Dec. 10-11 Severe Weather

[andyhb]

Just now, WVU said:

This is from someone who has claimed that the NWS has outsourced their surveys. That is patently false. 

Now that we have got that out of the way...I can't answer those questions. I wasn't at those surveys. So yes...I am dodging his questions. How can I know the answers not being there. You haven't done a survey (obviously since you didn't even know that the NWS is the only entity that does surveys). Just call the WCM's from the contact link I posted. Contact Tim Marshall. That's the best I can do.

You just said the survey was thorough.

[WVU]

8 minutes ago, andyhb said:

My point is how am I supposed to formulate a questioning with one of these folks over one rating or another when there are no damage indicators given in the first place? Like, that's a dead end.

You showed me the pictures. Talk with them and send them the pictures. They have the damage indicators that they used. It would be easy to for them to pull those up. 

Everything you have posted here for the last hour and your tweets you can talk with them about. Why is that so difficult? It seems easy enough to do.

[andyhb]

Just now, WVU said:

You showed me the pictures. Talk with them and send them the pictures. They have the damage indicators that they used. It would be easy to for them to pull those up. 

Everything you have posted here for the last hour and your tweets you can talk with them about. Why is that so difficult? It seems easy enough to do.

Because you're the one that came in here guns ablazing saying everyone else was wrong.

In fact, I do mean to talk with some of these people about this, not to mention I'd like to take part in surveys in the future.

[WVU]

3 minutes ago, andyhb said:

You just said the survey was thorough.

You got me. Satisfied? I know all you want to do is argue for the hell of it.

I know the KY one was thorough since I contacted Tim about it. If I can contact Tim so can you. The others I haven't talked with Rick or Mark about. But they have a stellar reputation.

Why haven't you applied for the NWS? There are about 30 openings the last time I checked. You would make a hell of alot more money than you do now. Plus you would get the operational experience that you do not have.

FYI...You are supporting someone who has said that the NWS has outsourced their surveys. I really truly hope you don't believe that.

[WVU]

3 minutes ago, andyhb said:

Because you're the one that came in here guns ablazing saying everyone else was wrong.

In fact, I do mean to talk with some of these people about this, not to mention I'd like to take part in surveys in the future.

The only things I said and was certain about was that the NWS has not outsourced their surveys and that the KY survey was thorough because Tim Marshall reviewed it. If you don't know Tim Marshall just google him.

[andyhb]

Just now, WVU said:

You got me. Satisfied? I know all you want to do is argue for the hell of it.

I know the KY one was thorough since I contacted Tim about it. If I can contact Tim so can you. The others I haven't talked with Rick or Mark about. But they have a stellar reputation.

Why haven't you applied for the NWS? There are about 30 openings the last time I checked. You would make a hell of alot more money than you do now. Plus you would get the operational experience that you do not have.

FYI...You are supporting someone who has said that the NWS has outsourced their surveys. I really truly hope you don't believe that.

What?  You're the one who came in here with like 5 straight quote tweets trying to start a ruckus, give me a break.

I'm not even supporting his points, I'm debunking yours. Also, my career is my business, thank you very much. It'd be a little difficult for me to get a government job being a Canadian citizen and given the current status of applying for citizenship.

[WVU]

Just now, andyhb said:

What?  You're the one who came in here with like 5 straight quote tweets trying to start a ruckus, give me a break.

I'm not even supporting his points, I'm debunking yours. Also, my career is my business, thank you very much. It'd be a little difficult for me to get a government job being a Canadian citizen and given the current status of applying for citizenship.

Let's see...I came on here with zero quote tweets. I copied and pasted what Tim Marshall messaged me. That's it. But if you came on here saying I did five quote tweets show me. 

What points have I made are you are debunking. That the NWS doesn't outsource their surveys? That I can't talk for Rick, Mark or Tim? Or that Tim Marshall isn't an acknowledged expert so if he said that the KY survey is an EF4 then I believe him? That you do not have the expertise in doing storm surveys? 

