the city...somthing bloomy is not going to do on tv and air out the dirty laundry and set people in panic..

Of course not...but there is a difference bwtween being cautious about putting the city in a panic....and denying anything was wrong...which is exactly what he did.

[CAT5ANDREW]

<br />People DID die. Right as the mayor was saying everyone was overreacting and the city was fine, in fact.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

I meant nobody died on the A Train that was stranded for 10 hours near Acqeduct Racetrack and several Q,D L and N trains that were stranded thankfully.Thats terrible that people did die.

Look at it this way,Bloomberg has NO chance at a Presidency.This storm was his undoing.

[uncle W]

<br /><br /><br />

I meant nobody died on the A Train that was stranded for 10 hours near Acqeduct Racetrack and several Q,D L and N trains that were stranded thankfully.Thats terrible that people did die.

Look at it this way,Bloomberg has NO chance at a Presidency.This storm was his undoing.

na...I think buying a third term despite term limits makes him slime...But tha's for OT...We can call this storm the Bloombag storm...remember Mayor Lindsay became famous in 1969's plowing debacle...

[donsutherland1]

Final comment on NYC's snow removal issues.

In coming weeks, I believe the City needs to seriously examine what happened and then develop approaches and perhaps revise resource allocations to remedy the major issues. Making the declaration of a snow emergency and robust enforcement automatic in advance of any storm expected to dump 10" or more snow is an easy fix. Suspending train service when the snow reaches a certain depth is also a relatively easy fix. Rigorously identifying what services are truly critical and those that are not and then adjusting resource and manpower allocations to focus on those services will probably be politically contentious, even as that exercise is necessary. Creating a better communications process that allows for relevant information to reach City Hall on a timely basis and also devising strategies for communicating accurate information to the public will probably take some time. The blizzard should be viewed as an opportunity to improve critical city services and inform planning/resource allocation decisions. If that opportunity is seized, then the City will emerge better for it. If, on the other hand, the storm is treated as an isolated and rare event, the City will almost certainly be caught unprepared in the face of another emergency, natural or otherwise.

[CAT5ANDREW]

<br />na...I think buying a third term despite term limits makes him slime...But tha's for OT...We can call this storm the Bloombag storm...remember Mayor Lindsay became famous in 1969's plowing debacle...<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Mayor linsday was a nice man in a wrong position of leadership.Mayor Bloomberg is just a POS in every facet.

[Allsnow]

na...I think buying a third term despite term limits makes him slime...But tha's for OT...We can call this storm the Bloombag storm...remember Mayor Lindsay became famous in 1969's plowing debacle...

Chicago Mayor Michael Bilandic in the 1979 snowstorm basiclly lost him another term

.

Chicago prob now has the best snow removal operation for a major US city

[CAT5ANDREW]

<br />Final comment on NYC's snow removal issues.<br /><br />In coming weeks, I believe the City needs to seriously examine what happened and then develop approaches and perhaps revise resource allocations to remedy the major issues. Making the declaration of a snow emergency and robust enforcement automatic in advance of any storm expected to dump 10" or more snow is an easy fix. Suspending train service when the snow reaches a certain depth is also a relatively easy fix. Rigorously identifying what services are truly critical and those that are not and then adjusting resource and manpower allocations to focus on those services will probably be politically contentious, even as that exercise is necessary. Creating a better communications process that allows for relevant information to reach City Hall on a timely basis and also devising strategies for communicating accurate information to the public will probably take some time. The blizzard should be viewed as an opportunity to improve critical city services and inform planning/resource allocation decisions. If that opportunity is seized, then the City will emerge better for it. If, on the other hand, the storm is treated as an isolated and rare event, the City will almost certainly be caught unprepared in the face of another emergency, natural or otherwise.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Don,YOU would be an excellent Mayor,Governor or President.If you ran,you would definetly have my vote.

[SP]

It appears several issues have made this storm incredibly difficult to deal with, be it in NY or Neptune NJ...and most points in between.

