ChescoWx Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 1 hour ago, LVwxHistorian said: These are 20" differences over a season, I'm talking 20" differences for a storm!! And that map doesn't show the line going through Coatesville since Coatesville isn't labeled on it. Well since neither Chesco nor anyone else has been able to address any of these besides vague statements of banding and elevation, I think I have a really good argument to NCEI. And just so you don't think I'm a hack, I'm a master's student in ATMO at U of Arizona. Good stuff!! really enjoying the research - I have also forwarded all the corroborating data to NCEI - plus still finding even more examples- plenty of food for thought for them!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 5, 2021 Author Share Posted December 5, 2021 40 minutes ago, ChescoWx said: Good stuff!! really enjoying the research - I have also forwarded all the corroborating data to NCEI - plus still finding even more examples- plenty of food for thought for them!! For sure! I have nothing personal against these records -- I'm not trying to take the record away and give it to another location that I have a special affinity for! I just like to know the truth. If we had just accepted numbers without investigating then the 24-hour snowfall record would now be the 77 inches at Montague, NY in January 1997, which is why I asked how often you measure snowfall. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChescoWx Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 2 hours ago, LVwxHistorian said: For sure! I have nothing personal against these records -- I'm not trying to take the record away and give it to another location that I have a special affinity for! I just like to know the truth. If we had just accepted numbers without investigating then the 24-hour snowfall record would now be the 77 inches at Montague, NY in January 1997, which is why I asked how often you measure snowfall. I am sure there will be no changes to any records....not after 120 years! These records have stood the test of time!! I see KS reported 32" in the Feb 1899 storm - 2ft...3 ft either way a lot of snow fell in the county with typical large variability in individual storms as I have shown in the research 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TugHillMatt Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 Interesting conversation! As somebody who spent the first 20 years of my life visiting my grandparents in Brandywine, right off of 82 (just north of 30 Bypass), I can provide experience as well. From Gap over to the area north of Coatesville, there was almost always more snow than anywhere else in the area. I think there's some orographic lift that occurs there from different wind directions during events. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChescoWx Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 1 hour ago, TugHillMatt said: Interesting conversation! As somebody who spent the first 20 years of my life visiting my grandparents in Brandywine, right off of 82 (just north of 30 Bypass), I can provide experience as well. From Gap over to the area north of Coatesville, there was almost always more snow than anywhere else in the area. I think there's some orographic lift that occurs there from different wind directions during events. Hi Matt - no doubt there is orographic lift that occurs which is why the western burbs report and average more snow than many areas further north. Folks can argue about snow totals but subtle changes of elevation and banding/convective elements in individual storms can make huge differences. So difficult to try and go back and rewrite history even 10 years after the fact....100 years later forget about it..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TugHillMatt Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, ChescoWx said: Hi Matt - no doubt there is orographic lift that occurs which is why the western burbs report and average more snow than many areas further north. Folks can argue about snow totals but subtle changes of elevation and banding/convective elements in individual storms can make huge differences. So difficult to try and go back and rewrite history even 10 years after the fact....100 years later forget about it..... I grew up in Lancaster county. There were several times during my childhood where I (western Lanco) would get an inch from an East Coast storm, while the banding set up and trained over an area from Welsh Mountain (outside of New Holland) to Honey Brook to Gap and over to the Coatesville area and dumped a foot on them. All the moisture from the very outskirts of those east coast storms that were farther out would just dump on that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 5, 2021 Author Share Posted December 5, 2021 2 hours ago, TugHillMatt said: Interesting conversation! As somebody who spent the first 20 years of my life visiting my grandparents in Brandywine, right off of 82 (just north of 30 Bypass), I can provide experience as well. From Gap over to the area north of Coatesville, there was almost always more snow than anywhere else in the area. I think there's some orographic lift that occurs there from different wind directions during events. If you haven't looked at the data, you really shouldn't comment at all!! Cause then your'e just talking out of your youKnowWHat! