The 2022 - 2023 Ski Season Thread

[backedgeapproaching]

1 hour ago, mreaves said:

I agree, there are numerous factors that come into play.  We also need to remember that many of the employees that work at the resorts and other tourism oriented businesses would also be using, if not STRs then MTRs, Medium Term Rentals, for the entire season so some of the shift is there.  It's hard to incentivize a focus on non-luxury housing though.  Developers will build where they can make the most profit and that's where the market is.  It's also harder to build in our areas.  Between regulations, which can be changed, physical challenges with terrain and the simple fact that when people think of moving to NNE, most aren't thinking of living in an apartment block.  Most people want to live in a house in the country.    

There was a glut of housing pre-covid in this area where houses had literally been sitting on the market for years in some cases.  It's amazing how picky we were able to be when shopping around for housing, listing agents would send multiple follow up emails and phone calls for a house we saw that we had really had no interest in buying, trying everything they could to make it seem appealing.  Now its get us your best and final 3 days after it's listed. 

Many service industry, blue collar, etc were still priced out even back pre 2020. (At least in Manchester/Dorset,etc) There were not a ton of long term rentals, but definitely some, those have seemed to vanish with owners wanting to cash out on the market. Most service industry from here live over the border in ENY--Granville, Greenwich, Hoosick Falls when there are rentals and much cheaper housing. 

The 250k-500k homes pre covid are the real killer.  Those were still in reach for many locals around here--Teachers, law enforcement, steady 2 income family, small business owner, Orvis workforce, etc.  Those are now 550k-1Mil at 7% with about half going to CASH buyers.  Some of the places where new students have come from in my kids classes--Seattle, Boston, NYC, NJ, DC, Florida, Minneapolis, Los Angeles, CT.  They had to add a third class in my daughters 5th grade.  The family from Seattle literally just did a Google search and moved here, never had been to VT before. They did a zoom tour of house and bought it no inspection, obviously sight unseen(well in person at least), drove cross country and realized the house had no basement when they went inside and tried to find the door to it.  When you are going against 10 offers, you might miss some stuff you would think is standard.(I'm sure there are plenty of remote buying stories like that)   Hard to compete in a small town with limited inventory when the buyer pool is national. 

There has definitely been a ground swell to get affordable housing options has been mentioned by you and Alex and others.  Zoning, Height restrictions, red tape stuff always seems to pop up thought before even getting off the ground. 

 

 

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, backedgeapproaching said:

There was a glut of housing pre-covid in this area where houses had literally been sitting on the market for years in some cases.  It's amazing how picky we were able to be when shopping around for housing, listing agents would send multiple follow up emails and phone calls for a house we saw that we had really had no interest in buying, trying everything they could to make it seem appealing.  Now its get us your best and final 3 days after it's listed. 

Many service industry, blue collar, etc were still priced out even back pre 2020. (At least in Manchester/Dorset,etc) There were not a ton of long term rentals, but definitely some, those have seemed to vanish with owners wanting to cash out on the market. Most service industry from here live over the border in ENY--Granville, Greenwich, Hoosick Falls when there are rentals and much cheaper housing. 

The 250k-500k homes pre covid are the real killer.  Those were still in reach for many locals around here--Teachers, law enforcement, steady 2 income family, small business owner, Orvis workforce, etc.  Those are now 550k-1Mil at 7% with about half going to CASH buyers.  Some of the places where new students have come from in my kids classes--Seattle, Boston, NYC, NJ, DC, Florida, Minneapolis, Los Angeles, CT.  They had to add a third class in my daughters 5th grade.  The family from Seattle literally just did a Google search and moved here, never had been to VT before. They did a zoom tour of house and bought it no inspection, obviously sight unseen(well in person at least), drove cross country and realized the house had no basement when they went inside and tried to find the door to it.  When you are going against 10 offers, you might miss some stuff you would think is standard.(I'm sure there are plenty of remote buying stories like that)   Hard to compete in a small town with limited inventory when the buyer pool is national. 