1. The storm forecast went from out to sea to blizzard while no one was watching...for the most part. Christmas afternoon I began telling people what was coming and they looked at me like I had three heads. If the call for ALL CAPABLE workforce to report to work Sunday Morning did not go out on Christmas....it was game set and match IMO.

2. I agree with Don's point about snow emergency declaration not happening early enough, but in most areas it would not have made a difference.

3. Travel weekend....there are more cars at more houses through this past weekend than any other weekend beyond Thanksgiving. That means driveways are full as well on street parking. For those visiting, staying over etc....there was no place to put a car other then where it was.

4. Intense Travel weekend......people were driving around....day and night....back and forth...friends..family....whatever.....the roads were busy. Hence.....so many trying to escape the storm were caught locally. Things went from light accum snow to all out anarchy Sunday afternoon and if you got caught in it....and it lasted for HOURS AND HOURS.....you were SOL. Same goes for buses, cabs, snow plows, front end loaders, and most every other hvy equipment used to remove snow. The countless pictures of these crews being stuck and in need of rescue obviously became enough to eliminate most of the ongoing effort through the worst of the storm.

5. Workforce......it appears the available workers was about as light as it gets.....no one expected or frankly wanted to work Sunday......or were out of town traveling....whatever. It was tough getting the crews to show up in mass....let alone the right people to run the right equipment.

6. Not enough front loaders......you do not plow through 3-5ft of snow to clear it.....the battle for plowing was lost Sunday night during the height of the storm. At the very least first pass needs to be a front loader.....though there are some plow configs which can handle deep snow I doubt they exist is numbers in NYC let alone coastal NJ. I see them here in PA and they are fooking HUGE machines....monsters....but even here they need snow throwers to clear the PA TPK in some areas. I have also seen RT80 through the pass.....near blakeslee PA...remain closed for 2 days following the 93 super storm.

7. Though mentioned/inferred in other points.....in the end it is all about TIMING. Give us this storm on any weekend other than Christmas and things would have been a bit better....though the conditions Sunday night simply were too much for many areas and life becomes more important then clearing a road which will be again covered 30 minutes later.

It is frustrating.....I know...been through 78, a few in the 80's, 92 (shut down coastal Monmouth for 3 days...not cause of snow), 93 super storm in PA, 96 and everything else during the last 14 years. As weather weenies.....folks who constantly watch mother nature.....it is rather amusing to me to see so many people upset when WE OF ALL PEOPLE should understand what occurred Sunday and Monday. This is not about plows folks....there are not enough anywhere to keep up with the bulls-eye of this storm. It's about boundaries.....and mother nature just reminded us who gets to establish them.

BTW.....if your street is still covered....grab a shovel....crank up the snow blowers....gather your neighbors....and clear it....dig each other out......that is what our neighborhood did this storm as well many in the past. Heck, if you review the pictures on the web....many are of home grown shovel brigades who were able to tackle their streets and cars together....and in short order. I love the one of 4-5 snow throwers heading up a street with about 15 guys digging out cars.

Finally, I am not saying all public officials are without guilt here.....incompetence runs throughout all levels of govt. I just think they had the deck stacked so heavily against them there were no good answers.

I agree with Rendell......America has become way too soft.

[SP]

Final comment on NYC's snow removal issues.

In coming weeks, I believe the City needs to seriously examine what happened and then develop approaches and perhaps revise resource allocations to remedy the major issues. Making the declaration of a snow emergency and robust enforcement automatic in advance of any storm expected to dump 10" or more snow is an easy fix. Suspending train service when the snow reaches a certain depth is also a relatively easy fix. Rigorously identifying what services are truly critical and those that are not and then adjusting resource and manpower allocations to focus on those services will probably be politically contentious, even as that exercise is necessary. Creating a better communications process that allows for relevant information to reach City Hall on a timely basis and also devising strategies for communicating accurate information to the public will probably take some time. The blizzard should be viewed as an opportunity to improve critical city services and inform planning/resource allocation decisions. If that opportunity is seized, then the City will emerge better for it. If, on the other hand, the storm is treated as an isolated and rare event, the City will almost certainly be caught unprepared in the face of another emergency, natural or otherwise.

