December Banter 2024

[psuhoffman]

I am shocked and confused (but interested and willing to listen with an open mind) by the perspective of Ravens fans here.  As a neutral outsider (I neither particularly love but definitely do not hate the Ravens) I view them as a team with a good but not great roster that typically overperforms their talent level over the past 10 years.  This year, they are about where the talent level says they should be.  The talk about firing the coach is crazy to me. 

I did think maybe I was simply missing something and off on my evaluation so I looked at all the pre-season roster rankings I could find from the major publications like PFF, ESPN, Fox sports.  I looked at 8 roster rankings in all and the Ravens were between 3 and 9 with an average of 6.5.  I guess you could argue they are slightly under performing their talent this season since at the moment they have the 9th best record and by talent they should be 6 or 7 but that seems pretty minor, and I think they've had a harder schedule are are playing better in reality than a few of those teams with better records.  

I will admit I don't watch them closely enough and maybe this is due to boneheaded decisions that I just don't notice...but I didn't see anything in the game yesterday that he did that I found egregious or harmful to the team.  They lost because the kicker missed a few important kicks but mostly because the Eagles defense did to them exactly what they've done to everyone all year and the Eagles offense ground them down late which is also what they've done to everyone all year.  And the game ended about exactly how you would expect given the talent on both squads, the Eagles have the slightly better roster and they won a close game.  

What am I missing? 

[cbmclean]

53 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

I am shocked and confused (but interested and willing to listen with an open mind) by the perspective of Ravens fans here.  As a neutral outsider (I neither particularly love but definitely do not hate the Ravens) I view them as a team with a good but not great roster that typically overperforms their talent level over the past 10 years.  This year, they are about where the talent level says they should be.  The talk about firing the coach is crazy to me. 

I did think maybe I was simply missing something and off on my evaluation so I looked at all the pre-season roster rankings I could find from the major publications like PFF, ESPN, Fox sports.  I looked at 8 roster rankings in all and the Ravens were between 3 and 9 with an average of 6.5.  I guess you could argue they are slightly under performing their talent this season since at the moment they have the 9th best record and by talent they should be 6 or 7 but that seems pretty minor, and I think they've had a harder schedule are are playing better in reality than a few of those teams with better records.  

I will admit I don't watch them closely enough and maybe this is due to boneheaded decisions that I just don't notice...but I didn't see anything in the game yesterday that he did that I found egregious or harmful to the team.  They lost because the kicker missed a few important kicks but mostly because the Eagles defense did to them exactly what they've done to everyone all year and the Eagles offense ground them down late which is also what they've done to everyone all year.  And the game ended about exactly how you would expect given the talent on both squads, the Eagles have the slightly better roster and they won a close game.  

What am I missing? 

Another outsider perspective: I believe that sports fans in general significantly underestimate the magnitude of the impact of random chance on football.  Obviously talent and coaching play a huge role, but a lot of good or bad things that happen in a football game or even an entire season are essentially random.  If Harbaugh really does consistently overperform his talent (I don't know if that is the case or not), then I would consider him a good coach by definition, even if he has stumbled in the playoffs.  Most coaches stumble in the playoffs. 

My question to the Raven's fans here is: who in your opinion is actually a BETTER coach than Harbaugh in today's NFL or in the recent past? 

[MillvilleWx]

1 hour ago, cbmclean said:

Another outsider perspective: I believe that sports fans in general significantly underestimate the magnitude of the impact of random chance on football.  Obviously talent and coaching play a huge role, but a lot of good or bad things that happen in a football game or even an entire season are essentially random.  If Harbaugh really does consistently overperform his talent (I don't know if that is the case or not), then I would consider him a good coach by definition, even if he has stumbled in the playoffs.  Most coaches stumble in the playoffs. 

My question to the Raven's fans here is: who in your opinion is actually a BETTER coach than Harbaugh in today's NFL or in the recent past? 

