NNE Cold Season Thread 2022/2023

[J.Spin]

Since Winter Storm Diaz dropped another good shot of snow overnight, our plan yesterday was to head up to Bolton for more lift-served skiing.  Making a final check on the snow report before heading up though, I discovered that the resort had lost power like a lot of other spots around the area.  With that news, and the announcement that the Wilderness Uphill Route was open, we switched our plans over to ski touring at Wilderness.  When we got to the resort, power was back on and the lifts were running, but since we’d already taken the time to gear up for it, we stuck with the ski touring plan since it held the potential for a lot more untracked snow anyway.

With the existing base snow from ahead of the storm not entirely consolidated, it was tough to get a sense for how much new snow the resort had picked up specifically from this cycle.  But, we were able to get total snowpack depths, and with repeated measurements from multiple people we came in with total settled depths of 16” at 2,000’ and 20” around 3,000’  The resort updated their storm accumulations and reported 12” new at 2,000’ and 16” new at 3,000’, so that fit perfectly with what our measurements were suggesting.

The skin track  Wilderness Uphill Route was nicely set from previous traffic, and there were actually two tracks that let us skin side-by-side for easier conversation.  Traffic on Lower Turnpike had been moderate, and we counted about 20 descent tracks.  I wasn’t sure if we were going to go all the way to the Wilderness Summit depending on how scoured the upper elevations were, but with a lot of the flow with this event coming from the east, there was essentially zero drifting even at the highest elevations, so that set up some potentially great skiing on the upper slopes.

The snow from this storm cycle certain fell right-side-up, and there was a lot of substance to the lower layers, but it skied DEEP.  We quickly discovered that even on 115 mm fat skis, low and moderate angle pitches just didn’t cut it.  You had to hit black diamond pitches or higher, and once you did, the powder skiing really rocked.  We hit the steepest pitches we could find, like the upper slopes of Peggy Dow’s and the Cougar Headwall, and even when we tried to test the limits of the snowpack by attempting to get down to the ground on turns, you just couldn’t.  We picked up about 1.30” of liquid equivalent from this storm down at our site in the valley, so the mountain must have had at least 1.50” of liquid atop the previous base.  I’m not quite sure how this storm brought the slopes to an almost midwinter feel in terms of substance and coverage, but the combination of liquid equivalent, right-side-up snow, and whatever existing base there was, just hit the sweet spot to make that happen.

When we were about halfway through our first descent and only had moderate and lower angle terrain below us, I suggested we stop the descent there, and hit the Wilderness Summit again to try Bolton Outlaw for our next descent.  Bolton Outlaw is quite steep with a lot of obstacles, and it often gets scoured and/or skied enough to make coverage an issue, but from what we’d seen of it, and what’s we’d experience with the skiing up to that point, it seemed like it might be just the ticket.  And it was – it had just the pitch we needed, and coverage was just too good to be true.  Each time I’d come over a rise and over a ledge I’d expect to hear a rock, or a log, or something… but that just didn’t happen.  We’re of course talking touring levels of skier traffic here, but whether you were skiing packed or untracked snow, you just didn’t break through to whatever was below.  It’s still hard to figure out how the coverage got so good without a real consolidated base below, but I’d put it right up there with some of the best runs we’ve had on Bolton Outlaw during any part of the season.

[backedgeapproaching]

3" new today. Long lasting streamer overhead, perfect snow growth.

 

[mahk_webstah]

1 hour ago, backedgeapproaching said:

3" new today. Long lasting streamer overhead, perfect snow growth.

 

It’s amazing how that changes mood, perception, etc.  Quite a scene

[EMontpelierWhiteout]

Discouraging AFD this PM from NWS Burlington.  We need Cindy Lou Who to give the Grinch a talking to.

[backedgeapproaching]

41 minutes ago, mahk_webstah said:

It’s amazing how that changes mood, perception, etc.  Quite a scene

For sure. Great day at Bromley with my kids over the weekend, and another snowy day out the window today. I'm at peace with that hideous cutter, is what it is.

[wxeyeNH]

After the snowstorm the other day it has been perfect icicle growing weather.  Near freezing during the day  and 20s at night.  With the Christmas lights on in our sunroom and the snow outside it looks like a movie set.  

[J.Spin]

Below I’ve added the north to south listing of available snowfall totals from the Vermont ski areas for Winter Storm Diaz based on what I found on the various ski area websites.  The highest totals were down in Central and Southern VT, although Jay Peak did seem to catch a decent amount of snow on the back side of the cycle.

