E PA/NJ/DE Spring 2025 Obs/Discussion

[rcostell]

10 hours ago, Albedoman said:

After being criticized by an individual for not  taking a chill pill and  for saying the mulch fire was major fire and that I was blowing the fire possibilities  out of proportion with the current drought in the last few days, two  so called non-major wildfires are still going crazy. Jim Thorpe area   over 500 acres and now another non major fire in southern NJ. All I hear now is crickets at my house.

Also Mike Gorse, I must apologize to you and your staff as  I did not mean any disrespect toward you or your staff at MT Holly. I am really frustrated with this crappy weather pattern we are stuck in  for the past 9 months and did not mean to take it out toward MT Holly staff.  Many of the old weather hobbyists  have to be as frustrated as I am too as these daily 20-30 mph Santa Ana type winds with extreme diurnal temp ranges and no Gulf of America moisture source for storm convection  which has basically has been gone for nearly a year now.  I am also hoping  a special weather statement will be issued that considers the under-stories in the woods and nearby brushy fields are extremely dry right now regardless of any rain we received two weeks ago. The dry warm winds are sure not helping as evident by these fires. Thanks 

 

https://www.foxweather.com/extreme-weather/jones-road-wildfire-new-jersey-shore-smoke-evacuations

https://www.inquirer.com/news/pennsylvania/jim-thorpe-pennsylvania-wildfire-20250422.html

Good morning.  You can call me Bob.  I'm happy you apologized to Mr. Gorse for your remarks. Well deserved.  That was the point of my comment that the mulch fire was not "major"- and especially that exaggeration of a fire caused by spontaneous combustion shouldn't be linked to NWS being negligent. Those were my only points. I see nowhere where I wrote those other things you linked me to.            

(As far as your attempts at "face- saving", above-  everyone on this board knows we have a rainfall deficit, its been windy, and its fire season.  I mentioned none of that- so don't imply I did.    The fire near Jim Thorpe was preexisting my comments- and the Ocean County fire is "major", although contained.   I grew up in the Pine Barrens- there are fires most years, especially during spring before leaf-out..its a neccessary part of the ecology here.  Your proclivity towards exaggeration and blaming folks for non-existent issues is noted.   Maybe stop trying to bite my ankles when you are already on the canvas. Its a bad look.)   

[LVblizzard]

This weekend’s rain can’t come soon enough. Allergies are brutal right now. It would really help if some of this pollen was washed away.

[Albedoman]

45 minutes ago, rcostell said:

Good morning.  You can call me Bob.  I'm happy you apologized to Mr. Gorse for your remarks. Well deserved.  That was the point of my comment that the mulch fire was not "major"- and especially that exaggeration of a fire caused by spontaneous combustion shouldn't be linked to NWS being negligent. Those were my only points. I see nowhere where I wrote those other things you linked me to.            

(As far as your attempts at "face- saving", above-  everyone on this board knows we have a rainfall deficit, its been windy, and its fire season.  I mentioned none of that- so don't imply I did.    The fire near Jim Thorpe was preexisting my comments- and the Ocean County fire is "major", although contained.   I grew up in the Pine Barrens- there are fires most years, especially during spring before leaf-out..its a neccessary part of the ecology here.  Your proclivity towards exaggeration and blaming folks for non-existent issues is noted.   Maybe stop trying to bite my ankles when you are already on the canvas. Its a bad look.)   

Your italicized comments were not necessary- only to add insult to your previous remarks. I am sorry feel this way. You seem to have a pattern of doing this on other forums too. Anyway you stated the NJ fire was contained in NJ- you could not be more wrong see link below this morning.  As far as as fires in the NJ pine barrens as a necessary part of ecology- the Pine Barrens does NOT have the same climate regime as S California. I lived in S. California for ten years and personally dealt with my own brush wildfires. If it they did have the same yearly climatology, S NJ EMS would be better prepared for such a major fire as the one today. Most likely this fire was caused by some knucklehead burning winter debris and not by natural causes like lightning. The Pine Barrens also do not have  highly flammable chaparral  type vegetation with 18 in of rain per year, just dense evergreen trees and typical underbrush found in our area with 40 in of rain a year. Large wild fires are not normal. 

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/jones-wildfire-ocean-county-new-jersey-ocean-township-lacey-township-barnegat-township/4166736/

 

[BBasile]

Speaking of fire I guess...Here's the Lacey Twp fire from over 40 miles away.  The smoke plume is huge and is hugging the ground for as far south as I can see.  Beast of a fire. 

[Birds~69]

1 hour ago, BBasile said:

Speaking of fire I guess...Here's the Lacey Twp fire from over 40 miles away.  The smoke plume is huge and is hugging the ground for as far south as I can see.  Beast of a fire. 

I think this one is the image in you radar shot. Is this another one the the West (left)?

