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Fall 2022 Medium/Long Range Forecast Discussion


Carvers Gap
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We need a tropical/hybrid to break-up a potentially monotonous pattern showing for early-mid November.  Big ridge building on most modeling, and might be quite tough to move once in place.  My guess is that the pattern will flip on a dime as most Nina patterns flip quite quickly to winter.  Anyway, summer-ish(early fall) like pattern showing for the first part of November.  The pattern looks a lot like a standing wave(ridge) over the East.  It gets knocked down but keeps most of the nation east of the Mississippi 5-20+ degrees above normal.  The Euro control has some areas 30+ AN.  I thought we might have dodged extended summer which is common with La Nina.   This will be "extended summer", but without the ultra hot temps.  We have had a nice Fall so far....warmer temps are back and are going to make an attempt to hang on.  Bigger issue is the quickly developing drought in conjunction with warmer-temps.  

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1 hour ago, Save the itchy algae! said:

Yeah I’m just going to hold off with my thoughts for a while,  things were looking good until I opened my mouth then next thing you know everything went poof.

Nah....I take full credit for the massive warm flip in modeling.  Just dig back a few posts and you will see the culprit post around Oct 10th.  Hot take on my part!!!  

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Just glancing at some super LR modeling, looks this indeed(the warmer weather) is a new pattern which (if you know me) I use a general duration rule of about 4-6 weeks(usually 6 weeks is my rule of thumb).  Since this will begin around Nov 1, that would put the next pattern change around mid-December.  Now, a pattern change could just be another warm pattern of a new variety OR a pattern which is only slightly AN OR one which is well BN.  That would mean the heart of winter has a chance to be cold (mid-Dec to end of Jan) - I lean towards that.  Only drawback is one cold spell during winter instead of two.  Bookends of DJF would be likely warm.  It is what it is.   I would be difficult to find a more hostile Pacific in the LR.  The only way I see us having a cold winter is if the blocking occurs in the NAO region. Though, I will ride with the idea that we will see 1-2 extreme cold shots, especially Plateau west, as that fits Nina climatology.  Hopes for an early start to winter are dimming.

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3 hours ago, Carvers Gap said:

Just glancing at some super LR modeling, looks this indeed(the warmer weather) is a new pattern which (if you know me) I use a general duration rule of about 4-6 weeks(usually 6 weeks is my rule of thumb).  Since this will begin around Nov 1, that would put the next pattern change around mid-December.  Now, a pattern change could just be another warm pattern of a new variety OR a pattern which is only slightly AN OR one which is well BN.  That would mean the heart of winter has a chance to be cold (mid-Dec to end of Jan) - I lean towards that.  Only drawback is one cold spell during winter instead of two.  Bookends of DJF would be likely warm.  It is what it is.   I would be difficult to find a more hostile Pacific in the LR.  The only way I see us having a cold winter is if the blocking occurs in the NAO region. Though, I will ride with the idea that we will see 1-2 extreme cold shots, especially Plateau west, as that fits Nina climatology.  Hopes for an early start to winter are dimming.

After being AN for November 2020, it had a cool shot or two but didn't flip until after a +10 to +12 stretch mid-month. Then it went BN and led into the white Christmas. Stayed pretty cold for about 8 weeks here. Less so further east. 

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2 hours ago, John1122 said:

After being AN for November 2020, it had a cool shot or two but didn't flip until after a +10 to +12 stretch mid-month. Then it went BN and led into the white Christmas. Stayed pretty cold for about 8 weeks here. Less so further east. 

Yeah, seems like something similar might be on the table....

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21 hours ago, Carvers Gap said:

Just glancing at some super LR modeling, looks this indeed(the warmer weather) is a new pattern which (if you know me) I use a general duration rule of about 4-6 weeks(usually 6 weeks is my rule of thumb).  Since this will begin around Nov 1, that would put the next pattern change around mid-December.  Now, a pattern change could just be another warm pattern of a new variety OR a pattern which is only slightly AN OR one which is well BN.  That would mean the heart of winter has a chance to be cold (mid-Dec to end of Jan) - I lean towards that.  Only drawback is one cold spell during winter instead of two.  Bookends of DJF would be likely warm.  It is what it is.   I would be difficult to find a more hostile Pacific in the LR.  The only way I see us having a cold winter is if the blocking occurs in the NAO region. Though, I will ride with the idea that we will see 1-2 extreme cold shots, especially Plateau west, as that fits Nina climatology.  Hopes for an early start to winter are dimming.

My hopes have been on the warm west coast and nepac SST'S and a neg. NAO. to throw Nina off kilter. However, current progged pattern  may cool those waters in pac thereby hurting that help.

       Some areas in the urals/Scandinavian and natlantic are looking more favorable for -NAO. So, guess we root for that along with PV disruptions . 

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7 hours ago, Daniel Boone said:

My hopes have been on the warm west coast and nepac SST'S and a neg. NAO. to throw Nina off kilter. However, current progged pattern  may cool those waters in pac thereby hurting that help.

       Some areas in the urals/Scandinavian and natlantic are looking more favorable for -NAO. So, guess we root for that along with PV disruptions . 

The 18z GFS is the way to a good pattern.  Almost need a tropical system to jet up the coast and buckle the jet along the EC.

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CFS v2 18z is seeing a similar trough amplification after Nov10th.  Is that the opening shot for winter?  Maybe.  Long way to go.  I really think one good amplification would pop the ridge in the West and put the trough in the East.  Ensembles aren't biting yet.  That said, and I thought about this yesterday, shoulder season LR modeling is full of false alarms(both warm cold) during past years.