Jay Peak: 22”

Burke: 12”

Smuggler’s Notch: 14”

Stowe: 14”

Bolton Valley: 16”

Mad River Glen: 24”

Sugarbush: 22”

Middlebury: 12+”

Saskadena Six: 16+”

Pico: 25”

Killington: 25”

Okemo: 27”

Bromley: 28”

Magic Mountain: 25”

Stratton: 24”

Mount Snow: 20”

[mreaves]

Strange seeing Saskadena Six. I get it but it takes some getting used to. 

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, J.Spin said:

Below I’ve added the north to south listing of available snowfall totals from the Vermont ski areas for Winter Storm Diaz based on what I found on the various ski area websites.  The highest totals were down in Central and Southern VT, although Jay Peak did seem to catch a decent amount of snow on the back side of the cycle.

Jay Peak: 22”

Burke: 12”

Smuggler’s Notch: 14”

Stowe: 14”

Bolton Valley: 16”

Mad River Glen: 24”

Sugarbush: 22”

Middlebury: 12+”

Saskadena Six: 16+”

Pico: 25”

Killington: 25”

Okemo: 27”

Bromley: 28”

Magic Mountain: 25”

Stratton: 24”

Mount Snow: 20”

I'm not going to completely discount the 22" at Jay but I do wish there was some indication that it was actually measured.  I've heard even from Jay patrollers today that they wish there was a little more science to their observations.

It's still rare in this day and time to see regular measurement images but most mountains have shown some attempt at a visual snow accumulation.  The ones that haven't probably should start to.  It garners a lot of respect and trust in snow reporting.

Looking at CoCoRAHS and other observations, the snowfall with this storm did decrease from south to north.  The north got less, it is what it is.

The Bolton Valley, Stowe, Smuggs, Burke areas owned that lower snowfall that fell in the North.  I won't lie, I think it happened at Jay Peak too.  I hate to say it, but I do not think those staying at that area found 22" on the ground when the other N.VT areas saw 12-16".

On an aside, we saw 2-3" today at both the Lookout and High Road snow plots at 3,000ft.  There's always going to be more at 3600-4295ft... but at the upper mountain snow plots that are are 2/3rds of the way up the hill or more, these snow study plots can be a good measure for mountain snowfall.

[bwt3650]

I'm not going to completely discount the 22" at Jay but I do wish there was some indication that it was actually measured.  I've heard even from Jay patrollers today that they wish there was a little more science to their observations.
It's still rare in this day and time to see regular measurement images but most mountains have shown some attempt at a visual snow accumulation.  The ones that haven't probably should start to.  It garners a lot of respect and trust in snow reporting.
Looking at CoCoRAHS and other observations, the snowfall with this storm did decrease from south to north.  The north got less, it is what it is.
The Bolton Valley, Stowe, Smuggs, Burke areas owned that lower snowfall that fell in the North.  I won't lie, I think it happened at Jay Peak too.  I hate to say it, but I do not think those staying at that area found 22" on the ground when the other N.VT areas saw 12-16".
On an aside, we saw 2-3" today at both the Lookout and High Road snow plots at 3,000ft.  There's always going to be more at 3600-4295ft... but at the upper mountain snow plots that are are 2/3rds of the way up the hill or more, these snow study plots can be a good measure for mountain snowfall.

You know I’m going to chime in….

There was NOT 22” at my place, which is between 1850-1900, just above the tramside base. I’ve heard from friends up there that it did get significantly deeper on the top half of Kitz, which I would guess starts at about 2500’. I’m going to guess it’s the upslope and better ratios that led to the increase. They did score another 2-3 at 1900 last night. Could that have been higher up top? Maybe. They were higher than you guys, but I won’t fight you on the 22 being a stretch. Personally, I hate the complete lack of snow cameras. It’s the snowiest place in the east; show it off. Not sure where you could put a snow board up on that ridge that wouldn’t be useless in the wind, but I’d love to see them try.


I retire in 6 and and then I’ll be up there to measure first flake to last.

[borderwx]

Not 22

But I gave up caring about snow reports a long time ago, your either going skiing or not going skiing

Kitz filled in with deep snow aided by wind, all lee pockets along the trees did.


.