[rcostell]

2 hours ago, Albedoman said:

Your italicized comments were not necessary- only to add insult to your previous remarks. I am sorry feel this way. You seem to have a pattern of doing this on other forums too. Anyway you stated the NJ fire was contained in NJ- you could not be more wrong see link below this morning.  As far as as fires in the NJ pine barrens as a necessary part of ecology- the Pine Barrens does NOT have the same climate regime as S California. I lived in S. California for ten years and personally dealt with my own brush wildfires. If it they did have the same yearly climatology, S NJ EMS would be better prepared for such a major fire as the one today. Most likely this fire was caused by some knucklehead burning winter debris and not by natural causes like lightning. The Pine Barrens also do not have  highly flammable chaparral  type vegetation with 18 in of rain per year, just dense evergreen trees and typical underbrush found in our area with 40 in of rain a year. Large wild fires are not normal. 

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/jones-wildfire-ocean-county-new-jersey-ocean-township-lacey-township-barnegat-township/4166736/

 

Sir-  I believe in a written, science/factual based forum like this one- thats its a good thing to call out personal blaming, factual inaccuracies or slander. If you 've seen a pattern of that- Thank you. I don't cotton up to BS.      But there you go again- for the Ocean county fire, I used the word "contained" deliberately- as its latest given offical status was  "30% contained".  Thats not "Out of Control"  (nor certainly out, either!)   Good for you for observing that Southern California has a different weather pattern, climate and vegetation than the NJ Pine Barrens- I'm familiar as I spend lots of time in San Diego county-   but have no idea why you brought that area into the dicussion.   Fires )of all sizes)  in the Pine Barrens are relatively common this time of year- not every year- and a part of the local ecology, and always have been, prior to the era of suppression.  (Lots of scrub Oak leaf litter, pine needles and very sandy, porus soil make for a dry, fuel rich area- you can ask others who live here, or maybe Mr. Gorse, if you distrust me.      I'm done so, you can get the last word in, if you'd like- as that seems important to you.

[tamarack]

2 hours ago, Albedoman said:

Your italicized comments were not necessary- only to add insult to your previous remarks. I am sorry feel this way. You seem to have a pattern of doing this on other forums too. Anyway you stated the NJ fire was contained in NJ- you could not be more wrong see link below this morning.  As far as fires in the NJ pine barrens as a necessary part of ecology- the Pine Barrens does NOT have the same climate regime as S California. I lived in S. California for ten years and personally dealt with my own brush wildfires. If it they did have the same yearly climatology, S NJ EMS would be better prepared for such a major fire as the one today. Most likely this fire was caused by some knucklehead burning winter debris and not by natural causes like lightning. The Pine Barrens also do not have  highly flammable chaparral  type vegetation with 18 in of rain per year, just dense evergreen trees and typical underbrush found in our area with 40 in of rain a year. Large wild fires are not normal. 

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/jones-wildfire-ocean-county-new-jersey-ocean-township-lacey-township-barnegat-township/4166736/

 

Maybe look up April 20, 1963. 
The pine barrens are a fire ecotype, as the infertile sandy soil supports a pine-oak forest that's sustained by fire.  Unlike most conifers, pitch pine can produce sprouts after the above-ground trees are burned, allowing the post-fire forest to remain much the same.  Also, that infertility leads to late leaf out and slow decay of litter.  As noted, central NJ gets more than twice the SoCal rain, but the excessively drained soil dries quickly.

[rcostell]

29 minutes ago, tamarack said:

Maybe look up April 20, 1963. 
The pine barrens are a fire ecotype, as the infertile sandy soil supports a pine-oak forest that's sustained by fire.  Unlike most conifers, pitch pine can produce sprouts after the above-ground trees are burned, allowing the post-fire forest to remain much the same.  Also, that infertility leads to late leaf out and slow decay of litter.  As noted, central NJ gets more than twice the SoCal rain, but the excessively drained soil dries quickly.

That was a crazy one (I was 5, but recall it vaguely in family discussion) in an area that gets many. That sandy soil drains so fast (and can be tough in spots to traverse ("sugar sand"!) but sits on the largest untapped aquifer east of the Mississippi!  Its a unique, large area of the southern/central part of the State that is surprisingly (except at the edges, filling in) unpopulated.  Radiates well in cold clear conditions, too. It can be 20 degrees here but 0 30 miles southeast, in the heart of the pines. Cool stuff! 

[tamarack]

19 minutes ago, rcostell said:

That was a crazy one (I was 5, but recall it vaguely in family discussion) in an area that gets many. That sandy soil drains so fast (and can be tough in spots to traverse ("sugar sand"!) but sits on the largest untapped aquifer east of the Mississippi!  Its a unique, large area of the southern/central part of the State that is surprisingly (except at the edges, filling in) unpopulated.  Radiates well in cold clear conditions, too. It can be 20 degrees here but 0 30 miles southeast, in the heart of the pines. Cool stuff! 

