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December 26-27 Storm Threat


Baroclinic Zone

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NAM and GFS both had a blizz at about 48 hrs in Feb of 2009; EURO had an inverted trough of garbage...guess what took place.

Was that the early-month event that showed up as a bowling ball and ended as a wet torch? If so, IIRC, the phail occurred more than 48 hr out, but still a weenie nightmare.

One reason I ask is because something rather nice happened in the Maine foothills later that month.

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I watched it, personally I have a tendency to get frustrated with some mets hype but the explanation you had was a good one highliting the problems associated with the data. :thumbsup:

Yeah I basically said the most likely scenario was a light-moderate event... a couple inch kind of deal. But I said some of our computer models are insisting on a huge hit and while it's not likely it's possible so we'll have to watch it.

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I think I would go the "Chances of a huge storm for eastern SNE are increasing, but still a lot of uncertainty" route...sounds like thats basically what Harvey did.

Your rule of thumb regarding the NOGAPS - it paused a little at 12z, but it's been coming west and is now a nice hit. Hard to ignore and I have no idea how it could be that the lowly nogaps also got bad data.

I'm not wavering from the .5 line as drawn yesterday. I'm really concerned NCEP has made a major mistake.

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I think I would go the "Chances of a huge storm for eastern SNE are increasing, but still a lot of uncertainty" route...sounds like thats basically what Harvey did.

Back here we have a lot more to lose than Harvey does. At least BOS gets snow even with a Euro-type solution. Maybe even warning criteria. We could easily get totally whiffed back here.

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What scares me is that the EURO is infaillible when it shows boring.

The OP EC hasn't had the same forecast for more than 2 runs this entire storm. It's the only model trending east right now.

I think some would benefit from the discussions taking place in the UK and Europe regarding Euro performance in the reason period over there. It's been ugly.

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Back here we have a lot more to lose than Harvey does. At least BOS gets snow even with a Euro-type solution. Maybe even warning criteria. We could easily get totally whiffed back here.

You've done a great job with moderation and objectivity even though it's obvious here you're a weenie at heart.

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From Albany.... Nice discussion

...MAJOR EAST COAST STORM APPEARS TO BE EAST OF OUR FORECAST

AREA...OR DOES IT?...

AS OF 5PM... NCEP 18Z MODEL DATA HAS ARRIVED WITH A TREND A FURTHER

TO THE WEST WITH THE UPCOMING SUN-MON EVENT. AS NOTED

BELOW...INITIAL ERROR CONDITIONS REMAIN WITH DOWNSTREAM IMPACTS

QUITE DRAMATIC. PER THE GFS...CONVECTIVE FEEDBACK DOES SEEM

PLAUSIBLE ACROSS THE SOUTHEAST CONUS AND TIMING OF THOSE UPSTREAM

WAVES REMAINS IN QUESTION. LATEST ENSEMBLE INFORMATION FROM THE

GFS/SREF/ECMWF ALSO SUGGEST A POSSIBLE WESTWARD SHIFT. SO OVERALL

CONFIDENCE REMAINS RATHER LOW AT THIS TIME AS WE WILL CONTINUE TO

CLOSELY MONITOR UPSTREAM TRENDS. LETS HOPE THE 00Z RAOB NETWORK

TONIGHT CAPTURES THE KEY FEATURES...

WE WILL LEAVE THE HWO ALONE AND THE CURRENT FORECAST/GRIDS.

PREV DISCUSSION...

THIS HOLIDAY WEEKEND...PLENTY OF ATTENTION ON THE DEVELOPING EAST

COAST CYCLOGENESIS. NCEP MODEL SUITE...ALONG WITH INTERNATIONAL

GLOBAL MODELS...MAINLY FAVOR THE FURTHER OFFSHORE SOLUTION ON THIS

EVOLVING STORM. HERE ARE A FEW KEY ELEMENTS THAT THE MODELS ARE

HAVING CHALLENGES WITH THE INITIALIZATION TODAY...

1. H2O VAPOR IMAGERY REVEALS A VERY TIGHT/STRONG SHORT WAVE OVER

CENTRAL TEXAS.

2. A FAST MOVING SHORT WAVE OVER SOUTHEAST NEBRASKA APPROACHING

MISSOURI.

3. ADDITIONAL COMPLEX WAVES OVER SASKATCHEWAN/MANITOBA

THAT CONTINUE TO DIVE SOUTHWARD...ALBEIT SLOWER MOVEMENT THAN THE

DOWNSTREAM WAVE OVER NE/MO.

4. UPPER FLOW AND TROUGH ORIENTATION REMAINS POSITIVELY TILTED AT

THIS TIME.

THROUGH EXTENSIVE COLLABORATION WITH NEIGHBORING OFFICES AND

HPC...THE 12Z GFS WAS DISCOUNTED. THE MODEL DID NOT INITIALIZE

WELL WITH ERRORS IN THE HEIGHT FIELD OVER NE AND NORTH CENTRAL

CANADA. ERRORS APPEAR TO BE LESS WITH THE 12Z

NAM/GGEM/ECMWF/UKMET. THE GFS AMPLIFIES THESE ERRORS...ALONG WITH

WHAT SEEMS TO BE INCREASED CONVECTIVE FEEDBACK...FOR RAPID

DEEPENING OF THE EAST COAST CYCLOGENESIS SUN-MON AND VERY CLOSE

TO THE SHORELINE /IN OTHER WORDS...A MAJOR STORM FOR THE FORECAST

AREA/. THIS TOO APPEARS TO HAVE IMPACTED ITS ENSEMBLE MEMBERS

WITH ASSOCIATED PERTURBATIONS OFF THESE ERRORS.

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Interesting to see on the 18Z GFS the surface low track up the eastern seaboard following the land curvature. The timing of the upper level dynamics is just perfect to hook the surface low right around the outer banks, towards the jersey shore, then paralleling long island and southern new england coast.

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From Albany.... Nice discussion

THROUGH EXTENSIVE COLLABORATION WITH NEIGHBORING OFFICES AND

HPC...THE 12Z GFS WAS DISCOUNTED. THE MODEL DID NOT INITIALIZE

WELL WITH ERRORS IN THE HEIGHT FIELD OVER NE AND NORTH CENTRAL

CANADA. ERRORS APPEAR TO BE LESS WITH THE 12Z

NAM/GGEM/ECMWF/UKMET. THE GFS AMPLIFIES THESE ERRORS...ALONG WITH

WHAT SEEMS TO BE INCREASED CONVECTIVE FEEDBACK...FOR RAPID

DEEPENING OF THE EAST COAST CYCLOGENESIS SUN-MON AND VERY CLOSE

TO THE SHORELINE /IN OTHER WORDS...A MAJOR STORM FOR THE FORECAST

AREA/. THIS TOO APPEARS TO HAVE IMPACTED ITS ENSEMBLE MEMBERS

WITH ASSOCIATED PERTURBATIONS OFF THESE ERRORS.

Answers some questions, but the 18z should have muted the errors not continued to make them more pronounced. Something is seriously f'd up.

Look at the 18 UA composites, the RUC throughout and compare it to the 18z GFS for instance. There's just no significant differences for that time range.

Mysterious.

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