March 2024 General Discussion

[Brian D]

Heavier snow band blossomed right over the head of the lake with moisture feed coming in from the S/SW. Radar looks anemic, then the lake air interaction causes a blow up of snow. That's enhancement for ya.  

[Chinook]

my area went from a high of 42 to a high of 71

[bowtie`]

^ Got to love springtime temperature changes.

[michsnowfreak]

1 hour ago, mississaugasnow said:

Yep, and to be fair you guys out west seem to have crazy low lowest snowfall. For example Ottawa is at 45” and it’s one of their least snowy winters ever 

so if Ottawa is at 15” come mid January to early February it makes sense for them to start talking about futility 

You guys out west I think you mentioned are 12”. So I see why talking about it early is pointless. 

We have not had a sub-20" winter since 1969, but they did happen. Not frequently, but  Detroits full top 20 lowest snowfall

01.) 12.9" - 1936-37
02.) 13.2" - 1881-82
03.) 13.7" - 1948-49
04.) 15.2" - 1918-19
05.) 15.4" - 1965-66
06.) 15.8" - 1889-90
07.) 16.6" - 1952-53
08.) 17.1" - 1968-69
09.) 18.0" - 1957-58
09.) 18.0" - 1960-61
11.) 20.0" - 1982-83
12.) 22.0" - 1945-46
13.) 22.6" - 1937-38
14.) 22.8" - 1943-44
15.) 23.2" - 1888-89
16.) 23.4" - 1941-42
16.) 23.4" - 1997-98
18.) 23.7" - 1999-00
19.) 24.1" - 2003-04
20.) 25.1" - 1988-89
 

Some late season facts about the above...they were terrible enough, but look where they could have been without.... 

#4) 1918-19: A heavy, wet snowstorm of 5.8" on Mar 9th, largest  of the season, melted in 2 days, gave a big boost to the total

#6) 1889-90: A 5.0" heavy, wet snowstorm on March 29th was by far largest of the season

#9) 1960-61: Winters fiercest storm was its last - 3.0" fell at Detroit on April 16/17, but 4-5" fell in some suburbs and blizzard conditions clogged highways in west MI

#11) 1982-83: Disaster winter sees a late rally with a 7.3" snowstorm March 20/21 then another 3.4" snowfall April 17th

#13) 1937-38: 3 April snowfalls (4th, 6th, 8th) dropped a total of 3.9" at Detroit. The 4th dropped up to 4" well north of Detroit and the 6th dropped 6-7" near the Ohio border

#14) 1943-44: 15.7" of the seasons 22.8" fell after Feb 9th & 3.8" fell before November 16th,. So from Nov 17-Feb 9, a total of 3.3" fell.

#16) 1941-42: A 4.2" wet snowfall on April 9/10 would be the seasons largest

[roardog]

I know this is the March thread but I’d like to point out that April is my least favorite month. Let’s just get right on to May.

[michsnowfreak]

1 hour ago, mississaugasnow said:

Coastal cities with 0-2” worst season can’t really talk about it until April haha 

New York City saw just 0.5" in 1997-98 until a freak, unexpected snowstorm dropped 5.0" on March 22nd. It was gone in less than a day. But instead of ranking as least snowy winter, due to that unexpected spring storm, it "only" ranks as 8th least snowy.

[mississaugasnow]

21 minutes ago, michsnowfreak said:

We have not had a sub-20" winter since 1969, but they did happen. Not frequently, but  Detroits full top 20 lowest snowfall

01.) 12.9" - 1936-37
02.) 13.2" - 1881-82
03.) 13.7" - 1948-49
04.) 15.2" - 1918-19
05.) 15.4" - 1965-66
06.) 15.8" - 1889-90
07.) 16.6" - 1952-53
08.) 17.1" - 1968-69
09.) 18.0" - 1957-58
09.) 18.0" - 1960-61
11.) 20.0" - 1982-83
12.) 22.0" - 1945-46
13.) 22.6" - 1937-38
14.) 22.8" - 1943-44
15.) 23.2" - 1888-89
16.) 23.4" - 1941-42
16.) 23.4" - 1997-98
18.) 23.7" - 1999-00
19.) 24.1" - 2003-04
20.) 25.1" - 1988-89
 

Some late season facts about the above...they were terrible enough, but look where they could have been without.... 

