TD 9/Ian Banter

[sojitodd]

On 9/28/2022 at 9:49 AM, tiger_deF said:

So not only is the pier gone, but the building where all of these cams(there were several) were located is completely gone as well-as in just not there.

[Bubbler86]

5 hours ago, Normandy said:

Florida either needs to implement policy changes and building codes that prohibit construction in surge zones, or they will have an insurance crisis.  These storms are not going away and are getting more frequent.  Time to stop putting our heads in the sand.

That and zones where there is no insurance and no government help.  If you live here, you are 100% self insurance. 

[LibertyBell]

9 hours ago, Bubbler86 said:

That and zones where there is no insurance and no government help.  If you live here, you are 100% self insurance. 

The rich can live there and afford to build their own homes with hurricane resistant coding.

 

[Bubbler86]

1 hour ago, LibertyBell said:

The rich can live there and afford to build their own homes with hurricane resistant coding.

 

...and self insure or pay a couple grand per month in insurance. 

[LibertyBell]

37 minutes ago, Bubbler86 said:

...and self insure or pay a couple grand per month in insurance. 

Yes that's entirely on them.  And when these storms come and they need to evacuate-- they're on their own.  If they stay behind they're responsible for whatever happens too.

 

[bigtenfan]

The thing is that Florida actually has some of the best and strongest building codes in the country at least since 2005 and to a lesser extent since 1992. My own house here in Boca is built  to withstand 155MPH winds and a recent garage door replacement is rated at 235mph winds. You will never see wood frame new  construction  in Florida. Everything is reinforced concrete and cinder block.

 

Personally I think that an issue that needs to be addressed is how the GFS and equally important the hurricane models that are based off of it was totally taken to school by not only the Euro but the UK model as well. This is not the first time that this has happened yet the NHC continues to weigh their forecast to what the GFS says.

[Normandy]

Could not agree more.  Their aversion to extreme track changes between advisories and reliance on the GFS rendered their performance in this storm fairly poor for their standards

[jbcmh81]

My mom's place in Ft. Myers. They are somewhat lucky.  No flooding there and they didn't have major structural damage despite the appearance.  But the retirement complex they live in is trashed and many people lost everything.

 

[Hoosier]

Florida man

 

Central Florida man dies after going outside to drain his pool during Ian

Deputies said the man was using a hose to drain the pool down a hill and into a 30-foot-wide canal.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/weather/hurricane/hurricane-ian-tropical-storm-man-dies/77-0dce9684-5c9c-4e44-bd87-4c570763d6dd

[MJO812]

[NYC10023]

On 9/28/2022 at 10:07 AM, JP11283 said:

I can’t believe people are actually swimming on Fort Myers Beach. Never mind, yes I can.

 

wonder how they fared

[floridapirate]

The discussion needs to focus on the forecast, which was marginal at best.  Only 24 hours before was the storm 1) forecasted to come ashore south of Tampa and 2) 1 forecast model called for the storm to track basically along I-4.  And that model was an inhouse model from the Orlando NBC affiliate.  My son in Tampa was planned to evacuate to a friend's house near Naples and decided to ride it out and glad he did. Had he evacuated on Monday to Naples, he would have put himself in the bullseye. Blaming politicians of any party for not evacuating Ft Myers earlier is absurd when Monday & Tuesday's forecast had Tampa in the bullseye

[Hoosier]

I'm flabbergasted that people would evacuate down the coast for a hurricane.  I've heard a lot of stories like that.  Whatever happened to going farther inland?

It's one thing if you're evacuating to Mobile, AL for this, but the Fort Myers/Naples area were in the zone where there was a reasonable chance of very bad conditions from days out.

[floridapirate]

 

 

1 hour ago, Hoosier said:

I'm flabbergasted that people would evacuate down the coast for a hurricane.  I've heard a lot of stories like that.  Whatever happened to going farther inland?

It's one thing if you're evacuating to Mobile, AL for this, but the Fort Myers/Naples area were in the zone where there was a reasonable chance of very bad conditions from days out.

This map was posted on 25 Sep, 48 hours before the storm (pulled from the Ian thread).  South and east was the way to evacuate, Tampa is on the southern edge of the cone.  Ft Myers/Naples isnt even the cone at this point.  Forecasting was poor on this one.

[Hoosier]

The forecast wasn't the greatest, but I just can't feel that bad for people who evacuated to the Ft Myers/Naples area.  For heavens sake, go inland.  The cone is not some magical boundary that a storm cannot possibly track outside of.  

[gymengineer]

34 minutes ago, floridapirate said:

 

 

This map was posted on 25 Sep, 48 hours before the storm (pulled from the Ian thread).  South and east was the way to evacuate, Tampa is on the southern edge of the cone.  Ft Myers/Naples isnt even the cone at this point.  Forecasting was poor on this one.

That’s why the NHC keeps on telling users not to focus on the center path which will shift around, and that hazards can extend well outside of the cone. The NHC explicitly started predicting a 4-7’ storm surge for Lee County starting at 11 pm on Sunday, 9/25. That prediction never went lower on subsequent advisories. You’re not going to convince many on a weather board that Lee County officials did not have enough information to order evacuations sooner. 

[NYC10023]

33 minutes ago, floridapirate said:

 

 

This map was posted on 25 Sep, 48 hours before the storm (pulled from the Ian thread).  South and east was the way to evacuate, Tampa is on the southern edge of the cone.  Ft Myers/Naples isnt even the cone at this point.  Forecasting was poor on this one.