We had one as our DC last year in Mike McDonald. Better situational coach that is proving his worth on a Seahawks team that he inherited with a mess of a roster, especially on the O-line and defense as a whole. Harbaugh's teams recently have been prone to penalties and the lack of vision on the most critical pieces of a team build nowadays (DE and Interior OL) during the offseason have been detrimental to team postseason success. Let's not forget his propensity to have some seriously critical shifts in game plans vs certain teams that seem to plague this team every year. He is out coached by Andy Reid every time, he is out coached by Tomlin pretty much every time these days, and he struggles to get this team to make changes against squads when key injuries affect the other side. 

I had a friend of mine texting me yesterday asking why the Ravens weren't taking advantage of their safety being hurt in the game? Also, Mitchell for Philly was out for a time and we never once picked on his replacement who is subpar. Just lack of awareness of what is going on during a game. Throw in some insanely questionable challenges the past 4 years that were never going to be overturned at any point (Harbaugh has lowest challenge win % of any NFL coach the past 5 seasons) and you have reason that his best years are behind him. Lamar saved his job in 2018 and he's been riding that wave of Lamar's talent ever since. He was a great coach in his early days, but that was a different era. If you don't adapt to the game, the game leaves you behind. I like Monken as our OC overall, but he also has had some questionable play calling situations in games. Henry needs to get 25+ touches/game from now on. This is his time to shine. We did a bit better getting him the ball yesterday with 21 touches, but he was over 4 yards/carry for much of the game and we still went pass happy. 

Lamar also has had his share of struggles with mental mistakes and beating himself up after bad throws and such. He gets way too emotional sometimes. He has to just move on to the next play. When he starts taking his helmet off on the sideline and pouting or showing anger at himself, it's never a good omen for later in the game. Talent through the roof, but still needs to get over the hump vs very difficult defenses/schemes. 

That's my 2cents on the matter which are worth probably less considering I'm just a fan, but I've watched a ton of football and these are my observations. 

[toolsheds]

30 minutes ago, MillvilleWx said:

We had one as our DC last year in Mike McDonald. Better situational coach that is proving his worth on a Seahawks team that he inherited with a mess of a roster, especially on the O-line and defense as a whole. Harbaugh's teams recently have been prone to penalties and the lack of vision on the most critical pieces of a team build nowadays (DE and Interior OL) during the offseason have been detrimental to team postseason success. Let's not forget his propensity to have some seriously critical shifts in game plans vs certain teams that seem to plague this team every year. He is out coached by Andy Reid every time, he is out coached by Tomlin pretty much every time these days, and he struggles to get this team to make changes against squads when key injuries affect the other side. 

I had a friend of mine texting me yesterday asking why the Ravens weren't taking advantage of their safety being hurt in the game? Also, Mitchell for Philly was out for a time and we never once picked on his replacement who is subpar. Just lack of awareness of what is going on during a game. Throw in some insanely questionable challenges the past 4 years that were never going to be overturned at any point (Harbaugh has lowest challenge win % of any NFL coach the past 5 seasons) and you have reason that his best years are behind him. Lamar saved his job in 2018 and he's been riding that wave of Lamar's talent ever since. He was a great coach in his early days, but that was a different era. If you don't adapt to the game, the game leaves you behind. I like Monken as our OC overall, but he also has had some questionable play calling situations in games. Henry needs to get 25+ touches/game from now on. This is his time to shine. We did a bit better getting him the ball yesterday with 21 touches, but he was over 4 yards/carry for much of the game and we still went pass happy. 

Lamar also has had his share of struggles with mental mistakes and beating himself up after bad throws and such. He gets way too emotional sometimes. He has to just move on to the next play. When he starts taking his helmet off on the sideline and pouting or showing anger at himself, it's never a good omen for later in the game. Talent through the roof, but still needs to get over the hump vs very difficult defenses/schemes. 

That's my 2cents on the matter which are worth probably less considering I'm just a fan, but I've watched a ton of football and these are my observations. 