[Buckeye05]

49 minutes ago, WVU said:

Read again what I wrote.

I'm not speaking for them. Your trying to prove your points to me...someone who was not involved in any of those surveys that you mentioned. I have repeatedly said I can't give you an answer since I was there or reviewed the surveys. You disagree with the surveys. Fine.

I have repeatedly said for you to call them and talk about those surveys. That is not speaking for them. Not once have I said I agree or disagree with the surveys in OK or TX. Just the one in KY since I know Tim was involved and I know Tim and his background.  Rick, Mark and Tim can do just fine speaking for themselves. Just call them. Easy as that. 

Tim Marshall failed to survey or address multiple areas of potential EF5 damage in Vilonia, AR, and instead tried to put the issue to rest by only addressing all the slabbed, cut-nailed cookie cutter homes in the Sherwood Meadows subdivision as if that was the main area in question, when it wasn’t, and as if the general public didn’t understand the concept of poor construction. In fact, only one of the areas in question (E Wicker St) was addressed by the LZK survey, and the reasons given to keep it below the EF5 threshold were not valid (purported debris loading but with no traceable object in question striking the house, “inconsistent” tree damage that was a full 100 yards away from the house in question, and straight-nailing, even though several of the EF5 rated homes after Moore 2013 were straight nailed, and even though well-respected NWS damage surveyor Kiel Ortega established that single family homes with straight-nailed wall studs are still eligible for an EF5 rating given enough contextual support, within his survey of Moore 2013.) That E Wicker house had extensive, above and beyond anchoring of its exterior and interior walls too. The contextual damage was remarkable too. The reasons given, were more like excuses when you compare them to precedents set by previous EF5 events, and when compared to published guidelines given by Marshall himself on the subject of distinguishing EF4 from EF5 damage.

The rest of the areas in question (S Coker Rd, Cemetery St, and Fish Hooks Restaurant) were completely omitted from not only Tim Marshall’s survey, but the LZK survey team. Don’t believe me? Look yourself. At least one resident who’s extensively anchored, modern home was completely slabbed, did confirm that neither the NWS survey team or any other survey team stopped by his property. They got skipped, along with other areas of the path. Those areas contained likely EF5 damage. These are facts, whether you want to believe them or not, and there are reasons why having unwavering faith in these people is a misinformed point of view. 
 

Bottom line, questionable practices are rampant when it comes surveys and ratings, and if you don’t see that, it’s because you aren’t taking a hard, objective look at the more controversial cases, and you aren’t aware of a lot of troubling information, and I can say that with a high degree of certainty.

[andyhb]

Just now, WVU said:

Let's see...I came on here with zero quote tweets. I copied and pasted what Tim Marshall messaged me. That's it. But if you came on here saying I did five quote tweets show me. 

What points have I made are you are debunking. That the NWS doesn't outsource their surveys? That I can't talk for Rick, Mark or Tim? Or that Tim Marshall isn't an acknowledged expert so if he said that the KY survey is an EF4 then I believe him? That you do not have the expertise in doing storm surveys? 

You came in with 4-5 consecutive quotes of previous posters saying they were wrong or some snarky reference to NWS, excuse the use of "quote tweet" as an eponym.

I'm debunking your insistence that the Mayfield survey was thorough and you referring me to various people, who I would indeed have more questions for. You keep saying you've been on multiple surveys and yet I don't really get that impression.

Not only that, but you taking shots at my career is a pretty pathetic attempt at ad hominem, which last I checked, I have not used against you.

[Buckeye05]

Also yeah, I wasn’t right about the extent of influence that engineering firms have on surveys, but I guess that invalidates all the other verifiable information I provided regarding other questionable surveys. 

I do know that according to NWS Louisville, that engineers assisted with the recent Bowling Green survey, and when that WFO was asked a valid question about why an anchored DOD 10 residence was given an EF2 rating (which is below the lower-bound for that DI, and is technically breaking the guidelines set in place by the scale), they just said that this is likely the conclusion engineers that were consulted to assist with the survey came to, with no further explanation, as if it was out of their hands. That isn’t going to sit well with some people. But yeah, I’ll admit when I’m wrong. I can see you being able to do the same is struggle though. 