#4) 1918-19: A heavy, wet snowstorm of 5.8" on Mar 9th, largest  of the season, melted in 2 days, gave a big boost to the total

#6) 1889-90: A 5.0" heavy, wet snowstorm on March 29th was by far largest of the season

#9) 1960-61: Winters fiercest storm was its last - 3.0" fell at Detroit on April 16/17, but 4-5" fell in some suburbs and blizzard conditions clogged highways in west MI

#11) 1982-83: Disaster winter sees a late rally with a 7.3" snowstorm March 20/21 then another 3.4" snowfall April 17th

#13) 1937-38: 3 April snowfalls (4th, 6th, 8th) dropped a total of 3.9" at Detroit. The 4th dropped up to 4" well north of Detroit and the 6th dropped 6-7" near the Ohio border

#14) 1943-44: 15.7" of the seasons 22.8" fell after Feb 9th & 3.8" fell before November 16th,. So from Nov 17-Feb 9, a total of 3.3" fell.

#16) 1941-42: A 4.2" wet snowfall on April 9/10 would be the seasons largest

Toronto had nearly 2 sub 20" winters in 3 years back in 2009-10 (20.6") and 11-12 (16"). 2011-12 will probably be very difficult to ever get lower for Toronto as 16" is insanely low. 

Those stats might also be why I'm more prone to start discussing futility records since Toronto has been racking up a few recently (Last 20 years)

[mississaugasnow]

24 minutes ago, michsnowfreak said:

We have not had a sub-20" winter since 1969, but they did happen. Not frequently, but  Detroits full top 20 lowest snowfall

01.) 12.9" - 1936-37
02.) 13.2" - 1881-82
03.) 13.7" - 1948-49
04.) 15.2" - 1918-19
05.) 15.4" - 1965-66
06.) 15.8" - 1889-90
07.) 16.6" - 1952-53
08.) 17.1" - 1968-69
09.) 18.0" - 1957-58
09.) 18.0" - 1960-61
11.) 20.0" - 1982-83
12.) 22.0" - 1945-46
13.) 22.6" - 1937-38
14.) 22.8" - 1943-44
15.) 23.2" - 1888-89
16.) 23.4" - 1941-42
16.) 23.4" - 1997-98
18.) 23.7" - 1999-00
19.) 24.1" - 2003-04
20.) 25.1" - 1988-89
 

Some late season facts about the above...they were terrible enough, but look where they could have been without.... 

#4) 1918-19: A heavy, wet snowstorm of 5.8" on Mar 9th, largest  of the season, melted in 2 days, gave a big boost to the total

#6) 1889-90: A 5.0" heavy, wet snowstorm on March 29th was by far largest of the season

#9) 1960-61: Winters fiercest storm was its last - 3.0" fell at Detroit on April 16/17, but 4-5" fell in some suburbs and blizzard conditions clogged highways in west MI

#11) 1982-83: Disaster winter sees a late rally with a 7.3" snowstorm March 20/21 then another 3.4" snowfall April 17th

#13) 1937-38: 3 April snowfalls (4th, 6th, 8th) dropped a total of 3.9" at Detroit. The 4th dropped up to 4" well north of Detroit and the 6th dropped 6-7" near the Ohio border

#14) 1943-44: 15.7" of the seasons 22.8" fell after Feb 9th & 3.8" fell before November 16th,. So from Nov 17-Feb 9, a total of 3.3" fell.

#16) 1941-42: A 4.2" wet snowfall on April 9/10 would be the seasons largest

This years biggest snowstorm of 4.3" happened on March 22nd which is pretty unusual. What was weird about this late snowstorm was it was dry powdery snow. 

[Malacka11]

Trees are really sneezing out there tn

[Lightning]

9 hours ago, roardog said:

I know this is the March thread but I’d like to point out that April is my least favorite month. Let’s just get right on to May.

I know what you mean.  April is when the GLs do a number on us in many parts MI.