One other thing I believe that drives Raven's fans crazy is the lack of discipline. As long as I can remember, they take way too many bad penalties repeatedly.  It seems that it's also the same repeat offenders.  What is not getting translated from the coaching staff to correct this?  Also, the special teams have seemed to taken a step back too.  

Justin Tucker started having issues last year, which seems to point to Koch retiring and a new holder.  I am not a NFL kicker or holder, but something obviously is not right there.  It has cost them a few games, but in the past he has won games they should have lost too.....so I think he will get a longer leash because of that. 

I agree with the play calling too.  Seems like they try to get cute when just running the obvious play.  When the Ravens are most successful, they run the ball to set up the pass.   Seems like the running game has disappeared at times trying to prove that Lamar can pass the football too.  

If they just stuck to what works, I think that we would see a much more improved team and record. 

 

[toolsheds]

2 hours ago, cbmclean said:

Another outsider perspective: I believe that sports fans in general significantly underestimate the magnitude of the impact of random chance on football.  Obviously talent and coaching play a huge role, but a lot of good or bad things that happen in a football game or even an entire season are essentially random.  If Harbaugh really does consistently overperform his talent (I don't know if that is the case or not), then I would consider him a good coach by definition, even if he has stumbled in the playoffs.  Most coaches stumble in the playoffs. 

My question to the Raven's fans here is: who in your opinion is actually a BETTER coach than Harbaugh in today's NFL or in the recent past? 

Tomlin made a tough decision to play Wilson when he was healthy and was torched for it.  Look how that turned out.  I think that he also gets more out of his team when they have down years.

[psuhoffman]

1 hour ago, MillvilleWx said:

We had one as our DC last year in Mike McDonald. Better situational coach that is proving his worth on a Seahawks team that he inherited with a mess of a roster, especially on the O-line and defense as a whole. Harbaugh's teams recently have been prone to penalties and the lack of vision on the most critical pieces of a team build nowadays (DE and Interior OL) during the offseason have been detrimental to team postseason success. Let's not forget his propensity to have some seriously critical shifts in game plans vs certain teams that seem to plague this team every year. He is out coached by Andy Reid every time, he is out coached by Tomlin pretty much every time these days, and he struggles to get this team to make changes against squads when key injuries affect the other side. 

I had a friend of mine texting me yesterday asking why the Ravens weren't taking advantage of their safety being hurt in the game? Also, Mitchell for Philly was out for a time and we never once picked on his replacement who is subpar. Just lack of awareness of what is going on during a game. Throw in some insanely questionable challenges the past 4 years that were never going to be overturned at any point (Harbaugh has lowest challenge win % of any NFL coach the past 5 seasons) and you have reason that his best years are behind him. Lamar saved his job in 2018 and he's been riding that wave of Lamar's talent ever since. He was a great coach in his early days, but that was a different era. If you don't adapt to the game, the game leaves you behind. I like Monken as our OC overall, but he also has had some questionable play calling situations in games. Henry needs to get 25+ touches/game from now on. This is his time to shine. We did a bit better getting him the ball yesterday with 21 touches, but he was over 4 yards/carry for much of the game and we still went pass happy. 

Lamar also has had his share of struggles with mental mistakes and beating himself up after bad throws and such. He gets way too emotional sometimes. He has to just move on to the next play. When he starts taking his helmet off on the sideline and pouting or showing anger at himself, it's never a good omen for later in the game. Talent through the roof, but still needs to get over the hump vs very difficult defenses/schemes. 

That's my 2cents on the matter which are worth probably less considering I'm just a fan, but I've watched a ton of football and these are my observations. 

I agree with several of these points.  WRT taking advantage of the Eagles injuries yesterday, Mitchell was only out for 2 plays and the Eagles blitzed and created pressure on both.  I do not think this is a coincidence given that overall their blitz % is near the bottom of the league.  They were covering for that issue and it worked.  Who knows what the plan was had Lamar not been forced into a bad decision by pressure.  As for the safety situation, the Eagles are pretty deep there, they have a young Safety who was starting last year who is now 4 deep in the depth chart due to signings and improvements at that position.  I am not sure the drop off there is really all that great.  

