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2024-2025 La Nina


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15 hours ago, GaWx said:
The last two Euros at least have had no BN anomalies in Canada or in any of N America on the latest one for that matter for DJF as a whole. The runs are pretty strongly suggesting AN dominating at least the E half of Canada. I haven’t seen the month by month breakdown but the Euro has a much stronger warm signal than the CFS.


Copernicus C3S FWIW:

 

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, snowman19 said:

@40/70 Benchmark Very good call on this being a CP La Niña months ago. You never bought into this being an EP event at any point in time
 

Nor on the idea that La Nina would fail to develop...still think a healthy weak to bordering on moderate event per ONI is in the offing. This post is from July.

https://easternmassweather.blogspot.com/2024/07/enso-proving-deceptive-once-again.html

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ENSO has always been a strong point for me. My weaker point had been the polar domain, but I have improved a lot with respect to that in recent years. My current stuggles are adjusting to climate change and being too reliant on analogs that are archaic, relatively speaking. I will try to improve on that this season.

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6 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

I was never crazy about that analog, but I can see giving it a shout out due to how well it matches the summer pattern.

Ever since met fall started, we have deviated 180 degrees from that year

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6 minutes ago, snowman19 said:

Ever since met fall started, we have deviated 180 degrees from that year

Thankfully in terms of getting the forecast right, but unfortunate from the perspective of a NE winter ethusiast.

What is said today is that forecasters on social media do everything in their power to mainiupulate the truth and avoid accountability for forecasting errors....but its the ultimate irony because what people really respect is transparency and a willingness to use errors as a vehicle for the self-reflection and critical thinking that drives growth and improvement. Karma is a b*tch.

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2 hours ago, bluewave said:

AO volatility continues with one of the strongest October AO near 5 SD reversals following the recent very strong forcing near India.


IMG_1560.thumb.png.5cb9eaebfd8afe292b36dd956313fcda.png

IMG_1561.gif.78ab709d895f479de1efeda68f6dc918.gif

I wouldn't mind that during the winter assuming warmth is not prohibitive (theoretical, not a forecast) because I would rather have volatility with large storms, then a consistent cold with nickle and dime events.

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28 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Man, I would take that map and run....I would do naked carwheels across Antartica for normal snowfall at this point.

Please, 40/7O, just snow angels. Also stay well dressed. The activity could be a gender changer. Stay well, as always…..

 

IMG_0850.png

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ENSO has always been a strong point for me. My weaker point had been the polar domain, but I have improved a lot with respect to that in recent years. My current stuggles are adjusting to climate change and being too reliant on analogs that are archaic, relatively speaking. I will try to improve on that this season.

Speaking of the polar domain, this is just ridiculous. Arctic sea ice. Even if someone is an AGW skeptic, they have to acknowledge that something we’ve never seen before is happening over the last 10 years:

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22 minutes ago, GaWx said:

 There’s still no ONI/RONI update for JAS. I’m assuming this is related to the Asheville data outage.

At this point, I don't think we're getting an update until 11/4 or 11/5. I think JAS and ASO will be released at the same time. If we still don't get an update, I might just ask Eric Webb if he can update the Ensemble ONI. If I can just get a JAS/ASO number from either source, then I'll have a good feel on where the ENSO state will be during Northern Hemisphere winter 2024-25.

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38 minutes ago, PhiEaglesfan712 said:

At this point, I don't think we're getting an update until 11/4 or 11/5. I think JAS and ASO will be released at the same time. If we still don't get an update, I might just ask Eric Webb if he can update the Ensemble ONI. If I can just get a JAS/ASO number from either source, then I'll have a good feel on where the ENSO state will be during Northern Hemisphere winter 2024-25.

Yea, I don't get why they can't just tweet out the updated value.

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4 hours ago, snowman19 said:

Again, seasonal model, FWIW. That said, Canada can be way above normal at their latitude from Dec-Mar and still snow

Yeah, Canada hasn’t had a colder than average winter since 2014 by their 1961-1990 reference period. Their last top 10 coldest winter was back in 1994 when we had all the record cold in the East and very impressive snowfall. But in general the warmest winters are El Niño. They set the record by a wide margin last winter. The 20-21 winter was their 5 warmest overall and 16-17 was 8th warmest. So some recent La Ninas have also been very warm by Canadian standards. 

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/eccc/documents/csv/climate-trends-variations/winter2024/Winter_2024_regional_temp_table_e.csv


https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/climate-change/science-research-data/climate-trends-variability/trends-variations/winter-2024-bulletin.html

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3 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Yeah, Canada hasn’t had a colder than average winter since 2014 by their 1961-1990 reference period. Their last top 10 coldest winter was back in 1994 when we had all the record cold in the East and very impressive snowfall. But in general the warmest winters are El Niño. They set the record by a wide margin last winter. The 20-21 winter was their 5 warmest overall and 16-17 was 8th warmest. So some recent La Ninas have also been very warm by Canadian standards. 

