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2/13 Significant/Major Winter Storm Discussion & Observations


Northof78
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1 minute ago, SBUWX23 said:

See March storms, early April storms, and Nov 2018. 

Nov 18 might be my favorite example.  It was also an example where the NWS completely overestimated marginal temp impacts on a high intensity snowfall, both with regard to mixing in the column and melting on the ground - and I was posting all the same things for that storm as I have been for this one - intensity is everything (or at least a lot of it).  

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1 minute ago, SBUWX23 said:

See March storms, early April storms, and Nov 2018. 

I def remember some march storms sticking, I think Manhattan will be a lot of wet roads but in parts of Brooklyn queens esp Bronx and Staten Island you’ll see roads covered especially with heavy rates 

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17 minutes ago, Dark Star said:

Any type of dry slotting with marginal temperatures spells no accumulation for coastal areas...

To be fair, the dry slotting would be temporary following by several hours of backend snow as the system moves East. 

You can kind of see the possible dry slot here on the 12K NAM.

For areas along I-80 and points North this is going to be a very big snow storm.

namconus_ref_frzn_neus_25.png

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I tend to never trust any guidance in these scenarios where you don't have a setup like a 12/2005 where you see stupid gradients from say JFK to LGA....usually in these types of systems the gradient line sets up between Sandy Hook to SI/JFK or well NW of the metro...to see it on a storm of this setup be over top of the metro never really occurs though guidance sometimes tries to suggest it

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1 minute ago, wishcast_hater said:

LOL - Backend Snow.


.

It’s more a strong CCB from a bombing low. Not your dying backend band. The CCB will be getting stronger and more intense as the storm pulls east 

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8 minutes ago, RU848789 said:

Come on in, the water's fine!!

Haha reminds me of the Kick The Can episode of The Twilight Zone. 

Anyway I'm so glad this trended in the right direction and we're actually gonna get lucky. I wasn't too high on this threat a few days ago. Looking good for at least a 4 to 6 inch storm for our area. 

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1 minute ago, jm1220 said:

Mid level lows show how this CCB might really happen. Looks good at 500/700mb. 

There will be deformation banding, the challenge now is how large, is it multiple bands, and where do they set up and move across. The fast movement argue that many will at least see it for a time even east of higher qpf predictions

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1 minute ago, jm1220 said:

Mid level lows show how this CCB might really happen. Looks good at 500/700mb. 

The mid level lows close off in a very good spot for heavy snow in our area. And the low is still deepening as it passes to our South. The system doesn't occlude until it's way up in Canada. 

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1 minute ago, NJwx85 said:

The mid level lows close off in a very good spot for heavy snow in our area. And the low is still deepening as it passes to our South. The system doesn't occlude until it's way up in Canada. 

Imagine we had a good airmass..

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I was in Manhattan for the April 1982 storm.  It stuck on the roads and temperatures the day before was I believe were in the low 50's.  Granted during the event temperatures fell into the m/u 20's, that is a big difference compared to 32-34 tomorrow.   Late morning into early afternoon would have done late January or early February proud.  Heavy snow with thunder and lightning and intense rates of fall got the job done.  Also, that storm was not that different than this.  Bombing low off Del-Mar-Va moving NE to near BM.  If I recall correctly CNJ had much less than CP and SNJ had little to none. 

Guess my point is that if temperature can fall to 32 and you get 1-2" rates for a while it will stick to the roads but it has to snow HARD.

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26 minutes ago, SBUWX23 said:

See March storms, early April storms, and Nov 2018. 

While I agree with you regarding March/April and Nov, I would argue that this many times is the Sun Angel over anything else. I usually roll my eyes at Sun Angle arguments, however, here is where I believe the lack thereof of the Sun Angle plays a roll. As you know - during mid to late March and April as well as Nov, the Sun Angle burns considerable accumulation off the bat as it allows considerable more energy to reach the earth. (Neutrinos I believe) were shown by several studies to significantly increase in the times you mentioned, compared to winter months. These particles allow for significant energy transfer and thus snow rates must be much higher to overcome this energy transfer (and earths absorption) from the sun. During February, however, there is a considerable decline in this number of energized particles hitting the earth (compared to the aforementioned months/time periods). Therefore, I would argue that a snow storm with heavy rates in February will create quite the havoc throughout the Tri-State. Perhaps ratios take a hit, but this time of year - I would say the Tri-State is in for a rough time (travel wise).

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1 minute ago, nycsnow said:

Imagine we had a good airmass..

You have a Southeasterly flow to start which doesn't flip around until the low passes offshore. If you had a really strong high to the North Philly and DC would be getting snow and NYC would be on the Northern fringe instead of Albany. 

gfs_T850_neus_4.png

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1 hour ago, RU848789 said:

Think TWC forecast is the best I've seen and they've really gotten much better the past several years (remember, they were the only ones who nailed Jan-2015) with some very good mets and model discussions these days. I think the NWS adustments at 4 am were in the right direction, but not enough, especially towards 276/195 and the coast, where I think TWC is likely to be better. We'll see of course.

akX9cDY.png

I totally agree with you. Many people on here love to rail against TWC as they used to be awful...and due to their built in biases about what it used to be, are unwillingly to accept their  improvements

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7 minutes ago, KeithB said:

I totally agree with you. Many people on here love to rail against TWC as they used to be awful...and due to their built in biases about what it used to be, are unwillingly to accept their  improvements

Yea agree. Just saw a segment and the Met was emphasizing the importance of a 40/70 benchmark track, def more informative than in years past.

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39 minutes ago, NJwx85 said:

To be fair, the dry slotting would be temporary following by several hours of backend snow as the system moves East. 

You can kind of see the possible dry slot here on the 12K NAM.

For areas along I-80 and points North this is going to be a very big snow storm.

namconus_ref_frzn_neus_25.png

Just my 2 cents, I have never seen "signifcant" accumulating snow in a marginal temperature situation where dry slotting has occurred at some point during the storm.  I don't think it is very common to have a dry slot, followed by heavy accumulating snow under any conditions in the immediate NYC metro area?

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3 minutes ago, Dark Star said:

Just my 2 cents, I have never seen "signifcant" accumulating snow in a marginal temperature situation where dry slotting has occurred at some point during the storm.  I don't think it is very common to have a dry slot, followed by heavy accumulating snow under any conditions in the immediate NYC metro area?

I am unqualified to comment here, so please excuse my lack of education, but I seem to vaguely remember that happening here in Somerset County NJ during the big snowstorm in January 1996 - the storm that shut down the state for a few days.  Granted that was an usual storm and I'm sure the temperature profile preceding it was more favorable.

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