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2023-2024 Winter/ENSO Disco


40/70 Benchmark
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I hate to be that guy, but isn’t the super nino + strong -NAO combo not that good for us? I would be concerned about the mid Atlantic cashing in more than us in that pattern. 

That is actually the biggest reason why I am so pessimistic about this winter. Even if the forcing is somewhat favorable and I am wrong about the NAO, the “good” analogs (1957-1958, 2009-2010, 2015-2016) do not impress me at all. I would take 2017-2018 or 2021-2022 over any of those winters. I haven’t checked the exact numbers, but I would bet March 2018 or Jan 2022 alone were snowier than the entire 2009-2010 winter here, and possibly 2015-2016 as well.

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4 hours ago, George001 said:

I hate to be that guy, but isn’t the super nino + strong -NAO combo not that good for us? I would be concerned about the mid Atlantic cashing in more than us in that pattern. 

That is actually the biggest reason why I am so pessimistic about this winter. Even if the forcing is somewhat favorable and I am wrong about the NAO, the “good” analogs (1957-1958, 2009-2010, 2015-2016) do not impress me at all. I would take 2017-2018 or 2021-2022 over any of those winters. I haven’t checked the exact numbers, but I would bet March 2018 or Jan 2022 alone were snowier than the entire 2009-2010 winter here, and possibly 2015-2016 as well.

2002-2003 and 1986-1987 were fine....as was 1965-1966.

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1 hour ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Very good...one of the best ever...like top 10.

Now that would be an analog worth getting excited about. Below normal temps, above normal snow with a historic blizzard in February. Unfortunately, the moderate 1.3 ONI peak and modoki structure doesn’t look like a great match for the 2023-2024 winter. A good estimate right now is 2.1-2.3 ONI (super). The 65-66 nino was a super nino like this one will be, so that may be a better analog. 

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7 hours ago, George001 said:

Now that would be an analog worth getting excited about. Below normal temps, above normal snow with a historic blizzard in February. Unfortunately, the moderate 1.3 ONI peak and modoki structure doesn’t look like a great match for the 2023-2024 winter. A good estimate right now is 2.1-2.3 ONI (super). The 65-66 nino was a super nino like this one will be, so that may be a better analog. 

The MEI and RONI are...remember you made the point about how strongly last year's la nina acted, despite the modest ONI? Take a look at the MEI. I'm also not sure the forcing will not be modoki like due to how warm the western Pacific and Nino 4 are.

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3 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

The MEI and RONI are...remember you made the point about how strongly last year's la nina acted, despite the modest ONI? Take a look at the MEI. I'm also not sure the forcing will not be modoki like due to how warm the western Pacific and Nino 4 are.

Yes, but I’m expecting the MEI index to peak around +2 (super) as well.

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2 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

I'm talking about at extended leads....anything less than a record -PDO would have been fine last year.

He’s talking about the big  -PNA(which you call RNA), you’re talking about the -PDO…obviously two different things, but you’re saying the -PDO ruined things too?  
 

See I was under the impression that the incredibly -PNA was what hurt us the most. But you’re thinking the  -PDO hurt us as well? 

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3 minutes ago, WinterWolf said:

He’s talking about the big  -PNA(which you call RNA), you’re talking about the -PDO…obviously two different things, but you’re saying the -PDO ruined things too?  
 

See I was under the impression that the incredibly -PNA was what hurt us the most. But you’re thinking the  -PDO hurt us as well? 

They are both related...the PNA on paper wasn't near record because of the fraud east-based PNA during January, but it essentially acted like on in the seasonal mean.

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1 hour ago, George001 said:

Yes, but I’m expecting the MEI index to peak around +2 (super) as well.

Really??? Based on what? Its at 0.3 as of JJ 2023...care to cite an example of it recovering 1.7 between July and winter during a developing el nino? From what I am looking at, it usually rises about .4-.5. I am willing to say maybe 1.5, tops...but don't see 2.0.

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1982, 1991 and 2009 rose .8 from JJ...largest I can find. That would place us at 1.1 as a winter MEI peak. Like I said...I am willing to assume a record recovery and say 1.5 to be safe.

I am talking developing el nino....you find greater recoveries in decaying cold ENSO events, sure.

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8 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

Maybe I dunno. We seemed to have a lot of that fold over -PNA troughs that were oriented in such a fashion to absolutely pork us too. 

That is more bad luck, IMO....I will say that maybe myself, along with others should have factored that in and erred more conservatively as the season progressed, but then you're bordering on persistence forecasting.

And by "fine", I mean not historically bad...serviceable...which is all I forecasted last year, despite what snowman19 said.

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3 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

That is more bad luck, IMO....I will say that maybe myself, along with others should have factored that in and erred more conservatively as the season progressed, but then you're bordering on persistence forecasting.

Yeah that is more due to smaller scale nuances vs a -PDO.  That's all I meant. 

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21 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

Yeah that is more due to smaller scale nuances vs a -PDO.  That's all I meant. 

But those are the type of "smaller scale nuances" that a record -PDO leaves you more prone to. That is like saying, "it didn't cut because of the +NAO, it cut because the trough went negative over the Mississippi River".

If we had a run-of-the-mill -PDO, some of those would have worked out.

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