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Winter 2023/24 Medium/Long Range Discussion


Chicago Storm
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5 hours ago, beavis1729 said:

Disclaimer: Tenor of the post is as a fellow weenie, separate from you and your colleagues being valued NWS employees...

The issue, as always, is that our expectations are so low. When people resign themselves to the fact that 10 days of winter (regardless of ENSO state or various indices) is acceptable, where does that leave us?  Even if the 10-day stretch is really good (in this case I'd give it a B or B+ since our friends in the city missed out and it had the potential to be even better), would we ever be ok with 10 days of summer?  In summer, people don't care about the indices - it's just summer.  Sure, some patterns can be 70s and humid and others can be 90s and dry, but it still feels like summer either way simply because of the calendar.

Can't chalk it all up to a strong El Nino.  Last year didn't feature that, but the winter was still horrible. It's maddening to have to depend on the perfect alphabet soup of indices to get winter.  Shouldn't the calendar be enough?

Our problem is temps, not precip/snow. A day with a high of 15F in January shouldn't be a big deal.  Sure, it's a bit cold...but nothing crazy.  The problem is that it needs to be offset by another day with a high of 45F, since our average high in Jan is 30F.  The good patterns can be really good, but it's short-lived and everything else is bad.  Would have been nice to follow up the 10-day good pattern with regular winter, like highs 25-30F and lows in the teens with a bit of snowfall.  Nothing crazy, just some basic winter-type stuff.  But it's always way up and way down.  We never get "normal" winter weather here.  It's either a good pattern which you hope produces in a short window...or nothing.

And it's even worse because all of those comments are referencing Jan, the core of winter.  Dec/Feb are even worse, as average monthly highs are higher, around 35F.

The problem with low expectations is that it makes people think they should be ok with 10 days of winter, when DJF is 91 days long. If that's the case, what's the point of being excited about winter?  So maybe we get to celebrate 20-30 days in winter (instead of 10) with other ENSO states?  Ok...I guess that's a small improvement.

Would be nice to look out the window in DJF and not have to worry about melting.  I don't look out the window between mid-June and mid-Sept and worry about it being cold outside. You may have an occasional cool morning...but 98 times out of 100 it will feel like summer in summer. No one is asking for subzero temps and feet of snow continuously; just a nice 6-8 week stretch of temps mainly in the 10s-20s (even a few afternoons in the 30s, as long as the nights are cold) with at least some accumulating snow in the less productive weeks. I guess we pin our hopes on mid-Feb to mid-Mar, even though it will be tough to keep snow on the ground?  If Dec would have been decent, the current stretch would be more tolerable...but winter was nowhere to be found in the month with the shortest daylight and the holidays. Regardless of how the rest of the winter turns out, it's impossible to recover from that.

We finally get the lakes to freeze around here, then it all goes to ****. Nothing is stable or consistent. There should be a 4-6 week period where the lakes are frozen, regardless of indices. Maybe it's even more than 4-6 weeks in the better winters (imagine that!), but the big issue is stability and the feeling of winter. We just don't have it here - it can't be counted on. 

Long text message with extended phone : r/MemeTemplatesOfficial

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2 hours ago, cyclone77 said:

Looks like zero precip for the next 12+ days.  Was a fun stretch but looks very boring going forward.  

were going to need the break for what comes next. Btw...where does your snow total stand for the season?

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Also Beavis Yellowknife is calling, because honestly you have unreasonable expectations for Chicago.

Thank you! Chicago has about 20 90° days a year, how many places in the world can get both 95° temps in July and a yard of snow in the winter? Be thankful you get seasons at all
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That HUGE ridge that try's to torch the middle of the country first week of FEB get's crushed by what looks like a west based -NAO forming.  Kind of weird set up but seems to suppress everything south but no much cold air to work with.  

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We knew there would be a decent break in the pattern, including a thaw.  However, there is absolutely nothing in sight for the north-central US through the next ten days, maybe even mid February.  At least we get mild air over the near term.  After that it looks like we turn colder but remain dry.

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the only major signals I see for Feb are drier than average first half, starting warmer but potential for some cool weather mid month.  I would expect east coast troughing to maintain for the last half of February into the first week or so of March.  Hard to say anything beyond that

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After a very busy few weeks (personally and professionally), I myself enjoyed knowing all week this week that there wasn't a legitimate snow chance for me to look at for the foreseeable future. I love snow but I needed to catch up :lol:. A warm-up after the recent cold snap always seemed likely. The warm-up probably came a few days later than I initially thought and is definitely lasting 1-2 weeks longer than I may have hoped. However, I still think we'll get another decent window of colder weather, likely starting around the middle of February. I do think this upcoming window may favor the eastern U.S. for snow more than parts of the Midwest.