Sorry but where is that map from?

each NHC arum varied a bit, but swfl was never out of the cone. 
In all the years I lived in Florida, especially knowing how hurricanes can change path at the last minute, I would NEVER have thought of going south on the same coast it was forecast to hit

[Floydbuster]

On 10/1/2022 at 11:28 AM, Normandy said:

Could not agree more.  Their aversion to extreme track changes between advisories and reliance on the GFS rendered their performance in this storm fairly poor for their standards

Agree. I saw this starting to happen in the Caribbean when the GFS was organizing Ian way too fast, while it seemed to be getting stronger more at the pace of the EURO. Not to mention nearly everytime I follow the GFS on something, the EURO ends up correct.

 

[floridapirate]

1 hour ago, NYC10023 said:

Sorry but where is that map from?

each NHC arum varied a bit, but swfl was never out of the cone. 
In all the years I lived in Florida, especially knowing how hurricanes can change path at the last minute, I would NEVER have thought of going south on the same coast it was forecast to hit

I grabbed this from the Ian discussion page.  Point is, Ft Myers and Naples was "safe", not center of the storm

[jacindc]

 
 
This map was posted on 25 Sep, 48 hours before the storm (pulled from the Ian thread).  South and east was the way to evacuate, Tampa is on the southern edge of the cone.  Ft Myers/Naples isnt even the cone at this point.  Forecasting was poor on this one.

I'm sure that some graphic artists could come up with a way to shade around the cone to show the potential breadth of impacts. (Which would then perhaps have shown more clearly a larger impact to the southeast of a land falling hurricane.) I know they do more now with surge forecasts, etc., and they repeat "don't focus just on the cone," but it's pretty clear that that's not good enough. They need a one-glance representation of potential level of impacts based on possible forecast deviations.

(And no, not with a Sharpie!)

[NYC10023]

13 hours ago, floridapirate said:

I grabbed this from the Ian discussion page.  Point is, Ft Myers and Naples was "safe", not center of the storm

The map doesn’t show the “center of the storm”

it shows where landfall is possible and Ft Myers is very much in that area

[floridapirate]

 

This is another model posted 26 Sep on the Ian thread by a professional met (Board Member).  Monday afternoon prior to the storm starting in 48 hours and Ft Myers/Naples is relatively safe.  If you were a resident and asked to evacuate, you probably would look at this and decide to stay.  In addition, look at the actual result of onshore at Ft Myers, off shore at Cape Canaveral and consider how far off the models were.

 

[cptcatz]

13 hours ago, jacindc said:

I'm sure that some graphic artists could come up with a way to shade around the cone to show the potential breadth of impacts. (Which would then perhaps have shown more clearly a larger impact to the southeast of a land falling hurricane.) I know they do more now with surge forecasts, etc., and they repeat "don't focus just on the cone," but it's pretty clear that that's not good enough. They need a one-glance representation of potential level of impacts based on possible forecast deviations.

(And no, not with a Sharpie!)

NHC puts out the wind probability maps which is the type of graphic they should be using for the entire storm. Move away from the cone and stick with a color coded graphic like this but for all impacts, not just wind. 

[NYC10023]

5 hours ago, cptcatz said:

NHC puts out the wind probability maps which is the type of graphic they should be using for the entire storm. Move away from the cone and stick with a color coded graphic like this but for all impacts, not just wind. 

IMO this would be much better than what is currently used

[bigtenfan]

That map is for tropical storm winds and depending on the exact detail shows the landfall area at a 50 to 80 percent chance of TS winds

I am sure that the 50 and 64 kt wind maps showed even a lesser chance 

I am sure that map was based on the GFS which failed miserably in this storm at the cost of many many lives 

[cptcatz]

1 hour ago, bigtenfan said:

That map is for tropical storm winds and depending on the exact detail shows the landfall area at a 50 to 80 percent chance of TS winds

I am sure that the 50 and 64 kt wind maps showed even a lesser chance 

I am sure that map was based on the GFS which failed miserably in this storm at the cost of many many lives 

I'm saying that the NHC should replace the cone graphic with a SIMILAR graphic to this one which shows the probability of significant impacts (whether it be wind, rain, or storm surge) based on colors. And it doesn't have to be uniform. It can be skewed to show the heavy surge impacts on the south side of the system and heavy rain impacts on the north side like Ian had. But one graphic showing likelihood of impacts would be far more useful than a cone showing where the center might go. 

[Hoosier]

19 minutes ago, cptcatz said:

I'm saying that the NHC should replace the cone graphic with a SIMILAR graphic to this one which shows the probability of significant impacts (whether it be wind, rain, or storm surge) based on colors. And it doesn't have to be uniform. It can be skewed to show the heavy surge impacts on the south side of the system and heavy rain impacts on the north side like Ian had. But one graphic showing likelihood of impacts would be far more useful than a cone showing where the center might go. 

You may be right about it being better than a cone, but I think going to something probability based could cause its own issues.  Take your basic 30% chance of rain forecast.  Most ordinary people couldn't even tell you what that means.

[Floydbuster]

Another big bust with nearly every model was the awful intensity forecast. Even the ones further south never showed anything like a sub-940 mb hurricane with 155 mph winds. These models made it seem like conditions would be so god awful that the best Ian would do is 125-130 mph. 

[Windspeed]

Another big bust with nearly every model was the awful intensity forecast. Even the ones further south never showed anything like a sub-940 mb hurricane with 155 mph winds. These models made it seem like conditions would be so god awful that the best Ian would do is 125-130 mph. 

Trough interaction is still very difficult to forecast and model. That being said, there were some strong TC model runs. But overall, it's still a science that still cannot be considered a mature discipline. Much research is still in its infancy.

[hawkeye_wx]

Looking at the west models, the point they really went wrong is Cuba.  They had Ian continuing nnw across Cuba and even for a while in the gulf.  Instead, Ian turned east of north as soon as it hit Cuba and it never stopped moving nne from there.  I wonder why models could not see that turn.