I agree but we already know what happen....at least from a high level view....see my recent post....I do agree the micro's need to be known but this storm was not just a TOP 10...it hit on Christmas Weekend!!!! Game Set and Match.

[Ian]

Well, I just learned something that probably seems epically stupid to you guys....but the windshield wiper problem has given me fits every time it snows down here and noone down here lifts them up...now I "know" a Yankee secret about dealing with snow.

in a big snow it can actually be a bad idea... wind probaly helped here but saw plenty of wipers broken off cars last yr here with the wet stuff

[eyewall]

The NYC sanitation video of the SUV being crunches is now up to 1.7 million views at last check:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt_r-jO3lKE

[strongwxnc]

Awesome Photos Folks!!

I would reply with those in this post, but you folks have posted to many that are awesome!!!

I will never know what a storm like that feels like where I live in NC. I live just east of the mountains where we do not get into heavy 1-2' snow fall with the wind that this stormed produced..

Thanks to all who posted shots.. They were Killer!!

[earthlight]

The models were turning to a major hit as early as Friday afternoon on the 18z runs.

Do you think Bloomberg and his team of advisors are watching the 18z GFS on Christmas Eve? They rely on the weather stations on TV and possibly a private source..all of which were saying the storm was going out to sea (even if they went technical and checked with HPC they would have been told the initialization errors were skewing the models lol). I literally watched every newscast and they all said the storm would be a glancing blow.

Even the department of sanitation came out and said they are very slow and inadequate because of budget cuts and employee layoffs.

Okay then, problem solved I guess? You now understand why they were slower to plow your street. Why continue to talk about it?

There's a real sense of entitlement reading through this thread about the plows, the plowers, and the expectations of your street getting plowed at a certain time and honestly I can understand why some who were working in the business are probably getting defensive about the entire thing.

That being said--the city needs to have a plan in place for storms like this where they can act quickly and be able to handle these kinds of things. The response was slow and should have been better. But you can't blame them for the budget cuts, nor can you blame them for what the actual weather-people said and what the models showed 24 hours before the time usual preparations would begin.

Weird thread. Lots of high-horse type opinions running around. Everyone should just relax and enjoy the snow.

[Sundog]

Do you think Bloomberg and his team of advisors are watching the 18z GFS on Christmas Eve? They rely on the weather stations on TV and possibly a private source..all of which were saying the storm was going out to sea (even if they went technical and checked with HPC they would have been told the initialization errors were skewing the models lol). I literally watched every newscast and they all said the storm would be a glancing blow.

Okay then, problem solved I guess? You now understand why they were slower to plow your street. Why continue to talk about it?

There's a real sense of entitlement reading through this thread about the plows, the plowers, and the expectations of your street getting plowed at a certain time and honestly I can understand why some who were working in the business are probably getting defensive about the entire thing.

That being said--the city needs to have a plan in place for storms like this where they can act quickly and be able to handle these kinds of things. The response was slow and should have been better. But you can't blame them for the budget cuts, nor can you blame them for what the actual weather-people said and what the models showed 24 hours before the time usual preparations would begin.

Weird thread. Lots of high-horse type opinions running around. Everyone should just relax and enjoy the snow.

I'll just say one thing. We pay a crapload of taxes and expect a certain level of service, the service we've had for the last 15 years. We didn't get that service this go around, yet I didn't get a discount. It's not about entitlement. We pay for a service and we expect that service to be executed properly. The news had up to a foot accumulation forecasted as of the Friday night 11pm news. Is 36 hours not enough time to gather a crew to prepare for the city? Are they flying the equipment in from another country or something?

Countries airlift fire equipment to neighboring countries and have it ready to be used in less time than that. I don't buy the there was not enough time excuse. They never forecast major amounts more than a day in advance even if they were tracking the storm. February 10th 2010 for example didn't have more than 90 hours lead time from when the low popped up on models. Big snows weren't forecasted until 36-48 hours prior and the highest amounts as usual didn't show up on the forecasts until 24 hours to game time.