[Lightning]

9 hours ago, michsnowfreak said:

We have not had a sub-20" winter since 1969, but they did happen. Not frequently, but  Detroits full top 20 lowest snowfall

01.) 12.9" - 1936-37
02.) 13.2" - 1881-82
03.) 13.7" - 1948-49
04.) 15.2" - 1918-19
05.) 15.4" - 1965-66
06.) 15.8" - 1889-90
07.) 16.6" - 1952-53
08.) 17.1" - 1968-69
09.) 18.0" - 1957-58
09.) 18.0" - 1960-61
11.) 20.0" - 1982-83
12.) 22.0" - 1945-46
13.) 22.6" - 1937-38
14.) 22.8" - 1943-44
15.) 23.2" - 1888-89
16.) 23.4" - 1941-42
16.) 23.4" - 1997-98
18.) 23.7" - 1999-00
19.) 24.1" - 2003-04
20.) 25.1" - 1988-89
 

Some late season facts about the above...they were terrible enough, but look where they could have been without.... 

#4) 1918-19: A heavy, wet snowstorm of 5.8" on Mar 9th, largest  of the season, melted in 2 days, gave a big boost to the total

#6) 1889-90: A 5.0" heavy, wet snowstorm on March 29th was by far largest of the season

#9) 1960-61: Winters fiercest storm was its last - 3.0" fell at Detroit on April 16/17, but 4-5" fell in some suburbs and blizzard conditions clogged highways in west MI

#11) 1982-83: Disaster winter sees a late rally with a 7.3" snowstorm March 20/21 then another 3.4" snowfall April 17th

#13) 1937-38: 3 April snowfalls (4th, 6th, 8th) dropped a total of 3.9" at Detroit. The 4th dropped up to 4" well north of Detroit and the 6th dropped 6-7" near the Ohio border

#14) 1943-44: 15.7" of the seasons 22.8" fell after Feb 9th & 3.8" fell before November 16th,. So from Nov 17-Feb 9, a total of 3.3" fell.

#16) 1941-42: A 4.2" wet snowfall on April 9/10 would be the seasons largest

Just using this list...

Worst in my life was => 11.) 20.0" - 1982-83.  This winter was pure evil.  To go for the record low and have it swiped out in the end.

Next would be => 20.) 25.1" - 1988-89.  It was huge LES year.  MTU neared the record; unfortunately it was one year to early for me.

Then comes => 18.) 23.7" - 1999-00.  In general that winter just sucked.  Interestingly it was sandwiched between to incredible periods events.  January 99 & Nov./Dec. 2000

16.) 23.4" - 1997-98  =>  This winter was so overly forecasted to be warm that it didn't really bother me.  

19.) 24.1" - 2003-04 => Detroit bad winter; not the norther burbs!!

Ones not on this list. 

95-96 ... only saving grace was March!! 

11-12 ... meh; very boring winter overall.  Morch made for an interesting finish (but very bad for local fruit industry).

 

[Allsnow]

15 hours ago, OrdIowPitMsp said:

This season has reminded me how true this is for our region. I won’t give my final season grade until 4/15 at the earliest and this storm has likely bumped it up a half letter.  
 

WWA hoisted for a couple more inches of snow with the deformation band as we fall back below freezing overnight into tomorrow morning. There will be a rock solid glacier by Wednesday, which looks downright frigid for late March. 

Looks like the rain/snow line has collapsed through the city now. What a wild event for your area…

 

The qpf amount is impressive for the Midwest 

[OrdIowPitMsp]

1 hour ago, Allsnow said:

Looks like the rain/snow line has collapsed through the city now. What a wild event for your area…

 

The qpf amount is impressive for the Midwest 

Absolutely puking snow. Roads are completely covered. Building up that late March snowpack. This storm has been awesome. Finally kicked the doldrums of nothingness we’ve been in for months. 

[mnchaserguy]

Absolutely puking snow. Roads are completely covered. Building up that late March snowpack. This storm has been awesome. Finally kicked the doldrums of nothingness we’ve been in for months. 

Yep. Looks like MSP is in the sweet spot. The area of snow is just rotating right over us. The Duluth radar looks crazy too. North Shore is getting dumped on again today. Already well over a foot in Duluth and Two Harbors.


.

