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January Medium/Long Range: A snowy January ahead?


mappy
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7 minutes ago, Stormchaserchuck1 said:

I said the Pacific pattern doesn't look anything like our snowstorm composite.. that could mean anything from the storm being more positive tilted, not happening, to rain, etc. It wasn't a good upper latitude H5. I'm going to get this one right.. we might get some light snow on the front end when -NAO is still in place, but the upper latitude pattern changes too quickly and the core is probably too warm or misses us. 

Also this is kinda like having it both ways... the pattern is no good because it might be too warm and also it might be too cold and suppress.  There is a HUGE range of permutations and possible results and only a very small minority falls into the box we need to get a big snowsotrm.  In EVERY setup that is the least likely outcome so taking that stance would make you right just by default most of the time. 

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2 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

Also this is kinda like having it both ways... the pattern is no good because it might be too warm and also it might be too cold and suppress.  There is a HUGE range of permutations and possible results and only a very small minority falls into the box we need to get a big snowsotrm.  In EVERY setup that is the least likely outcome so taking that stance would make you right just by default most of the time. 

Even if it goes south DC will probably hit 35-36 degrees. A ridge in the Gulf of Alaska flattens out the flow a bit, so it could either run inland or go out to sea, but was not good for the Miller A snowstorm it was showing before. 

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3 minutes ago, Stormchaserchuck1 said:

Even if it goes south DC will probably hit 35-36 degrees. A ridge in the Gulf of Alaska flattens out the flow a bit, so it could either run inland or go out to sea, but was not good for the Miller A snowstorm it was showing before. 

DCA was 35F as the snow started early this morning.

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1 minute ago, pazzo83 said:

DCA was 35F as the snow started early this morning.

In an optimal pattern! Imagine the difference when the -NAO and +PNA de-evolves. Maybe it will be warmer than that in DC.. I think I posted yesterday about how surprisingly warm our "perfect cold" snowstorm was in the region. 

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Just now, Stormchaserchuck1 said:

In an optimal pattern! Imagine the difference when the -NAO and +PNA de-evolves. Maybe it will be warmer than that in DC.. I think I posted yesterday about how surprisingly warm our "perfect cold" snowstorm was in the region. 

yeah - obviously it's warmer.  25 years ago DC is probably in the teens / low 20s during this.  But we can still snow.

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6 minutes ago, Stormchaserchuck1 said:

Even if it goes south DC will probably hit 35-36 degrees. A ridge in the Gulf of Alaska flattens out the flow a bit, so it could either run inland or go out to sea, but was not good for the Miller A it was showing before. 

Here is an example of a close cold enso pattern match, the MECS from 2006

48 hours before

compday.ArcbILs2kt.gif.d08d82c121ecd746bc48ee86c7ddd4ce.gif

48 hours before our current threat

447693495_48hoursbefore.thumb.png.959e3e8104cc1449fe50a48a593df465.png

The biggest problem here is the NS wave is not timed up with the STJ, its getting out ahead of it.  If that was fixed this has the same potential. 

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4 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

Here is an example of a close cold enso pattern match, the MECS from 2006

48 hours before

48 hours before our current threat

The biggest problem here is the NS wave is not timed up with the STJ, its getting out ahead of it.  If that was fixed this has the same potential. 

I've said this before though - It's ok that the South, like Texas, Oklahoma etc get a snowstorm out of this. The pattern changes quickly from the -48hrs to the time of the storm. We have no high pressure to the north.. By the time the coastal makes it off of Ocean City, we will be above freezing. That High pressure organizing in the Gulf of Alaska is the reason. 

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3 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

Here is an example of a close cold enso pattern match, the MECS from 2006

48 hours before

compday.ArcbILs2kt.gif.d08d82c121ecd746bc48ee86c7ddd4ce.gif

48 hours before our current threat

447693495_48hoursbefore.thumb.png.959e3e8104cc1449fe50a48a593df465.png

The biggest problem here is the NS wave is not timed up with the STJ, its getting out ahead of it.  If that was fixed this has the same potential. 