 

I agree with all the other points though.  

[CAPE]

1 hour ago, MillvilleWx said:

We had one as our DC last year in Mike McDonald. Better situational coach that is proving his worth on a Seahawks team that he inherited with a mess of a roster, especially on the O-line and defense as a whole. Harbaugh's teams recently have been prone to penalties and the lack of vision on the most critical pieces of a team build nowadays (DE and Interior OL) during the offseason have been detrimental to team postseason success. Let's not forget his propensity to have some seriously critical shifts in game plans vs certain teams that seem to plague this team every year. He is out coached by Andy Reid every time, he is out coached by Tomlin pretty much every time these days, and he struggles to get this team to make changes against squads when key injuries affect the other side. 

I had a friend of mine texting me yesterday asking why the Ravens weren't taking advantage of their safety being hurt in the game? Also, Mitchell for Philly was out for a time and we never once picked on his replacement who is subpar. Just lack of awareness of what is going on during a game. Throw in some insanely questionable challenges the past 4 years that were never going to be overturned at any point (Harbaugh has lowest challenge win % of any NFL coach the past 5 seasons) and you have reason that his best years are behind him. Lamar saved his job in 2018 and he's been riding that wave of Lamar's talent ever since. He was a great coach in his early days, but that was a different era. If you don't adapt to the game, the game leaves you behind. I like Monken as our OC overall, but he also has had some questionable play calling situations in games. Henry needs to get 25+ touches/game from now on. This is his time to shine. We did a bit better getting him the ball yesterday with 21 touches, but he was over 4 yards/carry for much of the game and we still went pass happy. 

Lamar also has had his share of struggles with mental mistakes and beating himself up after bad throws and such. He gets way too emotional sometimes. He has to just move on to the next play. When he starts taking his helmet off on the sideline and pouting or showing anger at himself, it's never a good omen for later in the game. Talent through the roof, but still needs to get over the hump vs very difficult defenses/schemes. 

That's my 2cents on the matter which are worth probably less considering I'm just a fan, but I've watched a ton of football and these are my observations. 

Another one is the Harbaugh doghouse. Ben Cleveland is apparently in it despite playing well when he has gotten opportunities. Daniel Faalele is not a natural guard and he struggled badly yesterday, as he did against the Steelers. Cleveland is an actual OG who is in his 4th year now I believe, but only gets to play sparingly. Mekari has been even worse and commits a ton of penalties. Ravens have other options, but- Harbaugh said today in his pressor he likes how those guys have been playing. Fuuuuck.

[yoda]

Lol vague indeed

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/42743167/ravens-john-harbaugh-vague-future-wr-diontae-johnson

[Maestrobjwa]

2 hours ago, toolsheds said:

One other thing I believe that drives Raven's fans crazy is the lack of discipline. As long as I can remember, they take way too many bad penalties repeatedly.  It seems that it's also the same repeat offenders.  What is not getting translated from the coaching staff to correct this?  Also, the special teams have seemed to taken a step back too.  

Justin Tucker started having issues last year, which seems to point to Koch retiring and a new holder.  I am not a NFL kicker or holder, but something obviously is not right there.  It has cost them a few games, but in the past he has won games they should have lost too.....so I think he will get a longer leash because of that. 

I agree with the play calling too.  Seems like they try to get cute when just running the obvious play.  When the Ravens are most successful, they run the ball to set up the pass.   Seems like the running game has disappeared at times trying to prove that Lamar can pass the football too.  

If they just stuck to what works, I think that we would see a much more improved team and record. 

 

In regards to the penalties: Small sample size, but they have been better the last two weeks. Yesterday may have been the best day with only 3 penalties I can remember. Baby steps

[Maestrobjwa]

2 hours ago, toolsheds said:

Tomlin made a tough decision to play Wilson when he was healthy and was torched for it.  Look how that turned out.  I think that he also gets more out of his team when they have down years.