[bowtie`]

5 minutes ago, mnchaserguy said:

Yep. Looks like MSP is in the sweet spot. The are of snow is just rotating right over us. The Duluth radar looks crazy too. North Shore is getting dumped on again today. Already well over a foot in Duluth and Two Harbors.


.

lol you made me click on the Duluth Canal cam and I got to see the Gott leaving in the blowing snow.

[Allsnow]

49 minutes ago, OrdIowPitMsp said:

Absolutely puking snow. Roads are completely covered. Building up that late March snowpack. This storm has been awesome. Finally kicked the doldrums of nothingness we’ve been in for months. 

Yup, with temps crashing through the day it will freeze solid. Enjoy 

[OrdIowPitMsp]

My office is a cornfield in Lino Lakes today. 

[TheClimateChanger]

 

12 hours ago, mississaugasnow said:

Toronto had nearly 2 sub 20" winters in 3 years back in 2009-10 (20.6") and 11-12 (16"). 2011-12 will probably be very difficult to ever get lower for Toronto as 16" is insanely low. 

Those stats might also be why I'm more prone to start discussing futility records since Toronto has been racking up a few recently (Last 20 years)

Same in Ohio. Just look at Cleveland the last two years. There hasn't been an above normal season since 2014-2015, and that was actually slightly below the normal in effect at the time [normal snowfall dropped several inches with the 1991-2020 update]. 2013-2014 was the last time a season came in above the existing normals.

Note all of the low snow years were from the city office data. The heaviest snow occurs south and especially east of the city (see below), so we can conclude snowfall would have been heavier at the airport location. Of course, snowfall measurement procedure has also changed over that time frame.

Of note, Alfred Hyde was a long time cooperative observer for the Smithsonian Institution who kept temperature, precipitation and snowfall records back to 1854-1855. His lowest snowfall winter was 1865-66 with 21.6 inches. Looking at this, we can conclude only one year on record had substantially less snow than last winter dating all the way back to the mid 19th century: 1918-1919. The other two years with less (1931-1932, 1865-1866) were minor differences (1.2 inches, and 0.1 inches, respectively). Also of note, prior to last winter, there had never been less than 30 inches observed in a season since records moved to the airport [around 1940, give or take a year]. The last time less than 30 inches was observed was 1932-1933. There is a good chance that metric is about to be exceeded for the second consecutive winter, barring some late season action.

[TheClimateChanger]

Same story in Toledo, less than an hour drive from DTW airport.

Of course, @michsnowfreaklikes to point out a 6.0" observation from the winter of 1889-1890, but I'm guessing that lacks daily resolution as it is not part of the threaded record, which begins in 1890-1891.

[TheClimateChanger]

Interesting long-term data from Lake Mendota in Wisconsin.

 

[Brian D]

2 hours ago, OrdIowPitMsp said:

Absolutely puking snow. Roads are completely covered. Building up that late March snowpack. This storm has been awesome. Finally kicked the doldrums of nothingness we’ve been in for months. 

10" yesterday imby, and we got a little rn last night before the band turned to snow. A couple inches of powder, and snowin good atm.  Told my grandson a couple months ago, watch, it'll snow a lot in the Spring if we don't get much over Winter.

 

Lookin at totals from yesterday, a pretty good swath of 12-17" along the North Shore. Add today's snow, when all said n done, I'd say a pretty good storm.

[SolidIcewx]

1 hour ago, OrdIowPitMsp said:

My office is a cornfield in Lino Lakes today. 

I’ll take that office any day of the week. Grey and wet at my office. Here’s a sneak peak. Glad to see you finally got some good precip. A nice amount to soak into the ground. Hopefully a wet spring to come.

[roardog]

2 minutes ago, SolidIcewx said:

I’ll take that office any day of the week. Grey and wet at my office. Here’s a sneak peak. Glad to see you finally got some good precip. A nice amount to soak into the ground. Hopefully a wet spring to come.

Your office is full of trash. Do you have a janitor or maintenance or something? lol

[SolidIcewx]

Just now, roardog said:

Your office is full of trash. Do you have a janitor or maintenance or something? lol

It’s one of the “Hoods” in Detroit. Not sure how far I’ll get with HR.