There has definitely been a ground swell to get affordable housing options has been mentioned by you and Alex and others.  Zoning, Height restrictions, red tape stuff always seems to pop up thought before even getting off the ground. 

 

 

The bolded is the real crux of the community issue.  The home inventory that was removed from that $100-$200k annual family/couple income class (even spouse couples making $250k around here) in many areas has definitely upped the ante.  The teachers, police, city hall employees, middle management to director levels of hospitality/service industry, business owners, etc are all out on buying stuff around here now it seems.

I think about what Phin’s place went for, the land, size, view, etc.  That might get you a fixer upper on small land around here now.  Or maybe just a 2-3 bedroom condo/townhome?  I’m tempted to go all in to some remote spot but I missed that boat by a few years lol.

Even if you find something you can afford, it’s bought cash sight unseen overnight.  Forget the time to make sure financing is in line.  That’s one of the biggest hurdles for most of the folks who could’ve worked towards those $250-$750k level homes…competing with all cash offers, no inspections, etc on real short notice and they are all now $750k+.

It’s just market forces at work and it’s no one’s fault… no person has a right to live somewhere anymore than another human… but it’ll be interesting to see how the communities proceed because you still need prime age work force people to make things “go.”

[backedgeapproaching]

6 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

The bolded is the real crux of the community issue.  The home inventory that was removed from that $100-$200k annual family/couple income class (even spouse couples making $250k around here) in many areas has definitely upped the ante.  The teachers, police, city hall employees, middle management to director levels of hospitality/service industry, business owners, etc are all out on buying stuff around here now it seems.

I think about what Phin’s place went for, the land, size, view, etc.  That might get you a fixer upper on small land around here now.  Or maybe just a 2-3 bedroom condo/townhome?  So jealous of that price to quality of property ratio, ha.

Even if you find something you can afford, it’s bought cash sight unseen overnight.  Forget the time to make sure financing is in line.  That’s one of the biggest hurdles for most of the folks who could’ve worked towards those $250-$750k level homes…competing with all cash offers, no inspections, etc on real short notice and they are all now $750k+.

 

Sums it really, the 100k-200k income earners just sitting tight. I will say almost everyone of our friends or kids friends parents already owned pre-Covid, even those with alot of equity in their home, it doesn't make sense because as it would just be a lateral move with a higher interest rate even with a massive down-payment.

The 1 million+ housing market is interesting, those rarely sold pre covid, those just sat forever and ever. Now, going like hotcakes..lol. 

[snowgeek]

It’s time to start trying to answer the question “Is Killington gonna be ready for the FIS on 11/26?” 23 days and counting. I think they will pull it off, but current temps are definitely disconcerting. Hopefully pattern flip isn’t delayed and they can start cranking out the snow soon enough. Darn ground is gonna be so warm after this weekend. Get that PNA flipped asap!


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[CT Rain]

Booked Stowe for New Years.

You can bank on a cutter with heavy rain for those days. 

[WinterWolf]

42 minutes ago, CT Rain said:

Booked Stowe for New Years.

You can bank on a cutter with heavy rain for those days. 

Nice!   Nah…you good this year Bro.  
 

My buddies and I just booked a house/cabin for essentially the winter, in northern Maine where we ride our sleds, (December 26-March 10).  So we’re hoping for a good start too, so we can get our gear up there and get a good trip in right after Xmas. 

[CT Rain]

12 minutes ago, WinterWolf said:

Nice!   Nah…you good this year Bro.  
 

My buddies and I just booked a house/cabin for essentially the winter, in northern Maine where we ride our sleds, (December 26-March 10).  So we’re hoping for a good start too, so we can get our gear up there and get a good trip in right after Xmas. 