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/eccc/documents/csv/climate-trends-variations/winter2024/Winter_2024_regional_temp_table_e.csv


https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/climate-change/science-research-data/climate-trends-variability/trends-variations/winter-2024-bulletin.html

I think it should be clear that when I say that I don't expect a furnace in Canda, its relative to our contemporary climate...not that is going to necessarily be "cold" relative to 1961-1990 standard...that may never be done again.

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14 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

I think it should be clear that when I say that I don't expect a furnace in Canda, its relative to our contemporary climate...not that is going to necessarily be "cold" relative to 1961-1990 standard...that may never be done again.

I don’t think it was a coincidence that 2018 was the last top 10 coldest fall in Canada and Rockford, IL broke their all-time coldest  temperature at -31 in late January. Granted the record cold that month was shorter lived and of a smaller aerial coverage than past Midwest Arctic outbreaks from the 1980s, but the cold in Canada during the fall gives us some hints ahead of time.It’s been a similar pattern for the Northeast with the strongest Arctic outbreaks over the last decade going to our west with the stronger WAR Southeast Ridge.

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/eccc/documents/csv/climate-trends-variations/autumn2023/Autumn_2023_regional_temp_table_e.csv

 

https://www.weather.gov/lot/RecordColdJan2019

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3 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

ENSO has always been a strong point for me. My weaker point had been the polar domain, but I have improved a lot with respect to that in recent years. My current stuggles are adjusting to climate change and being too reliant on analogs that are archaic, relatively speaking. I will try to improve on that this season.

Can you consider using a different word instead of "archaic?" I remember all those years as if they were yesterday. :oldman:

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30 minutes ago, mitchnick said:

Can you consider using a different word instead of "archaic?" I remember all those years as if they were yesterday. :oldman:

My use of the word archiac is more of a reflection of how fast the climate has been changging as opposed to how much time has passed since some of these analog years.

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What I really like about the PDO in October, is how it correlates with an independent pattern. 

As you can see by January, PDO is associated with PNA conditions. the 500mb pattern probably is associated with similar waters over this time. 

1A-26.gif

But in October, an independent correlation appears

1aa-16.gif

I think I mentioned this in August, and sure enough with the -PDO record breaking and holding a very strong pattern correlation over the last 4 years, a strong Gulf of Alaska trough has transpired this month. 

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8 hours ago, snowman19 said:

[monthly subsurface]

I'm not sure why you're posting September TAO/Triton subsurface.. the subsurface has since neutralized, with no regions greater than +1c. CPC is still showing cold subsurface waters though. I don't know which one is more accurate. 

I will say that we probably don't see an official La Nina with 5 consecutive months < -0.5. That would give us only our 2nd ENSO Neutral year in that last 11, if I'm right. Of course, other things like the MEI and RONI are showing La Nina, and they have higher pattern correlations. But I wonder how much those things are associated with the PDO? PDO at -3 right now is nothing to overlook, given how strong of an indicator it has been over the last 4-30 years. 

This October is fitting the -PDO H5 about as closely as you are ever going to see. I would love to separate this and ENSO, to see if my ENSO subsurface theory still holds up. 

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4 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

I was never crazy about that analog, but I can see giving it a shout out due to how well it matches the summer pattern.

2013 started a 2-3 year regime shift in the Fall. I thought it wasn't worth considering unless we saw something similar this Fall, which would have been difficult with a -3 pdo.  The +NAO this year, now coming up on its 9th bout in the medium-range could signify the coming of a global phase shift though. We'll have to see how that goes next year. 

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13 minutes ago, Stormchaserchuck1 said:

I'm not sure why you're posting September TAO/Triton subsurface.. the subsurface has since neutralized, with no regions greater than +1c. CPC is still showing cold subsurface waters though. I don't know which one is more accurate. 

I will say that we probably don't see an official La Nina with 5 consecutive months < -0.5. That would give us only our 2nd ENSO Neutral year in that last 11, if I'm right. Of course, other things like the MEI and RONI are showing La Nina, and they have higher pattern correlations. But I wonder how much those things are associated with the PDO? PDO at -3 right now is nothing to overlook, given how strong of an indicator it has been over the last 4-30 years. 

This October is fitting the -PDO H5 about as closely as you are ever going to see. I would love to separate this and ENSO, to see if my ENSO subsurface theory still holds up. 

Because I copied the wrong link. My mistake

 

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12 minutes ago, Stormchaserchuck1 said:

2013 started a 2-3 year regime shift in the Fall. I thought it wasn't worth considering unless we saw something similar this Fall, which would have been difficult with a -3 pdo.  The +NAO this year, now coming up on its 9th bout in the medium-range could signify the coming of a global phase shift though. We'll have to see how that goes next year. 

Why? Hasn't +NAO been the rule?

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