[WVU]

6 minutes ago, Buckeye05 said:

Tim Marshall failed to survey or address multiple areas of potential EF5 damage in Vilonia, AR, and instead tried to put the issue to rest by only addressing all the slabbed, cut-nailed cookie cutter homes in the Sherwood Meadows subdivision as if that was the main area in question, when it wasn’t, and as if the general public didn’t understand the concept of poor construction. In fact, only one of the areas in question (E Wicker St) was addressed by the LZK survey, and the reasons given to keep it below the EF5 threshold were not valid (purported debris loading but with no traceable object in question striking the house, “inconsistent” tree damage that was a full 100 yards away from the house in question, and straight-nailing, even though several of the EF5 rated homes after Moore 2013 were straight nailed, and even though we’ll-respected damage surveyor Kiel Ortega established that single family homes with straight-nailed wall studs are still eligible for an EF5 rating given enough contextual support, within his survey of Moore 2013.) That E Wicker house had extensive, above and beyond anchoring of its exterior and interior walls too. The contextual damage was remarkable too. The reasons given, were more like excuses when you compare them to precedents set by previous EF5 events, and when compared to published guidelines given by Marshall himself on the subject of distinguishing EF4 from EF5 damage.

The rest of the areas in question (S Coker Rd, Cemetery St, and Fish Hooks Restaurant) were completely omitted from not only Tim Marshall’s survey, but the LZK survey team. Don’t believe me? Look yourself. At least one resident who’s extensively anchored, modern home was completely slabbed, did confirm that neither the NWS survey team or any other survey team stopped by his property. They got skipped, along with other areas of the path. Those areas contained likely EF5 damage. These are facts, whether you want to believe them or not, and there are reasons why having unwavering faith in these people is a misinformed point of view. 
 

Bottom line, questionable practices are rampant when it comes surveys and ratings, and if you don’t see that, it’s because you aren’t taking a hard, objective look at the more controversial cases, and you aren’t aware of a lot of troubling information, and I can say that with a high degree of certainty.

Let me remind you that you said with a high degree of certainty that the NWS outsources their surveys which is false. 

If you disagree with Tim don't come to me about it. I can't help you one way or another there. I have no opinion one way or the other since I didn't do the survey. You have your points of disagreement with Tim. You believe you have valid points. Just message Tim about them. He is good about getting back to people. He won't be intimated by your points.  He might agree with some or all of your points. He is not afraid to admit he is wrong when he has proof. I know Tim.

Check this out...https://www.weather.gov/oun/efscale. If you want to go thru the 95 page PDF on how they developed the EF scale more power to you. Just have alot of coffee on hand.

[Buckeye05]

1 minute ago, WVU said:

Let me remind you that you said with a high degree of certainty that the NWS outsources their surveys which is false. 

If you disagree with Tim don't come to me about it. I can't help you one way or another there. I have no opinion one way or the other since I didn't do the survey. You have your points of disagreement with Tim. You believe you have valid points. Just message Tim about them. He is good about getting back to people. He won't be intimated by your points.  He might agree with some or all of your points. He is not afraid to admit he is wrong when he has proof. I know Tim.

Check this out...https://www.weather.gov/oun/efscale. If you want to go thru the 95 page PDF on how they developed the EF scale more power to you. Just have alot of coffee on hand.

When asked about Vilonia, all Tim will say is that he didn’t survey those houses in question. No further elaboration. That is not good enough. You’re referring me to someone who’s answer is “idk”, just so you’re aware. You’re acting like he’s this all-knowing authority (which I once believed too, to be fair), and he’s just not when you apply objective scrutiny to some of his work, such as Vilonia and the recent Kentucky tornado.
 

Outsourcing? Nah. Over-utilization of a strictly engineering approach? Absolutely. Not going down the way I initially said, but essentially the same end result. But yeah keep clinging to that one thing I got wrong, while disregarding all the highly troubling, verifiable information that I provided. How can you justify the strength of your belief in WFO survey teams and people like Marshall, when things like Vilonia happen? I think it’s because you’re not aware. 
 