[bwt3650]

Not 22

But I gave up caring about snow reports a long time ago, your either going skiing or not going skiing

Kitz filled in with deep snow aided by wind, all lee pockets along the trees did.


.

Yeah, anything above 6 is going to be good skiing. The number really doesn’t matter.


.

[STILL N OF PIKE]

Looks like euro gives several inches to some NNE Resorts friday am and the mild up lasts about 12 hours . This doesn’t really seem like a big disaster to me 

[bwt3650]

Looks like euro gives several inches to some NNE Resorts friday am and the mild up lasts about 12 hours . This doesn’t really seem like a big disaster to me 

I like it..keep talking dirty to me.


.

[alex]

29 minutes ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

Looks like euro gives several inches to some NNE Resorts friday am and the mild up lasts about 12 hours . This doesn’t really seem like a big disaster to me 

I'd like to think that, but the AFD was pretty gruesome. My biggest concern of course is flooding... but would also like to salvage some snowpack if we can. I don't even particularly care much for me - we see plenty of snow (it's STILL snowing today, after all) and even my kids don't care that much since they're so used to it, but it's so sad for people who come up for Xmas break and it's their one ski trip a year. Also, I'm in a really bad spot for retention in cutters. I think the only way we don't downslope is on West or North winds; we are otherwise surrounded by 5000 ft+ peaks. The mountains giveth, the mountains taketh

[STILL N OF PIKE]

7 minutes ago, bwt3650 said:

I like it..keep talking dirty to me.


.

Well then look at last panel of nam for Friday late afternoon - early evening . Covers VT with a quick several inches of “resurfacing”  and look to at least hit Cannon next frame . 

[STILL N OF PIKE]

3 minutes ago, alex said:

I'd like to think that, but the AFD was pretty gruesome. My biggest concern of course is flooding... but would also like to salvage some snowpack if we can. I don't even particularly care much for me - we see plenty of snow (it's STILL snowing today, after all) and even my kids don't care that much since they're so used to it, but it's so sad for people who come up for Xmas break and it's their one ski trip a year. Also, I'm in a really bad spot for retention in cutters. I think the only way we don't downslope is on West or North winds; we are otherwise surrounded by 5000 ft+ peaks. The mountains giveth, the mountains taketh

I guess the modeled temps Trending a bit cooler For the storm over the last day or so And what seems like a short duration of 45f +readings are at least better then what this looked like regarding rain / runoff/etc couple days ago 

[powderfreak]

3 hours ago, bwt3650 said:

You know I’m going to chime in….

There was NOT 22” at my place, which is between 1850-1900, just above the tramside base. I’ve heard from friends up there that it did get significantly deeper on the top half of Kitz, which I would guess starts at about 2500’. I’m going to guess it’s the upslope and better ratios that led to the increase. They did score another 2-3 at 1900 last night. Could that have been higher up top? Maybe. They were higher than you guys, but I won’t fight you on the 22 being a stretch. Personally, I hate the complete lack of snow cameras. It’s the snowiest place in the east; show it off. Not sure where you could put a snow board up on that ridge that wouldn’t be useless in the wind, but I’d love to see them try.


I retire in 6 and and then I’ll be up there to measure first flake to last.

 

3 hours ago, borderwx said:

Not 22

But I gave up caring about snow reports a long time ago, your either going skiing or not going skiing

Kitz filled in with deep snow aided by wind, all lee pockets along the trees did.
 

Yeah you guys know me, I'm not trying to start sh*t, ha.  I just have this dream of comparing apples to apples for the science aspect of it.  I've always appreciated the show and tell style to snow measuring, because if 22" did fall up there it would be more interesting to see the why it did.  Meso-scale banding, upslope, etc.

Occasionally a number falls out of line with the overall tenor of a storm distribution (take all other ski areas and they blend in with the larger storm total distribution map) of a south to north gradient.  I know its a tired topic and difficult to discuss without trying to sound like some sour grapes or something stupid like that, ha ha.  15 years ago when I first started and was green it would've bothered me, now I just find it curious.

BTW, Jay's new comms guy is a great dude.  Big pickup for Jay Peak. I'll be working on him for a Snow Cam.  There has to be a place they can stick one that just gets nuked.

