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January 2024


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1 hour ago, LibertyBell said:

Tony please list the record low from 1985 for today from JFK. It was the last time they went below zero.

Also, the -8 from EWR isn't too cold, they also hit -8 in other arctic outbreaks during the 80s, including in 1980, 1982 and 1984.

Philly hit -7 or -8 in those arctic outbreaks too.

Jacksonville down to single digits is absolutely amazing!  Did it snow down there?

1. Yes, Jacksonville, FL, had a trace of SN the day before. Their low on 1/21/1985 was an incredible 7, which broke the previous coldest on record low of 10 (set 2/13/1899 during that historic Arctic outbreak and snowfall).

2. Savannah with NO snow had its all-time official record low of 3 on 1/21/1985. That smashed its previous official record of 8 set 2/13/1899, which was just after 2” of SN fell. However, before official records started, downtown hit 0 and downtown Charleston (not the well inland airport, where CHS records are kept) hit 2 during the amazing historic Arctic outbreak of Feb of 1835 on Feb 8th. Jacksonville dropped to 8.

3. Macon, GA, had a low of -6 on 1/21/1985, which followed a T of SN the day before.

4. Atlanta had a low of -8 on 1/21/1985 (which I experienced) after 0.2” of SN fell the day before. That just missed the alltime record of -9, which was set on 2/13/1899 just after ~6.5” of snow fell.

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35 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

it's nice to see so much snowfall even with average temperatures above freezing in that period, Don!  How much snow did we have outside of January and February? We had snow even in April didn't we?

 

Monthly snowfall totals for 1963-64:

November: Trace

December: 11.3"

January: 13.3"

February 14.1"

March: 6.1"

April: Trace

Total: 44.8"

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17 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

Positively epic! I wish we could figure out why NYC never gets below -2 anymore lol.

Is JFK'S all time record low -2? I haven't seen them ever get lower than that.

 

 

Yes(records go back to 55. 

 

 also Feb 8 : -2 (1963) atJFK

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11 minutes ago, donsutherland1 said:

Monthly snowfall totals for 1963-64:

November: Trace

December: 11.3"

January: 13.3"

February 14.1"

March: 6.1"

April: Trace

Total: 44.8"

see the issue were facing now is we’ve essentially lost December snowfall.

 

And we’re banking on blockbuster January, February, and March to make up for it. 

 

So if we had a couple of inches in December, this wouldnt look so bad.

 

Not a good place to start Jan 1…every single year now

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24 minutes ago, GaWx said:

1. Yes, Jacksonville, FL, had a trace of SN the day before. Their low on 1/21/1985 was an incredible 7, which broke the previous coldest on record low of 10 (set 2/13/1899 during that historic Arctic outbreak and snowfall).

2. Savannah with NO snow had its all-time official record low of 3 on 1/21/1985. That smashed its previous official record of 8 set 2/13/1899, which was just after 2” of SN fell. However, before official records started, downtown hit 0 and downtown Charleston (not the well inland airport, where CHS records are kept) hit 2 during the amazing historic Arctic outbreak of Feb of 1835 on Feb 8th. Jacksonville dropped to 8.

3. Macon, GA, had a low of -6 on 1/21/1985, which followed a T of SN the day before.

4. Atlanta had a low of -8 on 1/21/1985 (which I experienced) after 0.2” of SN fell the day before. That just missed the alltime record of -9, which was set on 2/13/1899 just after ~6.5” of snow fell.

wow it's absolutely amazing there are records from 1835! I wonder if we have snowfall records going back that far (for NY as well as for Charleston.)

 

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6 minutes ago, the_other_guy said:

see the issue were facing now is we’ve essentially lost December snowfall.

 

And we’re banking on blockbuster January, February, and March to make up for it. 

 

So if we had a couple of inches in December, this wouldnt look so bad.

 

Not a good place to start Jan 1…every single year now

Yes, that's a huge problem.  Most of our good to very good to great winters started off with a nice December.

Some exceptions, but this was generally true.

 

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37 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

wow it's absolutely amazing there are records from 1835! I wonder if we have snowfall records going back that far (for NY as well as for Charleston.)

