Winter Banter Thread

[bluewave]

25 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

This seems to be the case with every large corporation in every industry, they always cover up anything that will curtail their profits.  It's the definition of corporate psychopathy

 

Any entity that gains unchecked power whether government or corporate is doing harm. I have always been for the underdog. 

[LibertyBell]

Just now, bluewave said:

Any entity that gains unchecked power whether government or corporate is doing harm. I have always been for the underdog. The system can often be unkind and harsh. More power to the people.

I hunted down an article by the same author you quoted, and this one really sums up my thinking and has for the past 30 years

https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2018/03/09/591906007/getting-climate-change-right-in-light-of-the-stars

Of course we triggered climate change. We've been using planetary-scale amounts of energy to build and maintain this amazing planetary-scale project of civilization. Of course the Earth noticed. What else did you expect to happen? Imagine that aliens, with our knowledge of climate, landed on Earth in ancient Rome. They could have looked around and predicted: "Yeah, you guys are gonna trigger climate change in a few thousand years."

In fact, aliens make an important part of this story. Given what we now know about climate, we can see that any large-scale technological civilization developing on any planet would likely trigger its own version of climate change. What is an industrial civilization but a means for converting vast amounts of energy into useful work? The laws of climate literally demand that so much energy use has to transform into planetary feedbacks.

So, yeah, we're a wildly successful species that's built a wildly successful planetary civilization. That changed the climate. Duh. What else did we expect to happen?

But are we smart enough, and successful enough, to see this truth and deal with it effectively?

Given the 10 billion trillion potentially habitable planets in the universe, we are likely not the first time a civilization has appeared and faced the climate change it created. In some cases, that climate change may have become an existential threat to the civilization's existence (as it may become for humanity). So, in the end, the most important question of all may be one we have yet to even fully imagine.

Are we to join the universe's winners who met their climate challenge and moved forward — or will we fade away with the cosmic losers too stubborn to see the truth before their eyes?

[bluewave]

8 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

hunted down an article by the same author you quoted, and this one really sums up my thinking and has for the past 30 years

Wonder what percentage makes to type 1-3?

 

 

 

[rclab]

10 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Wonder what percentage makes to type 1-3?

 

 

 

Good afternoon BW and thank you for the video. Easy to grasp and nicely organized, verbally. As to your question …. I would fear the results if Don’s sensitivity analysis was applied to it. Stay well, as always …..

[bluewave]

1 minute ago, rclab said:

Good afternoon BW and thank you for the video. Easy to grasp and nicely organized, verbally. As to your question …. I would fear the results if Don’s sensitivity analysis was applied to it. Stay well, as always …..

Good question. 

[LibertyBell]

23 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Wonder what percentage makes to type 1-3?

 

 

 

based on what we've found / not found, probably less than one in a million, maybe even less than one in a billion.

 

[matt8204]

1 hour ago, bluewave said:

Any entity that gains unchecked power whether government or corporate is doing harm. I have always been for the underdog. 

Agreed.  They inevitably become corrupt and start to exploit people who have no choice but to bend to their will.  

[forkyfork]

57 minutes ago, matt8204 said:

Agreed.  They inevitably become corrupt and start to exploit people who have no choice but to bend to their will.  

most people are stupid and need to be controlled by the government 

[North and West]

most people are stupid and need to be controlled by the government 

.

[rclab]

1 hour ago, forkyfork said:

most people are stupid and need to be controlled by the government 

Good evening forky. “Stupid is as stupid does” (or says) stay well, as always …..

[bluewave]

4 hours ago, matt8204 said:

Agreed.  They inevitably become corrupt and start to exploit people who have no choice but to bend to their will.  

Also too much groupthink denies the uniqueness of the individual in bigger organizations. One size fits all policy approaches leave many good folks behind. Especially people with various challenges or disabilities. We need much better support systems for people in these groups.  

[LibertyBell]

14 hours ago, North and West said:

.

He's not completely wrong though--- the only way to prevent companies from destroying the environment is to bring the mighty fist of government regulations down upon them.

Here's what most don't understand.... humanity is part of the environment, so when we damage it we damage ourselves.  The horrible things that companies like Monsanto, Dow, DuPont, Bayer, etc did aren't just crimes against the planet, they are crimes against humanity and should be punished mightily for it-- it all comes down to lawsuits and crippling them financially, but I'd also love to see severe criminal prosecution of these companies and if corporations are to be treated like people, let's put the death penalty for corporations on the table, because they fully deserve it.

 

On another topic, lithium and cobalt mining is not just about the environment, but about the horrific conditions of labor (really slave labor, much like the palm oil cartels in Indonesia and Malaysia) and on top of that lithium and cobalt are most EXTREMELY flammable.  We're now seeing the start of severe restrictions on lithium batteries in NYC, and there need to be, because a large percentage of dangerous fires in NYC are started by lithium batteries.  I avoid them like the plague, much preferring NiMH technology instead.  Lithium is going to be replaced by solid state and green hydrogen, which are both MUCH better and much more environmentally friendly and less dangerous too.  Green hydrogen has already been used in the first airplane flight a few weeks ago and it will find its way into vehicles in the next few years.  One of the science groups I converse in is very excited about it.