That'll be great. I'm trying to get back out to Telluride this year - even bad years out year are good

[MRVexpat]

1 hour ago, snowgeek said:

It’s time to start trying to answer the question “Is Killington gonna be ready for the FIS on 11/26?” 23 days and counting. I think they will pull it off, but current temps are definitely disconcerting. Hopefully pattern flip isn’t delayed and they can start cranking out the snow soon enough. Darn ground is gonna be so warm after this weekend. Get that PNA flipped asap!


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Their snowmaking capacity is absolutely insane as most on here know however, the FIS does have very specific depth regulations. I wonder with multiple rounds in Europe already being canceled if they make an exception. Either way looks like they will have the ability to start to blow overnight starting next weekend. Should be enough time to get er done but who knows. 

[Baroclinic Zone]

Jay Peak has a buyer

https://www.wcvb.com/article/utah-based-company-completes-purchase-of-jay-peak-their-second-resort-in-new-england/41854070

[Baroclinic Zone]

This sounds ambitious.  A gondola from base of Canyon up to the resorts.

https://www.alta.com/stories/little-cottonwood-canyon-final-eis

https://gondolaworks.com/

[CT Rain]

27 minutes ago, Baroclinic Zone said:

This sounds ambitious.  A gondola from base of Canyon up to the resorts.

https://www.alta.com/stories/little-cottonwood-canyon-final-eis

https://gondolaworks.com/

They need something. it was a sh*tshow last year when I was there in March. 

[snowgeek]

They need something. it was a sh*tshow last year when I was there in March. 

Going out in Feb. Is it a schist show midweek too? Is the road to Brighton/ Solitude any better? Might have to hit Snowbasin multiple days if the Cottonwoods are too crowded.

[powderfreak]

3 hours ago, CT Rain said:

They need something. it was a sh*tshow last year when I was there in March. 

Skiing is popular these days and two lane roads don’t help.  Powder days are well forecast and well advertised too… there’s no sneaking a storm in when a massive city lays at the bottom.

[powderfreak]

51 minutes ago, snowgeek said:

Going out in Feb. Is it a schist show midweek too? Is the road to Brighton/ Solitude any better? Might have to hit Snowbasin multiple days if the Cottonwoods are too crowded.

Brighton and Solitude is a bit better but it’s still a two lane road.  All it takes is one car or one accident to jack the whole thing up for an hour or two.

Midweek was always fine for me in LCC but I haven’t been there in 3 winters.  Of course any Winter Storm Warning these days is pretty much a shitshow in a lot of areas.  People know snow is coming, can make plans to move other obligations, and with everyone having a season pass these days (Epic, Ikon, Mtn Collective, whatever) they are going to the mountain on that powder day… the day the internet has been telling you is coming, the local TV broadcasters talk about, social media weather outlets, the iPhone blowing up Winter Storm Watch or Warning, etc.

Hype in storms is at an all-time high in skiing IMO.  To be honest, it’s counterproductive but the best days/vibes sometimes are when it’s not snowing…and that’s wild, ha.

[CT Rain]

1 hour ago, powderfreak said:

Brighton and Solitude is a bit better but it’s still a two lane road.  All it takes is one car or one accident to jack the whole thing up for an hour or two.

Midweek was always fine for me in LCC but I haven’t been there in 3 winters.  Of course any Winter Storm Warning these days is pretty much a shitshow in a lot of areas.  People know snow is coming, can make plans to move other obligations, and with everyone having a season pass these days (Epic, Ikon, Mtn Collective, whatever) they are going to the mountain on that powder day… the day the internet has been telling you is coming, the local TV broadcasters talk about, social media weather outlets, the iPhone blowing up Winter Storm Watch or Warning, etc.

Hype in storms is at an all-time high in skiing IMO.  To be honest, it’s counterproductive but the best days/vibes sometimes are when it’s not snowing…and that’s wild, ha.

Yeah weekdays were OK but on one snowy morning it took forever to get up the canyon. 

It's worth the pain... a whole lot better than PC/Deer Valley.