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14 hours ago, Carvers Gap said:

CFS v2 18z is seeing a similar trough amplification after Nov10th.  Is that the opening shot for winter?  Maybe.  Long way to go.  I really think one good amplification would pop the ridge in the West and put the trough in the East.  Ensembles aren't biting yet.  That said, and I thought about this yesterday, shoulder season LR modeling is full of false alarms(both warm cold) during past years.

Agreed. Still some advertised PV stretching upcoming of which looks to aid into an Eastern trough. 

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On 10/26/2022 at 2:21 PM, Carvers Gap said:

Nah....I take full credit for the massive warm flip in modeling.  Just dig back a few posts and you will see the culprit post around Oct 10th.  Hot take on my part!!!  

I wasn't going to say anything............. lol  Hope everyone has been doing well.  Looking forward to the changing seasons.

 

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UK Met Office just went cooler than normal UK through Jan. However they do not forecast for mainland Europe and certainly not North America. Still, their NAO forecast plays a big role, so...

For EU energy security I hope Europe is mild, but we can't control any of that. US is fine either way.

Yes I believe SER will be the dominant weather pattern in La Nina. However a colder secondary pattern is likely, maybe stout once or twice, esp Mid South. Nina is variable and the NAO may get negative at times. 

Check of my favorite 7-day mean surface pressure anomaly echos my mixed sentiment. For the most part cold and stormy is locked up Arctic. No big Arctic highs. However some is spilling into China and North America. Press chart with temperature colors..

Bonus. Australia is colder than normal with that South Pole block from hell.


image.png.9ac617fb8ea5b5b8920654489603a545.png

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Now, let me explain.  There is a tropical system approaching the coast around d8-10.  If it gets caught in a front racing eastward, we get the KOD(kiss of death) early season winter storm that models have been trying to cook-up for weeks.  Something to keep an eye on...but the 18z GFS is almost exactly how that might occur.  

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I feel like these troughs over the next week are really trying to swing though, but the little tropical critter off the SE coast is causing them to glance off to the north. Like John said, the GFS long range has certainly been consistent the past few runs with pulling a bigger trough through mid month once that tropical system gets out of the way. 

We didn't snow on Halloween this year, so I'll check that in the win box for hopeful winter signs. 

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The GFS is really banging the drum at 6z.  Cosgrove on Facebook is mentioning a cold weather intrusion.  There Holy Grail of November wx (for me) is a hybrid tropical system that gets entrained in legit cold front.   Outside chance of that right now.  That said, the GFS has been in error w/ that look at LR for about 2-3 weeks.  However, that looks is now at d8-10.  We know the euro struggles during shoulder season.  At the very least, the GFS is now leaning towards a cold shot late next weekend.  

Weather is just a wee bit more interesting than it was a few days ago...

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4 hours ago, Holston_River_Rambler said:

I feel like these troughs over the next week are really trying to swing though, but the little tropical critter off the SE coast is causing them to glance off to the north. Like John said, the GFS long range has certainly been consistent the past few runs with pulling a bigger trough through mid month once that tropical system gets out of the way. 

We didn't snow on Halloween this year, so I'll check that in the win box for hopeful winter signs. 

Exactly what I've been thinking too. That pest is definitely blocking the flow as it's creating confluence n and nw of it. Providing things line up upstream, once that thing's outa the way,  we may be in business. 

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5 hours ago, Carvers Gap said:

Strong cold signal showing up on the 12z GEFS after mid-month.  The Euro Weeklies had this to some extent on Monday.

Yeah, if we can continue to get these PV disruptions it may make for an interesting Winter regardless of enso and PDO state. 

       The 60's Decade comes to mind. A decent amount of La nina -PDO Year's in there. They did fluctuate temp wise as you had the mild dry periods but, some healthy cold snowy one's as well. 

    Blocking was a mainstay during those Winter's. I don't know what the catalyst was ; quite possibly PV disruptions played a role. 

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Please do not share the first image because it is a subscription. Does it look so familiar around here? Cold is coming, but could be very modulated into the shallow SER. Too early in the season to undercut.

My favorite pressure chart is mixed signals; so of course, I'm bearish East Tenn. Maybe the Mid-South? I'm not sure if winter or severe, lol!

image.thumb.png.9337f3c74d8f6a5ec7f36dd9d895e737.png

image.png.dc679a0dca47fb52f8115b0a0f24aec8.png

 

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1 hour ago, nrgjeff said:

Please do not share the first image because it is a subscription. Does it look so familiar around here? Cold is coming, but could be very modulated into the shallow SER. Too early in the season to undercut.

My favorite pressure chart is mixed signals; so of course, I'm bearish East Tenn. Maybe the Mid-South? I'm not sure if winter or severe, lol!

image.thumb.png.9337f3c74d8f6a5ec7f36dd9d895e737.png

image.png.dc679a0dca47fb52f8115b0a0f24aec8.png

 

Yeah you can see on the extended model run that the SER is bouncing the fronts to the north already with a shit PAC....

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1 hour ago, Met1985 said:

Yeah you can see on the extended model run that the SER is bouncing the fronts to the north already with a shit PAC....

If strong blocking can setup, it'll squash that thing enough to put at least Northern area's in the game for frozen precip regardless of the PAC setup. Also, would bring much h needed rain to the South. 

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