Can you pretty please fix it. 

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2 minutes ago, Stormchaserchuck1 said:

I've said this before though - It's ok that the South, like Texas, Oklahoma etc get a snowstorm out of this. The pattern changes quickly from the -48hrs to the time of the storm. We have no high pressure to the north.. By the time the coastal makes it off of OC, we will be above freezing. 

But the pattern in the pacific you are referring too evolved the exact same way in 2006.  The difference was the NS SW dove in behind the STJ wave and dug the trough better than most guidance is doing now that suggest the NS and STJ waves will be out of sync.  The rest of the pattern is nearly identical.  Especially the pacific which is specifically what you were talking about. 

Day of storm 2006

790328271_DayofStorm1.gif.193a212e9d5d6d494f3ab952c79b91d2.gif

Day of Threat now

860549919_Dayof2.thumb.png.79270e3f6198d38df8a27e371993d739.png

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8 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

Here is an example of a close cold enso pattern match, the MECS from 2006

48 hours before

compday.ArcbILs2kt.gif.d08d82c121ecd746bc48ee86c7ddd4ce.gif

48 hours before our current threat

447693495_48hoursbefore.thumb.png.959e3e8104cc1449fe50a48a593df465.png

The biggest problem here is the NS wave is not timed up with the STJ, its getting out ahead of it.  If that was fixed this has the same potential. 

So if we're talking about a timing difference...I'm wondering if there's a scenario where the models don't resolve that until the pieces are here on like Wednesday.

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1 minute ago, psuhoffman said:

But the pattern in the pacific you are referring too evolved the exact same way in 2006.  The difference was the NS SW dove in behind the STJ wave and dug the trough better than most guidance is doing now that suggest the NS and STJ waves will be out of sync.  The rest of the pattern is nearly identical.  Especially the pacific which is specifically what you were talking about. 

Day of storm 2006

Day of Threat now

Yeah it's pretty close - I don't like that we have high heights out ahead of the trough with this storm. Make a composite of 15 GOA or -PNA ridges, and 13 or 14 times it evolves too warm for us to have snow.. it is close to the coldest time of the year, but we need a better pattern imo. 

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Chuck, you're right a ridge there is not ideal, but if we couldn't get a snowstorm in that look we would almost NEVER get them in cold enso seasons or with a -EPO.  We do sometimes get lucky with this exact kind of evolution, if we have a -AO and -NAO.  It's not the ideal perfect HECS look no, but its about as good as we get in a cold enso season with a -PDO.  It's still negative just not as much so.  We do get snowstorms in a -PDO, its just harder. 

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3 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

Chuck, you're right a ridge there is not ideal, but if we couldn't get a snowstorm in that look we would almost NEVER get them in cold enso seasons or with a -EPO.  We do sometimes get lucky with this exact kind of evolution, if we have a -AO and -NAO.  It's not the ideal perfect HECS look no, but its about as good as we get in a cold enso season with a -PDO.  It's still negative just not as much so.  We do get snowstorms in a -PDO, its just harder. 

ENSO is just a mover of the Pacific pattern, not something that trumps it. Wavelengths at our latitude make the difference, so you would be more accurate measuring +PNA or -PNA events for snowstorms. It does also connect with the STJ though, but you still need cold, and it's just not coming or "reloading" from now to the time of the storm. 

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8 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

But the pattern in the pacific you are referring too evolved the exact same way in 2006.  The difference was the NS SW dove in behind the STJ wave and dug the trough better than most guidance is doing now that suggest the NS and STJ waves will be out of sync.  The rest of the pattern is nearly identical.  Especially the pacific which is specifically what you were talking about. 

Day of storm 2006

790328271_DayofStorm1.gif.193a212e9d5d6d494f3ab952c79b91d2.gif

Day of Threat now

860549919_Dayof2.thumb.png.79270e3f6198d38df8a27e371993d739.png

If I remember correctly it was the JMA that first sniffed out the 2006 storm. Thundersnow and foot of snow here in NOVA. It was a lucky break in otherwise uneventful winter. 

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