[powderfreak]

9 hours ago, CT Rain said:

Yeah weekdays were OK but on one snowy morning it took forever to get up the canyon. 

It's worth the pain... a whole lot better than PC/Deer Valley.

The skiing is just best in LCC.  BCC was ok but I go out west I want that big vertical, dramatic mountain experience that LCC has.

[MRVexpat]

1 hour ago, powderfreak said:

The skiing is just best in LCC.  BCC was ok but I go out west I want that big vertical, dramatic mountain experience that LCC has.

Yup

[Brian5671]

22 hours ago, CT Rain said:

Booked Stowe for New Years.

You can bank on a cutter with heavy rain for those days. 

that's the negative to east coast skiing any time of the year unfortunately....we booked Okemo for early March-who knows what'll happen

[CT Rain]

51 minutes ago, Brian5671 said:

that's the negative to east coast skiing any time of the year unfortunately....we booked Okemo for early March-who knows what'll happen

I bought all new gear this year. My stuff was definitely at the end of it's lifespan so I'm excited to get out there. 

[Baroclinic Zone]

Looks like Jordan quad will be going to pleasant mountain. 

[snowgeek]

Anyone ever ski Snowbasin? It’s on the Ikon. And might be a good option if LCC is a mess.


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[Baroclinic Zone]

On 11/4/2022 at 11:21 PM, snowgeek said:

Anyone ever ski Snowbasin? It’s on the Ikon. And might be a good option if LCC is a mess.


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It hosted a slew of Olympic events so I'm sure the mountain will not disappoint.  There's always Powder Mountain up the street as well.

[bch2014]

On 11/4/2022 at 11:21 PM, snowgeek said:

Anyone ever ski Snowbasin? It’s on the Ikon. And might be a good option if LCC is a mess.


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I have skied probably 9 or 10 days total. It is a great place to ski, but not ideal for a storm day. It is very much open bowl skiing and that area of the Wasatch is prone to fog.

[snowgeek]

Thanks for the replies. Looks like a cool mountain, but ONLY gets 350” of snow lol.


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[MarkO]

I guess any opportunity and they will

[bwt3650]

2 hours ago, MarkO said:

I guess any opportunity and they will

At this point, I guess you have to.  Nothing on North Ridge so probably holding off til Sunday there and just hoping the temps last long enough to put down something that doesn't get washed away this weekend on Superstar.

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, bwt3650 said:

At this point, I guess you have to.  Nothing on North Ridge so probably holding off til Sunday there and just hoping the temps last long enough to put down something that doesn't get washed away this weekend on Superstar.

Yeah they face they aren’t blowing on North Ridge shows the situation at hand.  

[bwt3650]

33 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah they face they aren’t blowing on North Ridge shows the situation at hand.  

It's a no brainer.  They are not opening this weekend with the rain, even if they could put down the base in time.  Turn the guns on Sunday night and open by mid week if you want.  I think the window post Sunday is good enough that anyone who wants the death ribbon can open by next weekend; then game on for the season....

 

que the pessimism.

[powderfreak]

16 minutes ago, bwt3650 said:

It's a no brainer.  They are not opening this weekend with the rain, even if they could put down the base in time.  Turn the guns on Sunday night and open by mid week if you want.  I think the window post Sunday is good enough that anyone who wants the death ribbon can open by next weekend; then game on for the season....

 

que the pessimism.

I agree.  To open Friday for here I think snowmaking needs to be done by Wednesday, to allow to drain/cure and then time for pushing it all out.  Also punts any cold late in the week to another set of runs… honestly I’d just run gangbusters all week long to take advantage of it and not worry about turning it off to get a decent product quality and spending a couple days pushing when it’s cold.  Who knows.  It looks like a good cold shot, I’d max it out.

[Baroclinic Zone]

lol Alta expecting ~24" over next couple days.  71" already on season and they haven't even opened up for winter operations.