[BxEngine]

Weird thread. Lots of high-horse type opinions running around. Everyone should just relax and enjoy the snow.

Like I said before...my issue isnt with the plowing really.....sanit. workers are probably THE hardest working civil servants around...they got stuck with a big bag of wtf this week. My issue (I cant speak for others, although I think its safe to assume they feel the same way) is the way Bloomberg handled himself to the media....and its an ongoing problem. He kept insisting there was no problem, and that everything was normal-literally as people were dying. If he had simply admitted the f*ck up from the start (which will never ever happen with this administration), I think people would have been much more forgiving about DSNYs problems. But instead, we got this:

[rgwp96]

Not in the coditions we had....this was not a normal storm....i plowed in one lot the whole night and could not see a darn thing...driving of small distances was horrible.....in the city side streets you have cars on both sides and a little lane to drive down......with 4 foot drifts down the midde, you need a loader for each street and  thats not somthing the city has for every street.If you really thought you where going to be plowed out the same day of that storm you where fooling urself.......not one person could keep up with that snowfall....unless you want to try and plow under those condition, i suggest you think twice before you touch on a topic you know nothing about

well i told you last year that if a storm like 96 came their would be problems and you said no way since plowing has advanced since than.  Guess i was right since it seems many areas are still having problems 3 days after the storm

[ag3]

well i told you last year that if a storm like 96 came their would be problems and you said no way since plowing has advanced since than.  Guess i was right since it seems many areas are still having problems 3 days after the storm

The handling of the plowing was much worse with this storm then 1996. I remember 1996 clearly. While the streets were a mess then too, the plows were up and down all side streets while it was snowing and continued non-stop for days. I didn't see a plow on my block until yesterday afternoon. Most streets are finally plowed at least once, 4 days later. Now the clearing of parking spots, bus stops and other essentials begin. 5 friggin days later.

[rgwp96]

The handling of the plowing was much worse with this storm then 1996. I remember 1996 clearly. While the streets were a mess then too, the plows were up and down all side streets while it was snowing and continued non-stop for days. I didn't see a plow on my block until yesterday afternoon. Most streets are finally plowed at least once, 4 days later. Now the clearing of parking spots, bus stops and other essentials begin. 5 friggin days later.

well that was part of our disagreement as well. He said we are more prepared these days and obviously we are not. This also proves how much bs that 2006 storm measurements were. 26 inches with hardly any disruptions., give me a break, look what 20 inches did.

[NorthShoreWx]

Like I said before...my issue isnt with the plowing really.....sanit. workers are probably THE hardest working civil servants around...they got stuck with a big bag of wtf this week. My issue (I cant speak for others, although I think its safe to assume they feel the same way) is the way Bloomberg handled himself to the media....and its an ongoing problem. He kept insisting there was no problem, and that everything was normal-literally as people were dying. If he had simply admitted the f*ck up from the start (which will never ever happen with this administration), I think people would have been much more forgiving about DSNYs problems. But instead, we got this:

And this:

[Allsnow]

well i told you last year that if a storm like 96 came their would be problems and you said no way since plowing has advanced since than. Guess i was right since it seems many areas are still having problems 3 days after the storm

You where right i never thought it would happen again.....but this storm did it....i just hate when people try to play monday morning qb and say this and that should have been done......the city was more prepared in 96 as that storm was being talk about for days....granted the snow amount went up late....but it did not go from 0-20 in a 48 hr span.......plus i believe 96 was a two day storm........conditions where bad but there was times during that storm crews where abel to get out and do what they had to.....this was a blitz of snow in less then a 24 hr period....mr greek and sundog love hugging 96 and comparing this and that...the fact of the matter is they dont understand a typical plow truck in nyc is not going to get down a road with 15 of snow or 5 ft drifts...you need loaders......i know they expect a certin amount of service.....but all the commercial accounts i have the owners where called explain the situation and then understood the extreme conditions and how getting the job done in a timely fashion would be diffcult....they are on this weather board and know what type conditions where coming...for them to think there road would have been done a few hrs after is stupity.....isotherm house is in colts neck....with one of the higest tax rate in the state of nj...and he was not plowed out until 24 hrs later....yet him being much younger then those two came on here as said he understand why it took so long....the same conditions in both his town and nyc.....dont give me the bs you cant compare.....the city was not organized with this...thats a given.....if they where you still would have had some unhappy people...it was just the nature of the storm...