[tamarack]

2 hours ago, alex said:

I'd like to think that, but the AFD was pretty gruesome. My biggest concern of course is flooding... but would also like to salvage some snowpack if we can. I don't even particularly care much for me - we see plenty of snow (it's STILL snowing today, after all) and even my kids don't care that much since they're so used to it, but it's so sad for people who come up for Xmas break and it's their one ski trip a year. Also, I'm in a really bad spot for retention in cutters. I think the only way we don't downslope is on West or North winds; we are otherwise surrounded by 5000 ft+ peaks. The mountains giveth, the mountains taketh

GYX discussion this morning talked 2-3" RA with higher in spots, total disaster.  The "bigger boat" (sic) thread notes possible shorter warm wedge for NNE, and more CAD, which is what my snowpack survives on.  Still a Grinch but maybe not a 12/25/20 type GRINCH.

[powderfreak]

Man, those are some big numbers for 10-meter wind gusts on the NAM on Friday.

 

[bwt3650]

Yeah you guys know me, I'm not trying to start sh*t, ha.  I just have this dream of comparing apples to apples for the science aspect of it.  I've always appreciated the show and tell style to snow measuring, because if 22" did fall up there it would be more interesting to see the why it did.  Meso-scale banding, upslope, etc.
Occasionally a number falls out of line with the overall tenor of a storm distribution (take all other ski areas and they blend in with the larger storm total distribution map) of a south to north gradient.  I know its a tired topic and difficult to discuss without trying to sound like some sour grapes or something stupid like that, ha ha.  15 years ago when I first started and was green it would've bothered me, now I just find it curious.
BTW, Jay's new comms guy is a great dude.  Big pickup for Jay Peak. I'll be working on him for a Snow Cam.  There has to be a place they can stick one that just gets nuked.

It would be cool comparing more exact numbers for a season. The science of it and how it just snows whenever it wants up there is fascinating.

Definitely work on him for cameras. They need one at the bases and up high. It would be cool to see the differences and people who don’t know the mountain would be able to see how often it really does just fart out snow. Let him know their snow reports are great. They update 3-4 time a day and are including snowmaking updates this year (my personal favorite). People talk about how jay and Stowe are the few left who actually give snow reports instead of canned bs. They just need to get you doing live wind measurements on top of tower 16 of the flyer.


.

[powderfreak]

GFS is pretty similar.

The downslope area NW of the Greens out in the Champlain Valley and flats of southern Quebec are going to absolutely rip.

[wxeyeNH]

Below are the maximum wind gusts forecasted (Weatherbell products) from the EC and GFS.  GFS is a bit faster but you get the idea of the speeds as they pass through.  I don't believe we will widespread 60-70mph gusts like the GFS is showing.  When was the last time that happened? but does anyone remember the last time we had a 970mb low just NW of New England?   I am curious as to anyone's  thoughts?  One thing is for sure,  if there is widespread outages it is going to be a cold Christmas for many.

[alex]

Are 60-70 mph gusts that big of a deal with bare trees? I feel like we get that a few times every year without much consequences - but I could be completely wrong (and the fact that so many are focusing on winds probably tell me that I AM wrong)

[wxeyeNH]

14 minutes ago, alex said:

Are 60-70 mph gusts that big of a deal with bare trees? I feel like we get that a few times every year without much consequences - but I could be completely wrong (and the fact that so many are focusing on winds probably tell me that I AM wrong)

Alex.  That is a good question.  The highest wind gust I have ever recorded on my Davis station is 61mph.  That brought down a lot of trees around here but we have lots of big maples, ash and oak.  Up in your area I think there is a lot of small spruce trees that are built for wind and snow.  With your funneling effect maybe you do get that kind of wind but it is very rare that I have seen actual 60mph gusts on the official ASOS reporting stations.  Of course a heavy wet snow or ice storm is worse.  Long story short is I don't know?

[powderfreak]

21 minutes ago, alex said:

Are 60-70 mph gusts that big of a deal with bare trees? I feel like we get that a few times every year without much consequences - but I could be completely wrong (and the fact that so many are focusing on winds probably tell me that I AM wrong)

Some areas are more prone to it, like NW sides of mountains in New England can rip big wind.  Here it’s the towns NW of Mansfield and the rest of the Spine.  I bet you mix down big winds on SE flow.  Phin always saw big winds on south flow.

[alex]

16 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Some areas are more prone to it, like NW sides of mountains in New England can rip big wind.  Here it’s the towns NW of Mansfield and the rest of the Spine.  I bet you mix down big winds on SE flow.  Phin always saw big winds on south flow.

Yes we do! 