As far as Tomlin is concerned, while he may get a little more out of his teams, is he better than Harbaugh in the playoffs? His teams barely make the postseason and when they have, they haven't won one game in years! Folks pining after having a coach like him, but...playoff struggles are playoff struggles. At least Harbaugh has won more than he has, lol

[NorthArlington101]

12 minutes ago, yoda said:

Lol vague indeed

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/42743167/ravens-john-harbaugh-vague-future-wr-diontae-johnson

so weird - as a Steelers fan and someone with eyeballs for when he was on the Panthers, he's a good WR. Boggles the mind as to why they can't get him involved in the offense.

[Maestrobjwa]

1 minute ago, Maestrobjwa said:

As far as Tomlin is concerned, while he may get a little more out of his teams, is he better than Harbaugh in the playoffs? His teams barely make the postseason and when they have, they haven't won one game in years! Folks pining after having a coach like him, but...playoff struggles are playoff struggles. At least Harbaugh has won more than he has, lol

 

Just now, NorthArlington101 said:

so weird - as a Steelers fan and someone with eyeballs for when he was on the Panthers, he's a good WR. Boggles the mind as to why they can't get him involved in the offense.

There could be something going on we don't know about. They obviously wanna keep whatever it is in-house...so it's kinda pointless to speculate.

[Maestrobjwa]

All I know is...if they surprise and put it all together and go on a run...the doubters in our fanbase deserve ALL the smoke. Giving up on them at 8-5 at the beginning of December? Boo y'all...just boo. Believe it or not, we actually don't know what's going to happen. Playoffs can be unpredictable. And when you have a team like this one where the ingredients are there, but it's a matter of putting it all together...you really don't know. I mean 2012, yeah we have an aging Ray Lewis and Ed Reed, but be honest...did ANYBODY in early December think that team was gonna do what it did? That team was flawed too! We were:

1) the most penalized team in the league

2) The defense was mid (ranked in the 20s)

3) Finished with 14 players on IR

4) O-line was also mid 

And yet, the ingredients were all there, and it all came together at the right time. You never know what can spark a team. So that's why I'm just gonna watch and see...maybe it doesn't come together, but maybe it does 

[CAPE]

1 hour ago, CAPE said:

Another one is the Harbaugh doghouse. Ben Cleveland is apparently in it despite playing well when he has gotten opportunities. Daniel Faalele is not a natural guard and he struggled badly yesterday, as he did against the Steelers. Cleveland is an actual OG who is in his 4th year now I believe, but only gets to play sparingly. Mekari has been even worse and commits a ton of penalties. Ravens have other options, but- Harbaugh said today in his pressor he likes how those guys have been playing. Fuuuuck.

yep

 

[WxUSAF]

NC is getting our clipper this morning…

[mdhokie]

18 hours ago, cbmclean said:

Another outsider perspective: I believe that sports fans in general significantly underestimate the magnitude of the impact of random chance on football.  Obviously talent and coaching play a huge role, but a lot of good or bad things that happen in a football game or even an entire season are essentially random.  If Harbaugh really does consistently overperform his talent (I don't know if that is the case or not), then I would consider him a good coach by definition, even if he has stumbled in the playoffs.  Most coaches stumble in the playoffs. 

My question to the Raven's fans here is: who in your opinion is actually a BETTER coach than Harbaugh in today's NFL or in the recent past? 

Belichick is sitting on his couch, he'd be an upgrade over the current Harbaugh. 

[paulythegun]

if DCA fails to record at least 3" of snow prior to January 20, 2025, there will be ALL HELL TO PAY for those in charge who perpetrated these atrocities against Humanity. Those responsible will be hit harder than anybody has been hit in the long and storied History of the United States of America.

[RDM]

Murphy strikes again...  Heat in the house went out yesterday evening.  Kept things reasonable overnight with a couple portable IR and radiant heaters.  Down to 64 inside the house now.  Just fired up the fireplace insert with wood I split this morning.  (Locust burns great).  The ONE time I don't have any firewood split and the heat goes out.  Split about a half cord this morning to get through until the technician can get here to troubleshoot the heater controls. 