I grew up in northern Morris County and was 17 at that fire's date.  The following super-dry and warm October, a fire on state land covered ~3,000 acres and persisted thru October and into November.  The land was mostly loose rockpiles and the fire would follow roots under the stuff, often popping up behind the firefighters.  The fire was only 3-4 miles from my HS, and each morning we'd look north to see where the smoke was most dense that day.
Our grandkids live in Gloucester County farm country, a few miles west (thankfully) of the barrens.

Southern Maine has a limited but significant acreage in pitch pine barrens.  The climate is booth cooler (natch) and wetter than NJ and the soils, though not especially fertile, are a lot better was well.  Therefore, the pines tend to be taller and crown fires in Maine barrens very rarely reach the crowns; frequent ground fires have sustained the ecotype, though the State Tree, Eastern white pine, is a problematic invasive there.

[rcostell]

8 minutes ago, tamarack said:

I grew up in northern Morris County and was 17 at that fire's date.  The following super-dry and warm October, a fire on state land covered ~3,000 acres and persisted thru October and into November.  The land was mostly loose rockpiles and the fire would follow roots under the stuff, often popping up behind the firefighters.  The fire was only 3-4 miles from my HS, and each morning we'd look north to see where the smoke was most dense that day.
Our grandkids live in Gloucester County farm country, a few miles west (thankfully) of the barrens.

I'm not too far from there, actually.     Just 3 years ago (again, in April) there was a Pinelands fire that burned almost 70,000 acres. I've read that the "cedar water" prevalent in the area (high acid tannin from all the Atlantic White cedars leaches into the water) retards the leaf litter from decomposing quickly- hence high tinder availability.  Sea captains in Colonial times used to cask that cedar water for drinking aboard- as it would not "sour" quickly.  You can still drink from cedar water springs in certain areas- as all waters emanating from the central Pines do not flow through man made pollutants.  Sorry to go on. I love that area! 

[BBasile]

3 hours ago, Birds~69 said:

I think this one is the image in you radar shot. Is this another one the the West (left)?

 

[tamarack]

32 minutes ago, rcostell said:

I'm not too far from there, actually.     Just 3 years ago (again, in April) there was a Pinelands fire that burned almost 70,000 acres. I've read that the "cedar water" prevalent in the area (high acid tannin from all the Atlantic White cedars leaches into the water) retards the leaf litter from decomposing quickly- hence high tinder availability.  Sea captains in Colonial times used to cask that cedar water for drinking aboard- as it would not "sour" quickly.  You can still drink from cedar water springs in certain areas- as all waters emanating from the central Pines do not flow through man made pollutants.  Sorry to go on. I love that area! 

When I was in scouting - late '50s - we stayed in Tuckerton at a camping place called Chip's Folly (and caught fluke and blowfish in Great Bay).  The camp was next to an Atlantic white cedar swamp, with water that looked like very dark tea.  I've since read that cedar logs from 1,000 years ago have been dredged from similar bogs and in totally sound condition, being "pickled" for a millennium.

[rcostell]

1 minute ago, tamarack said:

When I was in scouting - late '50s - we stayed in Tuckerton at a camping place called Chip's Folly (and caught fluke and blowfish in Great Bay).  The camp was next to an Atlantic white cedar swamp, with water that looked like very dark tea.  I've since read that cedar logs from 1,000 years ago have been dredged from similar bogs and in totally sound condition, being "pickled" for a millennium.

Yep- Have camped there myself. We used to cannonball off the top of the counterbalance on the draw bridge over the Mullica River (flows into Great Bay)  at night, that cedar water stayed cool all year around. Used to have a boat in Great Bay at a place called Rands marina, out on  "7 bridges road".  Sandy erased Rands from the map- not rebuilt. (Sold my boat prior).   Cedar swamp "logging" is still practiced some- down near Delaware bay in Cumberland County. Some of those logs are "prehistoric" huge!  I've also read that the Meadowlands up near where you grew up contained large Atlantic White Cedar stands. Some tiny replanting attempts are ongoing. Those swamps make great flood control measures- but BOY are they dark at night!  

[rcostell]

1 hour ago, tamarack said:

I grew up in northern Morris County and was 17 at that fire's date.  The following super-dry and warm October, a fire on state land covered ~3,000 acres and persisted thru October and into November.  The land was mostly loose rockpiles and the fire would follow roots under the stuff, often popping up behind the firefighters.  The fire was only 3-4 miles from my HS, and each morning we'd look north to see where the smoke was most dense that day.
Our grandkids live in Gloucester County farm country, a few miles west (thankfully) of the barrens.

Southern Maine has a limited but significant acreage in pitch pine barrens.  The climate is booth cooler (natch) and wetter than NJ and the soils, though not especially fertile, are a lot better was well.  Therefore, the pines tend to be taller and crown fires in Maine barrens very rarely reach the crowns; frequent ground fires have sustained the ecotype, though the State Tree, Eastern white pine, is a problematic invasive there.

Theres a section of pine barrens up near my place in the Northern Adirondacks in Clinton County.  Odd seeing that landscape up there...