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Upstate NY/North Country Winter Thread II


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2nd Call:

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Overall I agree....it looks very good

The inverted trough is going to make for a hard forecast. looking at the CAPE there will be quite a bit of instability it looks like the models what to push the forcing and instability up over CNY Depending on how fast this takes place will be the major deciding factor on the amount of snow we get.

Overall we have a lot going in our favor.

1 Ample moisture through the upper levels

2 The low and mid level lapse rates are fairly steep

3 And cold low level temperatures.

My call is for 10-16 on the Tug

4-6 for the Mohawk Valley

A general 6-10 for areas outside the Mohawk Valley in CNY

6-10 for the areas north and south of Albany

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Quick thoughts and replies to above posts:

1) snowmap based on in house mesomodel, 12z NAM and WRF 4Km...GFS 12z actually has the Shadow until Saturday PM then shifts snow band NE. (Not buying GFS just yet)

2) As Tornado Girl noted other small scale factors will be huge especially where they come together in time and place. It may have some WINDEX type elements to it.

3) The shadow pattern over extreme ENY is because the winds are SE for a good chunk of the storm (or forecast to be) SE winds are great for shadowing much better than Easterlies. On the flip-side SE flow maximizes orographic lift across the Catskills and 'Dacks but also results in some shadowing across the Mohawk Valley especially along the River...

4) I am also concerned that TG agrees with me in "overall".

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Quick thoughts and replies to above posts:

1) snowmap based on in house mesomodel, 12z NAM and WRF 4Km...GFS 12z actually has the Shadow until Saturday PM then shifts snow band NE. (Not buying GFS just yet)

2) As Tornado Girl noted other small scale factors will be huge especially where they come together in time and place. It may have some WINDEX type elements to it.

3) The shadow pattern over extreme ENY is because the winds are SE for a good chunk of the storm (or forecast to be) SE winds are great for shadowing much better than Easterlies. On the flip-side SE flow maximizes orographic lift across the Catskills and 'Dacks but also results in some shadowing across the Mohawk Valley especially along the River...

4) I am also concerned that TG agrees with me in "overall".

Very funny....But, remember I know where you live :lol:

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This is from KAlb.

HAZARDS: MODERATE TO HEAVY SNOWFALL.

* ACCUMULATIONS: POTENTIAL SNOW ACCUMULATIONS EXCEEDING 7 INCHES

IN 12 HOURS...OR 9 INCHES OR MORE IN 24 HOURS

Andy, are you buying that for around here givin the wind direction you are talking about??

I may and probably am reading your post wrong,about the wind factor too, that is why I am asking.

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as for up here, short terms modeling tends to bring the heavier qpf west of ottawa valley down towards eastern lake ontario upstate counties....but the recent global runs are focusing on the ottawa valley and points SE toewards st lawrence counties.

it will be a narrow area of steadier qpf with this inverted trough like feature.....but confidence is increasing that at least a couple inches of snow will fall somewhere very near or in ottawa.....with an area of 3-6 inches (7-15cm) somewhere in eastern ontario/NNY. these setups are always tricky, and if we see continued enhancement, some surprise accumulations could fall in a lucky area in eastern ontario and the NNY region.

eslewhere a general 1-3 inches (2-8 cm) can be expected.

recall this will be a long duration event over a period of a couple days, so expect impact to be negligible unless a surprise heavier zone develops.

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I was in GFL on Tuesday (library and court building). You narrowly missed the mutha clipper. :) Dustings from Lake George north and 1-2" around Pottersville to Schroon Lake. I ended in Elizabethtown at the courthouse where John Brown's body lay in state after he was hanged.

Closer you are to the mountains in Washington Cty the more you're screwed. East and South facing slopes in the Dacks get enhancement......Geez, I sound like a Viagra commercial

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Hey Andy... The only thing I wonder about with the shadowing is... I was noting on the SNE side that there is a ridge of high ground up the middle of Rensselaer County (around 1200-1500 Feet, etc, I think). I wonder if they get shadowed as bad as the obvious route 22 corridor. I have wondered about that in the past when driving over that ridge from like Averill Park to Berlin on the other side.

Quick thoughts and replies to above posts:

1) snowmap based on in house mesomodel, 12z NAM and WRF 4Km...GFS 12z actually has the Shadow until Saturday PM then shifts snow band NE. (Not buying GFS just yet)

2) As Tornado Girl noted other small scale factors will be huge especially where they come together in time and place. It may have some WINDEX type elements to it.

3) The shadow pattern over extreme ENY is because the winds are SE for a good chunk of the storm (or forecast to be) SE winds are great for shadowing much better than Easterlies. On the flip-side SE flow maximizes orographic lift across the Catskills and 'Dacks but also results in some shadowing across the Mohawk Valley especially along the River...

4) I am also concerned that TG agrees with me in "overall".

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This is from KAlb.

HAZARDS: MODERATE TO HEAVY SNOWFALL.

* ACCUMULATIONS: POTENTIAL SNOW ACCUMULATIONS EXCEEDING 7 INCHES

IN 12 HOURS...OR 9 INCHES OR MORE IN 24 HOURS

Andy, are you buying that for around here givin the wind direction you are talking about??

I may and probably am reading your post wrong,about the wind factor too, that is why I am asking.