I encourage you to actually take a look at cases like Vilonia yourself, instead of immediately defaulting to the word of people who claim to have dismissed the concerns. 

[WVU]

6 minutes ago, Buckeye05 said:

Also yeah, I wasn’t right about the extent of influence that engineering firms have on surveys, but I guess that invalidates all the other verifiable information I provided regarding other questionable surveys. 

I do know that according to NWS Louisville, that engineers assisted with the recent Bowling Green survey, and when that WFO was asked a valid question about why an anchored DOD 10 residence was given an EF2 rating (which is below the lower-bound for that DI, and is technically breaking the guidelines set in place by the scale), they just said that this is likely the conclusion engineers that were consulted to assist with the survey came to, with no further explanation, as if it was out of their hands. That isn’t going to sit well with some people. But yeah, I’ll admit when I’m wrong. I can see you being able to do the same is struggle though. 

Not at all. I have said numerable times that I do not have the answers. How am I wrong by saying that? If I said I had the answers about those other surveys than I would be wrong. I don't have the answers which I said many times on here. I said contact those who did the surveys (and reviewed them). Am I wrong about that? The only survey I am confident about is the one that Tim reviewed and messaged me on. Message Tim if you do not agree with him. He will get back to you.

You said this..."I guess that invalidates all the other verifiable information I provided regarding other questionable surveys." Where did I say that invalidates your other information? I didn't. And I won't. That is your opinion and I do not have the information to refute or agree with you. All I said is to contact the NWS people who have done those surveys. Call and talk with them. I gave the contact link earlier. You have a much better chance getting the answers from them than anyone here (including me). 

[WVU]

1 minute ago, Buckeye05 said:

When asked about Vilonia, all Tim will say is that he didn’t survey those houses in question. No further elaboration. That is not good enough. You’re referring me to someone who’s answer is “idk”, just so you’re aware. You’re acting like he’s this all-knowing authority (which I once believed too, to be fair), and he’s just not when you apply objective scrutiny to some of his work, such as Vilonia and the recent Kentucky tornado.
 

Outsourcing? Nah. Over-utilization of a strictly engineering approach? Absolutely. Not going down the way I initially said, but essentially the same end result. But yeah keep clinging to that one thing I got wrong, while disregarding all the highly troubling, verifiable information that I provided. How can you justify the strength of your belief in WFO survey teams and people like Marshall, when things like Vilonia happen? I think it’s because you’re not aware. 
 

I encourage you to actually take a look at cases like Vilonia yourself, instead of immediately defaulting to the word of people who claim to have dismissed the concerns. 

I can take a look at all the surveys. But it doesn't mean anything since I wasn't there. 

Show me where I have disregarded the information you provided. You can't because I haven't. 

You are saying this..."When asked about Vilonia, all Tim will say is that he didn’t survey those houses in question. No further elaboration. That is not good enough. You’re referring me to someone who’s answer is “idk”, just so you’re aware. You’re acting like he’s this all-knowing authority (which I once believed too, to be fair), and he’s just not when you apply objective scrutiny to some of his work, such as Vilonia and the recent Kentucky tornado."

Be fair now. All I'm asking you to do is message him. How can that hurt? It will take you five minutes. If he blows you off then you have your answer. If he is evasive then you can question him further or just accept it. As much of an expert I know he is he isn't perfect. If you bring your points to him at least you will have an answer one way or another. I can't predict what he would say and I know him.

[MidwestChaser]

This guy's a troll.

[WVU]

47 minutes ago, andyhb said:

You came in with 4-5 consecutive quotes of previous posters saying they were wrong or some snarky reference to NWS, excuse the use of "quote tweet" as an eponym.

I'm debunking your insistence that the Mayfield survey was thorough and you referring me to various people, who I would indeed have more questions for. You keep saying you've been on multiple surveys and yet I don't really get that impression.