[LibertyBell]

15 hours ago, forkyfork said:

most people are stupid and need to be controlled by the government 

100% concur

99% of people are stupid and need to be controlled....and that includes corporations.

"average" people are stupid too, but are more dangerous because they can do much more harm than a below average person.

But the government is corrupt too and needs to be controlled also-- I'd say by AI, since AI is best equipped to make rational scientific decisions than any human on this planet ever could.

Freedom should not include the right to be ignorant, stupid or corrupt.

 

[coastalplainsnowman]

10 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

100% concur

99% of people are stupid and need to be controlled....and that includes corporations.

"average" people are stupid too, but are more dangerous because they can do much more harm than a below average person.

But the government is corrupt too and needs to be controlled also-- I'd say by AI, since AI is best equipped to make rational scientific decisions than any human on this planet ever could.

Freedom should not include the right to be ignorant, stupid or corrupt.

 

Wow.  

I have about a hundred problems with the above, but I'll just say this:  History says that when governments take the sort of control that you are wishing for here, the very first people who lose their, uh, rights, are the academics, the professors, i.e. not the people you guys would consider 'stupid.'  And history says that those very same rounded up people were the ones wishing, right up to the moment they were rounded up,  'Oh, if only we had a strong government to control these stupid masses.'   

[North and West]

100% concur
99% of people are stupid and need to be controlled....and that includes corporations.
"average" people are stupid too, but are more dangerous because they can do much more harm than a below average person.
But the government is corrupt too and needs to be controlled also-- I'd say by AI, since AI is best equipped to make rational scientific decisions than any human on this planet ever could.
Freedom should not include the right to be ignorant, stupid or corrupt.
 

You guys are a lot smarter than me in regards to weather and climate, but the desire to control people never works out.

Imagine yourself in a personal or professional relationship and your partner or manager lets you know how stupid you are and that you need to be controlled because you’re just too inept and incompetent for your own good. Do you think, “Thank goodness a luminary light has allowed me to see my sheer, unending stupidity!”

I doubt it. This never ends well whether personally or professionally or politically.


.

[Nibor]

11 minutes ago, North and West said:

You guys are a lot smarter than me in regards to weather and climate, but the desire to control people never works out.

Imagine yourself in a personal or professional relationship and your partner or manager lets you know how stupid you are and that you need to be controlled because you’re just too inept and incompetent for your own good. Do you think, “Thank goodness a luminary light has allowed me to see my sheer, unending stupidity!”

I doubt it. This never ends well whether personally or professionally or politically.


.

You’re controlled everyday you just don’t realize it because you’re used to it. 

[LibertyBell]

30 minutes ago, North and West said:

You guys are a lot smarter than me in regards to weather and climate, but the desire to control people never works out.

Imagine yourself in a personal or professional relationship and your partner or manager lets you know how stupid you are and that you need to be controlled because you’re just too inept and incompetent for your own good. Do you think, “Thank goodness a luminary light has allowed me to see my sheer, unending stupidity!”

I doubt it. This never ends well whether personally or professionally or politically.


.

We're kind of joking around (at least I am lol).....but the real problem is eventually the "controller" even if they start out with good intentions also has the ability to do horrible things (remember J Edgar Hoover, FBI, etc.)  That's why the only acceptable entity doing the controlling would be AI that would self evolve based on altruism, and I'm not even sure that's possible.

 

Punishing corporations for their misdeeds (which current government doesn't properly do because they've been infiltrated by them and their lobbyists) and establishing benefit corporations that seek to preserve the environment and better society, is a real and realizable goal though....it should be done.

 

[LibertyBell]

18 minutes ago, Nibor said:

You’re controlled everyday you just don’t realize it because you’re used to it. 

Yes the key to maintaining it is not realizing it.

We get bombarded with so many ads every day and targeted advertizing and then there's the issue of mass surveillance (both by government and by companies.)

 

[LibertyBell]

43 minutes ago, coastalplainsnowman said:

Wow.  

I have about a hundred problems with the above, but I'll just say this:  History says that when governments take the sort of control that you are wishing for here, the very first people who lose their, uh, rights, are the academics, the professors, i.e. not the people you guys would consider 'stupid.'  And history says that those very same rounded up people were the ones wishing, right up to the moment they were rounded up,  'Oh, if only we had a strong government to control these stupid masses.'   

Yes see the other post I made after that one, I have problems with it because no human is truly free of corruption, even if it's only corruption of thought, if given the power of control....that corrupt thought can easily turn into corrupt action.  That's why I also added that government itself needs to be controlled....and the only way I see that being properly done is by AI, but altruistic science based AI, I'm not sure if the level of complexity we need and making altruism part of the self evolution process is entirely possible.  As something gets more complex and more advanced, I intuitively believe that it becomes less altruistic and more ego driven (even AI).  You end up with the Russian Doll (Matroshka) Effect....you always need to find a way to control the controller....talk about recursive function hell lol.

