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January Medium/Long Range Discussion


WinterWxLuvr
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10 minutes ago, mattie g said:

So...give you the cold and you'll take your chances with precip?

I'm always skeptical during these arctic blasts.  Seems like they usually end up cold, dry and windy.  They're more impressive from an energy use perspective but the big snow events around here seem to be when things are marginal.  At least in my area.  

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Sorry if some of this has been said but my morning are crazy right now and I don't have time to scroll through all the posts.  

My first thought when I saw the 6z GFS was "that's unlikely" simply because of "how" it pulled that off.  There were 2 keys to what it did, the first was simply trending west and slower with the NS SW diving in from western Canada that becomes the storm.   That part I can see happening because its been a trend across guidance the last 24 hours.   That slowing allows more time for the suppressive flow to relax and that is critical because no guidance is backing off on the suppressive look at the start of the weekend.  But even with that slowing the second just as critical part is how it handled the TPV lobes to our northeast and that was the part I found hard to buy into.  It did a fujiwara pinwheel dance where the initial vortex lifts while a second one pinwheels around it to the west, dives in, and does a complete phase/capture and pulls the low straight up the coast.  That's an incredibly complicated evolution.  It can and has happened but its rare and even more rare for guidance to pick up on that and model it correctly at any type of lead.  Frankly thats the kind of synoptic setup where I could still see the kind of huge last minute busts we used to get all the time still happen.  Its so many moving parts and little details and models struggle resolving phasing in a fast flow to begin with.  So my initial reaction was...yea right.  

 

But then the 6z Euro control went all in on that exact evolution.  And scanning across all the overnight guidance...and specifically those features up top that seem to be the key, there was a trend across all guidance towards what the GFS spit out.  Slower SW that becomes the storm...and a trend towards a duel pinwheeling of the flow up top.  So I guess on review I am SLIGHTLY more optimistic then I was after just seeing the GFS op run...but to be clear the preponderance of evidence is still against it fully pulling off the phase/capture we need for that outcome, and even if the majority was showing that I would still warn that this is the type of setup that is very likely to have significant changes even at the last minute because of the crazy amount of moving parts in this equation.  

 

To sum it all up...I have no freaking idea.  

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16 minutes ago, MillvilleWx said:

Man, the GEFS and EPS are absolutely all in on extended winter for these parts. GFS deterministic showed a textbook cold outbreak signature for much of the CONUS. GEFS supports a long lasting cold signature. Winter is coming guys, buckle up!

 

For sure,  lots of cold and active. Even Walt Drag is excited and the super long range modeling keeps extending the winter pattern. 

Awesome mean at 360 hours from the Euro and the latest CFSv2  has gone colder in early Feb.   

 

C512E3BD-E265-4466-BC5F-3E49C16BD655.thumb.png.7bd7e9345ac791ce40705456f3786aa7.png.cf3027621d933b50f73a7b6ba5d2e9cc.png

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We are heading into El Nino, it looks like

TAO_5Day_EQ_xz.thumb.gif.91f633deb251e24952e2566674b56bc8.gif

I showed you the counter example, 1987-88 where the cold subsurface water during El Nino gave us a lot of southern jet High pressures. I think the warm bubble in the subsurface won't last past April-May, but it does directly correlate to +PNA conditions directly(when 165W-135W is warm-warming). 

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1 minute ago, psuhoffman said:

I know people hate our typical warm Christmas but having a cold pattern set in early January is perfect to maximize our snowfall opportunities.  

First time in many a year that I can recall cold and snow setting up shop for a long run in early to mid Jan. Normally it is time for the Jan thaw, not this year.  Excellent !!! 

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8 minutes ago, StormchaserChuck! said:

We are heading into El Nino, it looks like

TAO_5Day_EQ_xz.thumb.gif.91f633deb251e24952e2566674b56bc8.gif

I showed you the counter example, 1987-88 where the cold subsurface water during El Nino gave us a lot of southern jet High pressures. I think the warm bubble in the subsurface won't last past April-May, but it does directly correlate to +PNA conditions directly(when 165W-135W is warm-warming). 

Thanks for pointing this out Chuck... very interesting...that at the subsurface we actually have a modoki nino SST profile...and we have a VERY midoki nino pattern.  That is an interesting concurrence.  

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3 hours ago, Bob Chill said:

Gfs has a southern stream type storm and track in the east but tracks first through Manitoba, Des Moines, St Louie. Not much of a jump/redevelop at all either. Not saying anything is impossible but when I can't recall a reasonable similar scenario at any time in the past, my doubt meter spikes. 

That type of synoptic setup happened several times in the 1950's 60s and 70s but has not been common at all since.   And definitely with you on the skepticism of that look.  Not sure what happened that long ago is really relevant to what is likely in today's climate.  But I suppose it means it's not "meteorologically impossible" as someone likes to say...but maybe just more "meteorologically improbable"  

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13 minutes ago, StormchaserChuck! said:

We are heading into El Nino, it looks like

TAO_5Day_EQ_xz.thumb.gif.91f633deb251e24952e2566674b56bc8.gif

I showed you the counter example, 1987-88 where the cold subsurface water during El Nino gave us a lot of southern jet High pressures. I think the warm bubble in the subsurface won't last past April-May, but it does directly correlate to +PNA conditions directly(when 165W-135W is warm-warming). 

Date Tahiti (hPa) Darwin (hPa) Daily Contribution 30 day Av. SOI 90 day Av. SOI
11 Jan 2022 1011.99 1008.45 -5.04 6.46 8.80
10 Jan 2022 1007.84 1008.35 -24.11 7.04 9.02
9 Jan 2022 1007.02 1008.30 -27.74 8.33 9.43
8 Jan 2022 1008.45 1008.65 -22.65 9.56 9.77
7 Jan 2022 1011.09 1008.10 -7.63 10.53 9.97

 

 

 

download.png.6b660aec96f1f384da425f402e802c2f.png

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2 minutes ago, Ji said:
15 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:
I know people hate our typical warm Christmas but having a cold pattern set in early January is perfect to maximize our snowfall opportunities.  

Why cant it start on dec 23?

I don't know...but there has been 2 very distinct "pattern flip" trigger points to the US winter patterns over the last 30 years or so.  One is in November and the other just after xmas.  We have had plenty of cold/snowy patterns early but they tend to wane and expire just before xmas.  And we have had many colder periods start just after xmas.  For whatever reason xmas itself seems to fall in a dead zone.  Whether that is just really bad luck or there is some legitimate causality out there to my anecdotal observations I don't know.  

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23 minutes ago, frd said:

 

For sure,  lots of cold and active. Even Walt Drag is excited and the super long range modeling keeps extending the winter pattern. 

A slight digression, but as a kid growing up in southern New England, Walt Drag's AFDs were a winter highlight.

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22 minutes ago, StormchaserChuck! said:

We are heading into El Nino, it looks like

TAO_5Day_EQ_xz.thumb.gif.91f633deb251e24952e2566674b56bc8.gif

I showed you the counter example, 1987-88 where the cold subsurface water during El Nino gave us a lot of southern jet High pressures. I think the warm bubble in the subsurface won't last past April-May, but it does directly correlate to +PNA conditions directly(when 165W-135W is warm-warming). 

If we are, then it's about damn time. Our last El Niño was 6 years ago. We are due. 

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