[tamarack]

2 hours ago, alex said:

Are 60-70 mph gusts that big of a deal with bare trees? I feel like we get that a few times every year without much consequences - but I could be completely wrong (and the fact that so many are focusing on winds probably tell me that I AM wrong)

The evergreens, starting with balsam fir, are much more vulnerable during the leaf-off season.  That said, the NW gales generated by the 1962 New Year's Eve Bangor blizzard tipped a lot of NNJ trees from all-hardwood forests, including some large white oaks, a species with a tap root and thus usually more windfirm.  No actual measurements to offer, but IMO there were gusts reaching 70 from late on 12/30 thru most of 12/31.  Only the Nov 1950 Apps Gale compares with that event in my personal experience.  12/31/62 had temp 5/-8 at our place, chilly for NNJ, but we had not heard of quantifiable wind chill back then.

[alex]

1 hour ago, tamarack said:

The evergreens, starting with balsam fir, are much more vulnerable during the leaf-off season.  That said, the NW gales generated by the 1962 New Year's Eve Bangor blizzard tipped a lot of NNJ trees from all-hardwood forests, including some large white oaks, a species with a tap root and thus usually more windfirm.  No actual measurements to offer, but IMO there were gusts reaching 70 from late on 12/30 thru most of 12/31.  Only the Nov 1950 Apps Gale compares with that event in my personal experience.  12/31/62 had temp 5/-8 at our place, chilly for NNJ, but we had not heard of quantifiable wind chill back then.

Interesting - thanks for sharing. Most of our evergreens (balsam fir and red spruce) up here are pretty short so maybe less prone to damage, plus our location gets some pretty nasty winds pretty regularly but will be interesting to see. More worried about the potential for flooding than wind damage, but that’s very IMBY

[J.Spin]

After discovering such impressive snow coverage when touring at Wilderness on Sunday, my last couple of ski sessions have actually been on the Bolton Valley Backcountry Network.

Part of Monday afternoon was spent clearing out a tree that had come down in the yard during Winter Storm Diaz, and after that was done I had just enough time to hit the backcountry network for a quick exploratory tour.  I wasn’t absolutely sure what to expect, but I was going to be touring entirely above 2,000’, and unless the conditions over at Wilderness were a fluke or something due to aspect, the adjoining backcountry was likely in similar shape.  The backcountry snow report didn’t even have any notifications about poor coverage or closures, it just indicated that coverage was variable.

I was still planning to be conservative in my initial explorations, and my time was limited with dusk approaching, so I opted for a quick tour with a descent of the Telemark Practice Slope.  On my ascent though, it was immediately obvious how good the coverage was in the surrounding glades, and with just a few tracks here and there in the relatively deep powder, it was too good to pass up.  I ended up skiing some of the glades to the right of the Telemark Practice Slope, and they skied beautifully.  I was initially not expecting such a sublime ride, since we’d really needed at least black diamond pitches on Sunday to avoid getting bogged down, but there must have been a bit more settling of the snowpack by that point, and the addition of the upslope fluff was really just icing on the cake that added a little cushioning with minimal resistance.  The resulting snowpack came together to provide just the right speed for the glades, and it was obvious at that point that a lot more of the gentle and moderate terrain was going to be in play for some excellent powder turns

It's continued to snow over the past couple of days, and we’ve had another 3 to 4 inches down here at the house that’s come in with an average density of around 4% H₂O.  The back end of the storm cycle had already topped off the snowpack with some dry upslope, so we expected that these additional rounds of snow should just represent more quality stuff that’s topping off the upper layers of powder that are already present.  My older son and I headed out for a tour this afternoon that took us a bit above Bryant Cabin, and we skied a good variety of different glades that really solidified just how good the skiing was.  The shallowest slopes are still a bit slow with the depth of the powder, but very nice of you want a gentler pace that lets you work in and out among tighter trees.  As we’d already experienced before though the steep and moderate slopes are skiing great.

It’s amazing how one storm simply brought the backcountry conditions from very early season stuff that I hadn’t even contemplated skiing, to something that skis like a top notch midwinter snowpack.  And it’s not as if this last storm cycle was a 3 to 4 foot monster.  The snowpack we were skiing is only in the range of about 20 inches, but apparently it’s just laid down so well that it does the job.  I’m sure there are steep slopes out there with lots of big obstacles that are nowhere near ready, but the typical glades we skied on the backcountry network today were in great shape.