539904923_200VP.png.2afed66f91d46969ff511224296a83d6.png

Tropical forcing has been relatively active and important this season, despite the strong El Nino. Note how passages through the western hemisphere in early-mid November and mid-late December were followed by pattern changes a couple of weeks later. The most recent wave has been especially amplified and slow-moving across the eastern Indian Ocean and western Pacific. This almost certainly contributed to the ongoing milder pattern not just being a quick deal. My guess would be that the combination of the collapsed +Indian Ocean Dipole event (that peaked in the fall), weakening El Nino, and ongoing stratospheric warming event earlier this month all contributed to such amplified tropical forcing in these areas. 

obs_phase40_full.gif.e049698ec424a22958aa0d1876b2b62d.gif

426328156_MJO5-6-7.thumb.png.307db1cfff4cb9430cbd2d12877533c7.png

The pattern over the last week and over the next several days definitely has some resemblance to the MJO 5-6-7 composites for mid-late January. The question is, do we get continued propagation through phases 7-8-1? The dynamical models are a mess, the statistical models say yes:

statphase_full.gif.21b9779e2641b4635676afc7f3f64c7a.gif

1350977279_ECMF(2).png.e835bfbc48d65a58e193fc3bdcd4b140.png

NCFS.png.dc91074ab65876efa1d08730465d83c6.png

The dynamic models (EPS and CFS the last two images) suggest a very odd/confused signal over the next 10 or so days, followed by what could be a more coherent eastward propagation towards mid-February. The statistical models have a more consistent eastward propagation over the next two weeks. Looking at the actual velocity potential anomaly forecasts from the CFS and EPS:

1706443200-AjPm7jzIvig.thumb.png.476aa65df291cbd4ea2235f4b6330c12.png

2032284173_chi200_cfs.eqtr(5).thumb.png.f7ca9276972b388b97d47c5df3a4bb62.png

They suggest continued propagation through the first week of February, with forcing persisting thereafter over the western hemisphere. I would consider tropical forcing to generally be supportive of a transition back to a colder pattern, as it seems like one way or another, most guidance suggests we should see it become more focused over the western hemisphere in February. That supports a +PNA/-NAO. However, I would also consider tropical forcing to be a source of uncertainty as the models seem to be trying to sort out a complex evolution over the next couple of weeks. If we can get the phase 8-1 response the mild weather would not last forever:

689912043_MJO8-1.thumb.png.0373b086d1bf647d663d0051d9bea26f.png

 

I would say the recent and ongoing positive East Asian Mountain Torque isn't necessarily the cause of the ongoing +EPO (I believe the tropical forcing is the cause), but the increased storminess the extended Pacific jet has caused is flooding Pacific air into the northern US and Canada. As the east Asian Mountain torque turns negative over the next week the PNA will briefly trend more negative. However, by mid-February the East Asian Mountain Torque is shown to trend more positive, so any -PNA trend won't last long. With more favorable tropical forcing that should increase blocking along the west coast and into Alaska:

26199140_eps_mslpa_global_fh-72-360(4).thumb.gif.f1e8c124ea8dec5e1acdd0b81972a5ec.gif

 

To me, it seems like there's a decent shot that by mid-February we see a more positive PNA and eventually more negative NAO due to the evolution of the mountain torque and tropical forcing. At the same time, our recent SSW event would be due to down well into the troposphere during the second half of February. So if we will see a prolonged period of tropospheric blocking it would begin during the second half of February.

2077634185_GFSStratForecast.png.f0262896ed2f5039aa3bcb05a1402e16.png

In short, more cold weather should be coming mid to late February. The pattern may end up being more favorable for the East Coast than Midwest overall, but there should be a period of relatively increased snow potential after the ongoing slow stretch. 

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Fantastic analysis as always @OHweather.

I never DONT want snow in winter, but since reality has been for a while that the first half of Feb will mostly suck, Im actually not mad about getting some zzz's. After tomorrows burst of snow it looks to dry out for a while after what will be our wettest January on record (snowfall above avg too, but not top 20 territory). 

By about Feb 10th, I hope to be feasting on some model eye candy and would love to do a repeat of what we saw from Jan 11-24 or so.

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38 minutes ago, DocATL said:


Minneapolis working towards a record for lowest snowfall.


.

We’ve got a long way to go. It can snow here into May, and April 2018 saw over 25” of snow, but the trends this winter are undeniable. I’m more concerned if we don’t see any precip versus it falling as snow. Don’t want a 4th straight summer of drought and smoke. 

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