Not only that, but you taking shots at my career is a pretty pathetic attempt at ad hominem, which last I checked, I have not used against you.

Asking someone to contact the folks that did the surveys is a "snarky reference"?

How have I taken any shots at your career? I have said repeatedly that OU is a great university for meteorology...especially severe wx research. I have not said anything negative at all about OU. Suggesting that you apply for the NWS is not taking a shot at your career. It would give you survey experience is what I said. I never denigrated your career choice. I gave you an option.  If you took that wrong it's on you not me.

What makes you not get the impression that I haven't been on multiple surveys? 

[WVU]

3 minutes ago, MidwestChaser said:

This guy's a troll.

Do you feel better now?

[Buckeye05]

2 minutes ago, WVU said:

I can take a look at all the surveys. But it doesn't mean anything since I wasn't there. 

Show me where I have disregarded the information you provided. You can't because I haven't. 

You are saying this..."When asked about Vilonia, all Tim will say is that he didn’t survey those houses in question. No further elaboration. That is not good enough. You’re referring me to someone who’s answer is “idk”, just so you’re aware. You’re acting like he’s this all-knowing authority (which I once believed too, to be fair), and he’s just not when you apply objective scrutiny to some of his work, such as Vilonia and the recent Kentucky tornado."

Be fair now. All I'm asking you to do is message him. How can that hurt? It will take you five minutes. If he blows you off then you have your answer. If he is evasive then you can question him further or just accept it. As much of an expert I know he is he isn't perfect. If you bring your points to him at least you will have an answer one way or another. I can't predict what he would say and I know him.

Sure, I'll do it. But what I am saying is that other people who have tried to contact him about that particular event either get stonewalled, or dismissed with a brief reply saying that he is not privy to information regarding the areas of potential EF5 house damage in Vilonia. I don't see why me contacting him would yield a different result. 

But, yeah for the sake of thoroughness I will send him an email. 

[Buckeye05]

5 minutes ago, MidwestChaser said:

This guy's a troll.

Nah, he believes in what he is saying. It doesn't hold much water, but I think it's coming from a place of sincerity though.

[andyhb]

1 hour ago, WVU said:

You got me. Satisfied? I know all you want to do is argue for the hell of it.

I know the KY one was thorough since I contacted Tim about it. If I can contact Tim so can you. The others I haven't talked with Rick or Mark about. But they have a stellar reputation.

Why haven't you applied for the NWS? There are about 30 openings the last time I checked. You would make a hell of alot more money than you do now. Plus you would get the operational experience that you do not have.

FYI...You are supporting someone who has said that the NWS has outsourced their surveys. I really truly hope you don't believe that.

1 minute ago, WVU said:

How have I taken any shots at your career? I have said repeatedly that OU is a great university for meteorology...especially severe wx research. I have not said anything negative at all about OU. Suggesting that you apply for the NWS is not taking a shot at your career. It would give you survey experience is what I said. I never denigrated your career choice. I gave you an option.  If you took that wrong it's on you not me.

What makes you not get the impression that I haven't been on multiple surveys? 

Are you acting like I am somehow unaware of this information? Plus lol @ the money thing.

I get the impression that you haven't been on surveys since you seem to be unable to actually respond to my points or questions and instead keep referring me or anyone else to Tim Marshall, Mark Fox, or Rick Smith. If you knew these things, you'd be able to answer at least some of them, even if this was not a tornado that you surveyed.

[brianc33710]

7 hours ago, WVU said:

I might of answered this earlier if so I apologize. 

The biggest single issue/question for us focused on Obion County, TN...was there a break in the path, or was it in fact a single continuous track that would have broken the record?  Alas, as of now it appears enough of a break to go with separate tracks.

This was a bit further back in the thread, but I had used the 2011 Tuscaloosa-Birmingham Tornado as an example of a tornado thought to be on the ground 100s of miles only to find it very briefly cycled over NE Bham. Had it not cycled my Dad's & Aunts house would've been badly damaged if not completely destroyed. The twister lifted near Tarrant & dropped a new EF4 once the supercell reached Center Point. 