After analyzing GFS and NAM in detail and talking with Steve we'll probaly be upping totals a 2-4 inches across the board. The 4-8 bands will probably change to 5-10 or 6-10; the shadow band probably going 3-6 maybe 4-7; the 8-12 bands 10-15. Something like that. So yes it is possible.

the euro has been conssitently paltry throguhout this leadup.

Agree but even so with high snow to liquid ratios (across NYS anyway) its QPF does yield moderate snow amounts. One can also not overlook the meso factors too...instability, oro enhancement, etc.

Closer you are to the mountains in Washington Cty the more you're screwed. East and South facing slopes in the Dacks get enhancement......Geez, I sound like a Viagra commercial

Keep reading my posts and you'll become almost as smart as me! :arrowhead:

Hey Andy... The only thing I wonder about with the shadowing is... I was noting on the SNE side that there is a ridge of high ground up the middle of Rensselaer County (around 1200-1500 Feet, etc, I think). I wonder if they get shadowed as bad as the obvious route 22 corridor. I have wondered about that in the past when driving over that ridge from like Averill Park to Berlin on the other side.

They do especially around Averill Park down towards Melrose and even Troy south along the river, esp. when the SE flow is very strong. Sometimes it will extend west to Albany. Actually the heights around Grafton are close to 2K( a bit less) and Petersburg Notch is @ 2087.

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Closer you are to the mountains in Washington Cty the more you're screwed. East and South facing slopes in the Dacks get enhancement......Geez, I sound like a Viagra commercial

There are mountains in Wasington county?? Mountains of what? Just kidding J/K lol

Problem is with sounding like a Viagra commercial is the screwing taking place the locations getting it and how long it will last!! just like this storm!!

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Right I meant that N/S area of heights that cut through Grafton. Then you drop again as you head east into the route 22 corridor. I don't doubt they will get shadowed along route 22.

So to get into extreme meso factors, I could see some shadowing just east of the Hudson, then less shadow, then shadowing again along route 22.

But I'm sure your maps can't be so precise.

After analyzing GFS and NAM in detail and talking with Steve we'll probaly be upping totals a 2-4 inches across the board. The 4-8 bands will probably change to 5-10 or 6-10; the shadow band probably going 3-6 maybe 4-7; the 8-12 bands 10-15. Something like that. So yes it is possible.

Agree but even so with high snow to liquid ratios (across NYS anyway) its QPF does yield moderate snow amounts. One can also not overlook the meso factors too...instability, oro enhancement, etc.

Keep reading my posts and you'll become almost as smart as me! :arrowhead:

They do especially around Averill Park down towards Melrose and even Troy south along the river, esp. when the SE flow is very strong. Sometimes it will extend west to Albany. Actually the heights around Grafton are close to 2K( a bit less) and Petersburg Notch is @ 2087.

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The Taconic Range would be in easternmost Washington County up against the VT border, extending to a point somewhat north of Mount Equinox in VT. Then it comes to an end and the that northernmost part of Wash. Cty is at the base of the Champlain Valley

There are mountains in Wasington county?? Mountains of what? Just kidding J/K lol

Problem is with sounding like a Viagra commercial is the screwing taking place the locations getting it and how long it will last!! just like this storm!!

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There are some quirky localized shadow effects in ENY that no forecast map can really do full justice to. A few examples... Bearsville (just west of Woodstock) gets a wicked Catskills shadow on NE winds and almost always less snow than other areas down there during Noreasters. Also noted a very obvious shadow just north of Northway Exit 30 along route 9 the other day ...totally shadowed by the huge Giant/Rocky Ridge highlands.

There are mountains in Wasington county?? Mountains of what? Just kidding J/K lol

Problem is with sounding like a Viagra commercial is the screwing taking place the locations getting it and how long it will last!! just like this storm!!

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18z NAM has joined the other globals in shfting the inv trough a bit more WNW-SSE and as a result is very similar to the RGEM/Euro of heavier qpf output over and near the ottawa valley and througouht eastern ontario.

given that this zone seems to shift slightly counterclockwise with every model run, this is going to be a nowacast event to some degree to see where it exactly setsup....but we are getting close now, so confidence is increasing that the ottawa area will see a long duration snowfall of moderate accumulation......

an enhaced area of convergence may also result in some heavier bursts of snow for some surprise accumlations, which should have good ratios. right now, that is favored along a line from pembroke to KMSS. we will have to watch for that to continue to shift, and more importantly where it setsup tomorrow.

the trough is edging close to the montreal area, but as of right now, lighter amounts are expected.....stay tuned.

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18z NAM goes a little overboard i think with the piece of vorticity and makes this an NNY/eastern ontario special that carries on all weekend.

accumulations of >6 inches result throughout that region with 3-6 in the montreal area.

due to its inconsistencies, i will toss that extra piece later saturday into sunday, and keep an eye on it......but at least the first 48 hours with the inv trof are in line now with the other models.

post-149-0-13076700-1294347384.gif

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Eventually the old trough reaches a northernmost point where it sits and rots away... I was hoping it would be here, but as per climo it is looking to be north of ALB somewhere....

18z NAM goes a little overboard i think with the piece of vorticity and makes this an NNY/eastern ontario special that carries on all weekend.

accumulations of >6 inches result throughout that region with 2-5 in the montreal area.

due to its inconsistencies, i will toss that extra piece later saturday into sunday, and keep an eye on it......but at least the first 48 hours with the inv trof are in line now with the other models.

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