 

 I don’t know about NYC, but I have seen accounts (as opposed to official records) of snowfall back that far and even much earlier (back into the 1700s) at both Savannah and Charleston. For example, the heaviest snow at Savannah by far, 18”, occurred late Jan 9 through early Jan 11, 1800! Charleston got 10” and even the GA/NE FL border near St. Mary’s got 5”! I’m almost sure that I didn’t learn about this incredible storm til after 2000. Without the internet, I might still not know about it.@donsutherland1posted about this truly amazing event before and he may have been how I first found out about it. It is in one of David Ludlum’s great US winter wx history books that Don cited. I don’t recall whether @SACRUShas posted about it.

Edit: yes, @SACRUSdid in this post and very likely others:

Edit: Look for David Ludlum’s two fantastic US winter history books at the library. I found them at my local public library. Here’s one you can buy, volume 2:

https://www.amazon.com/American-Winters-1821-1870-History-Weather/dp/0933876246

 

Volume 1:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Early_American_Winters_1604_1820/6iNRAAAAMAAJ?hl=en

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36 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

wow it's absolutely amazing there are records from 1835! I wonder if we have snowfall records going back that far (for NY as well as for Charleston.)

 

Back into the 1700s there are pretty detailed notes available from many E Coast cities and many agricultural areas too. Someone will post something and I end up going down a two hour rabbit hole but never remember to bookmark the sites :rolleyes:

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23 minutes ago, GaWx said:

 I don’t know about NYC, but I have seen accounts (as opposed to official records) of snowfall back that far and even much earlier (back into the 1700s) at both Savannah and Charleston. For example, the heaviest snow at Savannah by far, 18”, occurred late Jan 9 through early Jan 11, 1800! Charleston got 10” and even the GA/NE FL border near St. Mary’s got 5”! I’m almost sure that I didn’t learn about this incredible storm til after 2000. Without the internet, I might still not know about it.@donsutherland1posted about this truly amazing event before and he may have been how I first found out about it. It is in one of David Ludlum’s great US winter wx history books that Don cited. I don’t recall whether @SACRUShas posted about it.

Edit: yes, @SACRUSdid in this post and very likely others:

Edit: Look for David Ludlum’s two fantastic US winter history books at the library. I found them at my local public library. Here’s one you can buy, volume 2:

https://www.amazon.com/American-Winters-1821-1870-History-Weather/dp/0933876246

 

Volume 1:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Early_American_Winters_1604_1820/6iNRAAAAMAAJ?hl=en

I actually ran across the storm while doing some research at the New York Public Library. Ludlum's books are historical weather treasures.

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1 hour ago, LibertyBell said:

Can't the media or someone at all question them and ask them why they're putting down all this salt?  There needs to be some accountability here.

 

The media is one of the reasons they are putting down all of the salt because if they didn't and there was a major accident on an unsalted road the media would make a big deal of it and start the blame game. Same reason the schools close nowadays when a couple of inches is forecasted to fall - everyone covering their rears - wasn't like this years ago plus nowadays bad news travels fast - wasn't like this pre -internet.........in addition everyone has become lawsuit crazy...

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40 minutes ago, GaWx said:

 I don’t know about NYC, but I have seen accounts (as opposed to official records) of snowfall back that far and even much earlier (back into the 1700s) at both Savannah and Charleston. For example, the heaviest snow at Savannah by far, 18”, occurred late Jan 9 through early Jan 11, 1800! Charleston got 10” and even the GA/NE FL border near St. Mary’s got 5”! I’m almost sure that I didn’t learn about this incredible storm til after 2000. Without the internet, I might still not know about it.@donsutherland1posted about this truly amazing event before and he may have been how I first found out about it. It is in one of David Ludlum’s great US winter wx history books that Don cited. I don’t recall whether @SACRUShas posted about it.

Edit: yes, @SACRUSdid in this post and very likely others:

Edit: Look for David Ludlum’s two fantastic US winter history books at the library. I found them at my local public library. Here’s one you can buy, volume 2:

https://www.amazon.com/American-Winters-1821-1870-History-Weather/dp/0933876246

 

Volume 1:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Early_American_Winters_1604_1820/6iNRAAAAMAAJ?hl=en

Thanks, Larry!  What would you say overall was the snowiest winter if you use all available records and accounts going as far back as possible?

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18 minutes ago, donsutherland1 said:

I actually ran across the storm while doing some research at the New York Public Library. Ludlum's books are historical weather treasures.