I would always choose government over corporations because of the horrible things corporations have done ever since the first multinational corporations started up (the British and Dutch East India Companies), but I would choose academics over both.  Unfortunately academics don't like being policy makers.

 

[North and West]

You’re controlled everyday you just don’t realize it because you’re used to it. 

.

[Dark Star]

12 hours ago, bluewave said:

Also too much groupthink denies the uniqueness of the individual in bigger organizations. One size fits all policy approaches leave many good folks behind. Especially people with various challenges or disabilities. We need much better support systems for people in these groups.  

UNFORTUNATELY, too many able bodied people take advantage of the well intentioned programs set up for those who are truly challenged, handicapped or disabled.

Perhaps there never will be a Shangri La, given our human limitiations.  Evil is always lurking, always looking to exploit others, and must be constantly pursued and conquered.  Freedom is never free...

[LibertyBell]

25 minutes ago, Dark Star said:

UNFORTUNATELY, too many able bodied people take advantage of the well intentioned programs set up for those who are truly challenged, handicapped or disabled.

Perhaps there never will be a Shangri La, given our human limitiations.  Evil is always lurking, always looking to exploit others, and must be constantly pursued and conquered.  Freedom is never free...

AI = Shangri La?

Only if it's AGI though and it's currently unknown if that's even possible.

Look it up though, if AGI were possible, it opens up a whole new universe of possibilities.

[bluewave]

25 minutes ago, Dark Star said:

UNFORTUNATELY, too many able bodied people take advantage of the well intentioned programs set up for those who are truly challenged, handicapped or disabled.

Perhaps there never will be a Shangri La, given our human limitiations.  Evil is always lurking, always looking to exploit others, and must be constantly pursued and conquered.  Freedom is never free...

The programs themselves aren’t well intentioned since they don’t pay enough for survival without family help. Plus spots in the programs only have enough openings for a small fraction of the people who need them. You would probably have to go to a small Scandinavian country with much smaller population to get better assistance for people in need. But even in some of those countries the programs aren’t enough. Just too many people in need here chasing too few resources.

[LibertyBell]

1 minute ago, bluewave said:

The programs themselves aren’t well intentioned since they don’t pay enough for survival without family help. Plus spots in the programs only have enough openings for a small fraction of the people who need them. You would probably have to go to a small Scandinavian country with much smaller population to get better assistance for people in need. But even in some of those countries the programs aren’t enough. Just too many people in need here chasing too few resources.

Those Scandanavian nations are amazing and ranked at the top of all nations on most metrics.  The US should be treated as 50 different nations rather than just 1 nation and we have many Nordic style programs in NY and other NE states.

 

 

[bluewave]

4 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

Those Scandanavian nations are amazing and ranked at the top of all nations on most metrics.  The US should be treated as 50 different nations rather than just 1 nation and we have many Nordic style programs in NY and other NE states.

 

 

It’s much easier with the small populations they have there. Each country only has about 5-10 million people.

[LibertyBell]

3 minutes ago, bluewave said:

It’s much easier with the small populations they have there. Each country only has about 5-10 million people.

I think thats how all nations to be, this nation is too big for its own good....most large nations eventually break up into smaller parts, because they are more manageable and easier to run.

[bluewave]

9 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

I think thats how all nations to be, this nation is too big for its own good....most large nations eventually break up into smaller parts, because they are more manageable and easier to run.

Each state is pretty much like it’s own country to some extent. But look at all the problems California is having with lack of housing. Appalachia is similar with extreme poverty but it’s more out of sight and not on the news every day.

[Dark Star]

8 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

I think thats how all nations to be, this nation is too big for its own good....most large nations eventually break up into smaller parts, because they are more manageable and easier to run.

Don't worry, liberalism will destroy this country, as have many large civilizations before it...

[LibertyBell]

1 minute ago, Dark Star said:

Don't worry, liberalism will destroy this country, as have many large civilizations before it...

This country spends/wastes WAYYYY too much money on the military industrial complex....if it didn't do that we could have the same social programs that other nations have.

Notice how quickly they dole out billions for other nations and never do it for people who live right here.

 

[Dark Star]

20 minutes ago, bluewave said:

The programs themselves aren’t well intentioned since they don’t pay enough for survival without family help. Plus spots in the programs only have enough openings for a small fraction of the people who need them. You would probably have to go to a small Scandinavian country with much smaller population to get better assistance for people in need. But even in some of those countries the programs aren’t enough. Just too many people in need here chasing too few resources.

That's my point, because of people trying to take advantage of these programs, the people who really deserve the help do not get enough. Everybody would have to act "perfect" in order to have a better socieity. Some of us understand that.  Eternal vigilence!