[Ji]

The Washington wizards are unwatchable

[LP08]

1 minute ago, Ji said:

The Washington wizards are unwatchable

But very “bet-able” the right way….

[wxdude64]

9 hours ago, RDM said:

Murphy strikes again...  Heat in the house went out yesterday evening.  Kept things reasonable overnight with a couple portable IR and radiant heaters.  Down to 64 inside the house now.  Just fired up the fireplace insert with wood I split this morning.  (Locust burns great).  The ONE time I don't have any firewood split and the heat goes out.  Split about a half cord this morning to get through until the technician can get here to troubleshoot the heater controls. 

I'm a couple hours away, but if you need some wood...

[toolsheds]

11 hours ago, Ji said:

The Washington wizards are unwatchable

Yes, Truly horrible. They don't play any defense and can't consistently score.   Jordan Poole has to be the worst trade by the organization ever. 

Should have taken Edy in the draft too as he could have been a piece to build around.  They also should have made Tom Thibideau an offer when he was available.  

[RickinBaltimore]

12 hours ago, Ji said:

The Washington wizards are unwatchable

They've BEEN unwatchable for decades. They haven't won 50 games in a season since 1978-79.

[TowsonTownT]

On 12/2/2024 at 11:52 AM, psuhoffman said:

I am shocked and confused (but interested and willing to listen with an open mind) by the perspective of Ravens fans here.  As a neutral outsider (I neither particularly love but definitely do not hate the Ravens) I view them as a team with a good but not great roster that typically overperforms their talent level over the past 10 years.  This year, they are about where the talent level says they should be.  The talk about firing the coach is crazy to me. 

I did think maybe I was simply missing something and off on my evaluation so I looked at all the pre-season roster rankings I could find from the major publications like PFF, ESPN, Fox sports.  I looked at 8 roster rankings in all and the Ravens were between 3 and 9 with an average of 6.5.  I guess you could argue they are slightly under performing their talent this season since at the moment they have the 9th best record and by talent they should be 6 or 7 but that seems pretty minor, and I think they've had a harder schedule are are playing better in reality than a few of those teams with better records.  

I will admit I don't watch them closely enough and maybe this is due to boneheaded decisions that I just don't notice...but I didn't see anything in the game yesterday that he did that I found egregious or harmful to the team.  They lost because the kicker missed a few important kicks but mostly because the Eagles defense did to them exactly what they've done to everyone all year and the Eagles offense ground them down late which is also what they've done to everyone all year.  And the game ended about exactly how you would expect given the talent on both squads, the Eagles have the slightly better roster and they won a close game.  

What am I missing? 

Only item I would add to this is, this is the first season that Jackson's jumbo contract is in place which affected their ability to adequately fill the holes left by the departures of Clowney and Queen. This will only get worse as his salary expands even further in the years ahead. Unfortunately we may have seen the peak of what the team can do. Honestly, the Commanders are potentially in a much better position in the next few years compared to the Ravens in that they have a terrific quarterback on a rookie contract. That could prove to be a winning combination for teams in the coming years unless rules are changed to bring down the importance of the QB position which have driven up the salaries for QBs on their second contracts to astronomical heights. 

[nw baltimore wx]

I'm rooting hard for the surprise snow squall line just before the morning commute tomorrow.

[Kay]

2 minutes ago, nw baltimore wx said:

I'm rooting hard for the surprise snow squall line just before the morning commute tomorrow.

Just came here to post this. Still on first flakes watch. Vigilance!

[TowsonTownT]

1 hour ago, RickinBaltimore said:

They've BEEN unwatchable for decades. They haven't won 50 games in a season since 1978-79.

They've actually been fun to watch this year, with the trick being to watch all the high draft picks bloom into stars rather than focusing on wins/losses. Also focus on the fact that those losses could land us the kid from Duke next year.