I agree the city was unprepared from a combo of many diff factors......for sundog to say the xmass eve forcast had 12 in it at 1135pm is pretty poor lead time to organise a snow removal effort in the city, plus during the holiday....yet he seem he cant understand that or the fact why he was not plowed out just beause back in 96 everything was great.....now we have the other guy talking about snow at his bus stop....you just cant please everyone...and it it bothers him that much perhaps he should take a shovel to work 2morrow

[Allsnow]

well that was part of our disagreement as well. He said we are more prepared these days and obviously we are not. This also proves how much bs that 2006 storm measurements were. 26 inches with hardly any disruptions., give me a break, look what 20 inches did.

26 accumlated on the grass...not on the rd....those are two diff types of storm we had.......granted there was more snow that storm....but this one had a greater impact on travel being that the conditions where prime for horrible rd conditions.....the was a failure to organize, and not so much how the snow removal equipment has gotten better since 96.....

[Sundog]

You where right i never thought it would happen again.....but this storm did it....i just hate when people try to play monday morning qb and say this and that should have been done......the city was more prepared in 96 as that storm was being talk about for days....granted the snow amount went up late....but it did not go from 0-20 in a 48 hr span.......plus i believe 96 was a two day storm........conditions where bad but there was times during that storm crews where abel to get out and do what they had to.....this was a blitz of snow in less then a 24 hr period....mr greek and sundog love hugging 96 and comparing this and that...the fact of the matter is they dont understand a typical plow truck in nyc is not going to get down a road with 15 of snow or 5 ft drifts...you need loaders......i know they expect a certin amount of service.....but all the commercial accounts i have the owners where called explain the situation and then understood the extreme conditions and how getting the job done in a timely fashion would be diffcult....they are on this weather board and know what type conditions where coming...for them to think there road would have been done a few hrs after is stupity.....isotherm house is in colts neck....with one of the higest tax rate in the state of nj...and he was not plowed out until 24 hrs later....yet him being much younger then those two came on here as said he understand why it took so long....the same conditions in both his town and nyc.....dont give me the bs you cant compare.....the city was not organized with this...thats a given.....if they where you still would have had some unhappy people...it was just the nature of the storm...

I agree the city was unprepared from a combo of many diff factors......for sundog to say the xmass eve forcast had 12 in it at 1135pm is pretty poor lead time to organise a snow removal effort in the city, plus during the holiday....yet he seem he cant understand that or the fact why he was not plowed out just beause back in 96 everything was great.....now we have the other guy talking about snow at his bus stop....you just cant please everyone...and it it bothers him that much perhaps he should take a shovel to work 2morrow

Ok, look, the snow depth around my area was not an issue for the plows. When they finally passed by, it was the good ol' garbage truck style plow that we all know and love from the last 20 years. It was the fact that they took until Tuesday afternoon to pass by ONCE that has ticked so many people off. I live on a street with a bus route and they still didn't plow it first or at least give it some type of priority. They didn't come with a front loader. Just the plow. No one is blaming the plowers. I am blaming the people in charge of this failed operation. 96 is still king btw.

[Allsnow]

Ok, look, the snow depth around my area was not an issue for the plows. When they finally passed by, it was the good ol' garbage truck style plow that we all know and love from the last 20 years. It was the fact that they took until Tuesday afternoon to pass by ONCE that has ticked so many people off. I live on a street with a bus route and they still didn't plow it first or at least give it some type of priority. They didn't come with a front loader. Just the plow. No one is blaming the plowers. I am blaming the people in charge of this failed operation. 96 is still king btw.

at this point we can agree...and this has just turn into a stone throwing contest.......have happy new year......and hope for snow