[A-L-E-K]

14 minutes ago, SolidIcewx said:

I’ll take that office any day of the week. Grey and wet at my office. Here’s a sneak peak. Glad to see you finally got some good precip. A nice amount to soak into the ground. Hopefully a wet spring to come.

looks like romania or something

[michsnowfreak]

1 hour ago, TheClimateChanger said:

Same story in Toledo, less than an hour drive from DTW airport.

Of course, @michsnowfreaklikes to point out a 6.0" observation from the winter of 1889-1890, but I'm guessing that lacks daily resolution as it is not part of the threaded record, which begins in 1890-1891.

Toledo snowfall records began in 1885. They were always included until nws Cleveland randomly revamped their website and it now starts in 1890. There was no missing data, so the 6.0" figure is absolutely believable.

And actually, Toledo Express airport is a little bit over an hour drive from Detroit Metro airport, although I have absolutely no idea what Detroit has to do with Toledo. Especially as I have said many times the state-line snow cutoff the last 2 winters has been insane. 

Not sure why we are using DTW as a drive time base, but Detroit Metro Airport (23.5") is a 65 minute drive to Toledo Express (9.6") airport but only a 25 minute drive to U of M Ann Arbor, where 36.9" has fallen this year.

[michsnowfreak]

5 hours ago, Lightning said:

Just using this list...

Worst in my life was => 11.) 20.0" - 1982-83.  This winter was pure evil.  To go for the record low and have it swiped out in the end.

Next would be => 20.) 25.1" - 1988-89.  It was huge LES year.  MTU neared the record; unfortunately it was one year to early for me.

Then comes => 18.) 23.7" - 1999-00.  In general that winter just sucked.  Interestingly it was sandwiched between to incredible periods events.  January 99 & Nov./Dec. 2000

16.) 23.4" - 1997-98  =>  This winter was so overly forecasted to be warm that it didn't really bother me.  

19.) 24.1" - 2003-04 => Detroit bad winter; not the norther burbs!!

Ones not on this list. 

95-96 ... only saving grace was March!! 

11-12 ... meh; very boring winter overall.  Morch made for an interesting finish (but very bad for local fruit industry).

 

1999-00 & 2003-04 get a pass due to decent snowcover stretches

[TheClimateChanger]

50 minutes ago, michsnowfreak said:

Toledo snowfall records began in 1885. They were always included until nws Cleveland randomly revamped their website and it now starts in 1890. There was no missing data, so the 6.0" figure is absolutely believable.

And actually, Toledo Express airport is a little bit over an hour drive from Detroit Metro airport, although I have absolutely no idea what Detroit has to do with Toledo. Especially as I have said many times the state-line snow cutoff the last 2 winters has been insane. 

Not sure why we are using DTW as a drive time base, but Detroit Metro Airport (23.5") is a 65 minute drive to Toledo Express (9.6") airport but only a 25 minute drive to U of M Ann Arbor, where 36.9" has fallen this year.

I said from Toledo to DTW airport. All of the records prior to the mid 1950s are from the city proper. Of course, it's a bit longer drive out to the airport. The snowfall records were retrieved from xMacis, which has nothing prior to 1890-91.

[TheClimateChanger]

Here's Lansing, Michigan snowfall records [earlier years at East Lansing, Michigan], excluding a few years with excessive missing data:

Maybe a bit questionable that the very first year with data ranks as lowest. Looking at the monthly data, that looks mostly a function of the fact that precipitation was 25-50 percent of modern norms for the bulk of the cold season.

[TheClimateChanger]

Some other snowfall futility notes.  Currently, fourth least on record at Erie, PA. Note these values have been manually corrected by me. xMacis and the NWS CLE site [which uses the xMacis] has a bunch of random missing data mainly from the 1920s-1940s, where snowfall actually was observed.

Looking at these values, it will be the first season with less than 40" since 1952-1953, and the first season with less than 30" since 1932-1933 [barring some late season magic]. In recent decades, the low to mid 40-inch range was the absolute minima at Erie Airport.

In fact, if we narrow the search to the most recent 71 winters [dating back to 1953-1954] at the airport site, it's UGLY. The least amount of snow observed in the 70 years from 1953-1954 to 2022-2023 was 41.2 inches in 1982-83. Last year's 52.0 inches was sixth least in that stretch. This winter is at 24.8 inches. Wow.