I see there was a year just before official records being kept when NYC recorded 90" of snow in the 1860s? But even before that I have heard that both NYC and Philly reached 100" of snow, do you have any idea what years this might have happened in, Don?

 

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12 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

Thanks, Larry!  What would you say overall was the snowiest winter if you use all available records and accounts going as far back as possible?

 You’re welcome. If you mean snowiest in the US as a whole, I don’t know. How would that be determined? I imagine it would be subjective. Also, keep in mind the changing US boundaries. And if you wanted to go back before 1776, that would be interesting but of course there was no US yet and the account locations would be more limited the further back one goes.

 If I were you, I’d try to find and/or buy the two Ludlum books, which go back to 1604!

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2 minutes ago, GaWx said:

 You’re welcome. If you mean snowiest in the US as a whole, I don’t know. How would that be determined? I imagine it would be subjective. Also, keep in mind the changing US boundaries. And if you wanted to go back before 1776, that would be interesting but of course there was no US yet and the account locations would be more limited the further back one goes.

 If I were you, I’d try to find and/or buy the two Ludlum books.

Well I'd like to limit it to the east coast in general, east of the Mississippi.

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53 minutes ago, GaWx said:

 I don’t know about NYC, but I have seen accounts (as opposed to official records) of snowfall back that far and even much earlier (back into the 1700s) at both Savannah and Charleston. For example, the heaviest snow at Savannah by far, 18”, occurred late Jan 9 through early Jan 11, 1800! Charleston got 10” and even the GA/NE FL border near St. Mary’s got 5”! I’m almost sure that I didn’t learn about this incredible storm til after 2000. Without the internet, I might still not know about it.@donsutherland1posted about this truly amazing event before and he may have been how I first found out about it. It is in one of David Ludlum’s great US winter wx history books that Don cited. I don’t recall whether @SACRUShas posted about it.

Edit: yes, @SACRUSdid in this post and very likely others:

Edit: Look for David Ludlum’s two fantastic US winter history books at the library. I found them at my local public library. Here’s one you can buy, volume 2:

https://www.amazon.com/American-Winters-1821-1870-History-Weather/dp/0933876246

 

Volume 1:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Early_American_Winters_1604_1820/6iNRAAAAMAAJ?hl=en

 

Some more on that southen extreme cold / snow

 

jan-10-1800-savannah-snow.jpg

 

Clip form :  "Memorial History of Louisville from Its First Settlement to the Year 1896."

https://books.google.com/books?id=l60yAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=savannah+ga+snow+of+1800&source=bl&ots=z7b_pBEjBB&sig=JaApWy9zFpUrjKfWXFTIhlcCjkY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUvpan_rXRAhUD2oMKHfTzAmkQ6AEIVDAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Wouldn't it be nice if we could wake up to the 192 hr EC op. Probably not cause we dont know how the closed low in the lower Miss Valley comes out or goes back to the desert sw, especially with another short wave diving se in the Northern stream toward the upper midwest. Complicated. Dont bet on anything - at least not me except options for a little snow are still on the table per the 12z GEFS ensemble and 00z/21 EC ensemble.

 

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8 minutes ago, wdrag said:

Wouldn't it be nice if we could wake up to the 192 hr EC op. Probably not cause we dont know how the closed low in the lower Miss Valley comes out or goes back to the desert sw, especially with another short wave diving se in the Northern stream toward the upper midwest. Complicated. Dont bet on anything - at least not me except options for a little snow are still on the table per the 12z GEFS ensemble and 00z/21 EC ensemble.

 

12Z GFS show a similar solution and that HP in southeast Canada will be critical - problem is not enough cold air for frozen

gfs_mslp_pcpn_frzn_us_28.png

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22 hours ago, donsutherland1 said:

I agree. The forecast pattern for the end of January is hostile. Solutions such as the 6z GFS for significant snowstorms should be discounted.

The other thing that is hostile is how the trough has a strong positive tilt. That alone supports a well out to sea solution. I see no way that the end of the month becomes a major coastal snowstorm despite what some operational runs may show

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7 minutes ago, NEG NAO said:

12Z GFS show a similar solution and that HP in southeast Canada will be critical - problem is not enough cold air for frozen

gfs_mslp_pcpn_frzn_us_28.png

I agree. Cold air is going to be a big problem as is a whole plethora of other factors

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