[WVU]

2 hours ago, Buckeye05 said:

Sure, I'll do it. But what I am saying is that other people who have tried to contact him about that particular event either get stonewalled, or dismissed with a brief reply saying that he is not privy to information regarding the areas of potential EF5 house damage in Vilonia. I don't see why me contacting him would yield a different result. 

But, yeah for the sake of thoroughness I will send him an email. 

Okay...that's great. You can also email the WCM in Little Rock...Dennis Cavanaugh at [email protected]. I do not remember if he was the WCM there in 2014. People move often in the NWS. It's tough to keep track. In my 25 year career in the NWS I've been to six locations. With some folks it is easier to put their picture on the Post Office wall to find them!

Can you send a private message on here? If so...please let me know what he says. I am very curious...your information has certainly peaked my curiosity. If he doesn't answer you or leaves you with a vague answer I'll ask him or the WCM Dennis Cavanaugh about it.

If you really want change in how the NWS does surveys other than contacting Dennis, Rick Smith, or Mark Fox I would also contact Tanya Fransen (she is in the Glasgow MT office). If there is a person in the NWS that has influence and can get stuff done Tanya is the person. Tanya is awesome and is very active in the AMS.

[WVU]

1 hour ago, andyhb said:

Are you acting like I am somehow unaware of this information? Plus lol @ the money thing.

I get the impression that you haven't been on surveys since you seem to be unable to actually respond to my points or questions and instead keep referring me or anyone else to Tim Marshall, Mark Fox, or Rick Smith. If you knew these things, you'd be able to answer at least some of them, even if this was not a tornado that you surveyed.

That is where you are wrong. It is important to understand that I will not in any circumstance critique the people who have done the surveys. That would not be professional. Just like they won't critique me on my surveys. If they look at my surveys and have questions they would do it in private via a call or an email. Just like I would to them. It's professional courtesy. We're not out to "get each other". That absolutely serves no purpose. We have a common goal which is public service. Which is important in our field and in the NWS.

[WVU]

59 minutes ago, brianc33710 said:

This was a bit further back in the thread, but I had used the 2011 Tuscaloosa-Birmingham Tornado as an example of a tornado thought to be on the ground 100s of miles only to find it very briefly cycled over NE Bham. Had it not cycled my Dad's & Aunts house would've been badly damaged if not completely destroyed. The twister lifted near Tarrant & dropped a new EF4 once the supercell reached Center Point. 

I am very glad that your Dad and Aunt were safe. There is enough tragedy to go around. 

[andyhb]

18 minutes ago, WVU said:

That is where you are wrong. It is important to understand that I will not in any circumstance critique the people who have done the surveys. That would not be professional. Just like they won't critique me on my surveys. If they look at my surveys and have questions they would do it in private via a call or an email. Just like I would to them. It's professional courtesy. We're not out to "get each other". That absolutely serves no purpose. We have a common goal which is public service. Which is important in our field and in the NWS.

Who says anyone is out to get each other? It's this attitude and pushback that "such things should not be criticized" that gets a lot of people annoyed.

I also see the "who cares what the rating is" thrown around a lot. Well, it turns out, that isn't as trivial as it may seem!

[WVU]

10 minutes ago, andyhb said:

Who says anyone is out to get each other? It's this attitude and pushback that "such things should not be criticized" that gets a lot of people annoyed.

I also see the "who cares what the rating is" thrown around a lot. Well, it turns out, that isn't as trivial as it may seem!

If my attitude annoys people so be it. That's their problem not mine. 

Maybe I should have been clearer. I will not criticize anyone in the NWS. It's professional courtesy and that's how I do things with my peers. If I didn't agree with your Masters thesis I wouldn't put you on blast in public. I would try to find a way to email you in private. If I have a problem with other WCM's I'll call or email them. Which is why I keep on suggesting that folks who have a problem with the rating of a tornado (or anything else NWS related) contact the local WCM or MIC. In most offices the SOO doesn't get involved.

I agree...it is important to get the rating correct. We sure spend a hell of alot of time training and trying to be correct so it is important to us (as in the NWS). It isn't trivial at all. By no means are we perfect. But we do our best.

[andyhb]

3 minutes ago, WVU said:

If my attitude annoys people so be it. That's their problem not mine. 

Maybe I should have been clearer. I will not criticize anyone in the NWS. It's professional courtesy and that's how I do things with my peers. If I didn't agree with your Masters thesis I wouldn't put you on blast in public. I would try to find a way to email you in private. If I have a problem with other WCM's I'll call or email them. Which is why I keep on suggesting that folks who have a problem with the rating of a tornado (or anything else NWS related) contact the local WCM or MIC. In most offices the SOO doesn't get involved.

I agree...it is important to get the rating correct. We sure spend a hell of alot of time training and trying to be correct so it is important to us (as in the NWS). It isn't trivial at all. By no means are we perfect. But we do our best.

You don't need to lecture me about professional courtesy, either. That's why I made that Twitter thread in the first place.

The problem is that despite people doing their best to contact others both privately and publicly in the know, very little has actually changed since the Vilonia tornado. Your assumption that other people haven't tried to actually raise these issues to those who know more is off base. Furthermore, with something like the Vilonia tornado, John Robinson, who was the WCM at the time, has clearly made his position on the matter clear via the media.

[Buckeye05]

29 minutes ago, WVU said:

Okay...that's great. You can also email the WCM in Little Rock...Dennis Cavanaugh at [email protected]. I do not remember if he was the WCM there in 2014. People move often in the NWS.

Can you send a private message on here? If so...please let me know what he says. I am very curious...your information has certainly peaked my curiosity. If he doesn't answer you or leaves you with a vague answer I'll ask him or the WCM Dennis Cavanaugh about it.

If you really want change in how the NWS does surveys other than contacting Dennis, Rick Smith, or Mark Fox I would also contact Tanya Fransen (she is in the Glasgow MT office). If there is a person in the NWS that has influence and can get stuff done Tanya is the person. Tanya is awesome and is very active in the AMS.

The lead surveyor for LZK Vilonia survey was a guy named John Robinson, and he has since retired, so I don't think Cavanaugh would have much to say about it. Plus, LZK has caught a ridiculous amount of flak over the years from angry weather geeks bashing and criticizing them over that rating. I'm sure that any email containing the words "Vilonia" that shows up in an inbox at that particular WFO, is gonna go right into the deleted folder.

But anyway, it would be more productive talking to a brick wall than it would be talking to Robinson about this, as he has strongly insinuated in interviews that he does not believe in applying EF5 ratings to houses. It's suspected by some that the botched results of the Vilonia survey occurred as a result of Robinson perpetuating his highly skewed interpretation of the EF scale into actual practice. I will DM and give you a run-down of that whole debacle, as it seems you are just now learning about the infamous Vilonia survey. It's truly astonishing how bad they failed at documenting the first true instance of EF5 damage within the state of Arkansas.

[Stebo]

I have been on a couple surveys myself and know that these offices are not staffed enough right now to thoroughly do these surveys. It's just a fact that they don't have the time available. So it is entirely possible that corners were cut, not on purpose obviously. I respect other NWS mets but they are human at the end of the day as well. 

[WVU]

4 minutes ago, andyhb said:

You don't need to lecture me about professional courtesy, either. That's why I made that Twitter thread in the first place.

The problem is that despite people doing their best to contact others both privately and publicly in the know, very little has actually changed since the Vilonia tornado. Your assumption that other people haven't tried to actually raise these issues to those who know more is off base. Furthermore, with something like the Vilonia tornado, John Robinson, who was the WCM at the time, has clearly made his position on the matter clear via the media.

Then I assumed wrong.

Commenting to the media is always tricky. That's why for the most part we leave it up to NOAA/NWS Public Affairs. 

I don't know John personally. If he is the person I am thinking of he works in NWSHQ in the Office of Marine and Aviation Operations.