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TugHillMatt Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 1 minute ago, LVwxHistorian said: If you haven't looked at the data, you really shouldn't comment at all!! Um, wow. Don't be a prick Philadelphian. I am allowed to comment and share my experiences. It wasn't a personal attack or anything on you. Take a Xanax, pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 5, 2021 Author Share Posted December 5, 2021 Just now, TugHillMatt said: Um, wow. Don't be a prick Philadelphian. I am allowed to comment and share my experiences. It wasn't a personal attack or anything on you. Take a Xanax, pal. Your talking 40 miles, I'm talking 10. Your talking 10" I'm talking 20"!!! Apples and oranges man!! Just go out and enjoy and the lake effect and don't trouble your pretty head with something you don't understand!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TugHillMatt Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 Just now, LVwxHistorian said: Your talking 40 miles, I'm talking 10. Your talking 10" I'm talking 20"!!! Apples and oranges man!! Just go out and enjoy and the lake effect and don't trouble your pretty head with something you don't understand!! Clearly you do... "rolls eyes".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 5, 2021 Author Share Posted December 5, 2021 1 minute ago, TugHillMatt said: Clearly you do... "rolls eyes".... And I'm from Allentown. you guys are too dumb to see what's right in front of you that's why Chesco can't directly refute even 1 event!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TugHillMatt Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said: And I'm from Allentown. you guys are too dumb to see what's right in front of you that's why Chesco can't directly refute even 1 event!! Nah, probably just not interested in arguing with an obvious pompous individual who has no ability for enjoyable, tactful discussion with others on a weather forum. Now, go back to your history books...and maybe you could find some joy in those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamuSnow Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 27 minutes ago, TugHillMatt said: Um, wow. Don't be a prick Philadelphian. I am allowed to comment and share my experiences. It wasn't a personal attack or anything on you. Take a Xanax, pal. Lol...hey Matt, as an honorary Prick Philadelphian, I say feel free to stop by and comment anytime, on any subject. And thanks for the meaningful commentary on this topic! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TugHillMatt Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 22 minutes ago, KamuSnow said: Lol...hey Matt, as an honorary Prick Philadelphian, I say feel free to stop by and comment anytime, on any subject. And thanks for the meaningful commentary on this topic! Thanks for the welcome and comment! I honestly didn't expect such an intense, rude response to what I thought was casual discussion about snowfall. lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 5, 2021 Author Share Posted December 5, 2021 44 minutes ago, TugHillMatt said: Nah, probably just not interested in arguing with an obvious pompous individual who has no ability for enjoyable, tactful discussion with others on a weather forum. Now, go back to your history books...and maybe you could find some joy in those? So I did the next best thing and got on Newspapers.com but Coatesville is such a little hick nothing town that they don't even have their own old paper and are rarely mentioned in other papers except when they report their newest instance of remarkable incest and/or bestiality/necrophilia!!! LOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGorse Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 1 hour ago, TugHillMatt said: I honestly didn't expect such an intense, rude response to what I thought was casual discussion about snowfall. lol He is very passionate about snow totals! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 2 hours ago, MGorse said: He is very passionate about snow totals! LOL, I'm just kidding around! but I think I have strong case to NCEI and I've already made the case here 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birds~69 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 24 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said: LOL, I'm just kidding around! but I think I have strong case to NCEI and I've already made the case here I don't think you are....you seem pretty obsessed w/this. I only give a crap (and even then not really) from when I was alive and remember the snowfall. So from 1976 on I remember big snowfalls but to give a shit about 100+yr old storms is kinda nutty. You may need help... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChescoWx Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 LVwxHistorian certainly is far from civil....at the very least seems to like to insult folks. Fortunately he is an outlier from the typical respectful conversations we typically have here! It really is quite easy to have a fact based discussion which is all I provide to support the data. I have validated with surrounding data as good as we can find that the long standing records have stood the test of time for a reason. We cannot find enough data to overturn so we shall stick with the records as currently documented by long standing weather service/bureau observers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Wiggum Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 14 hours ago, TugHillMatt said: Nah, probably just not interested in arguing with an obvious pompous individual who has no ability for enjoyable, tactful discussion with others on a weather forum. Now, go back to your history books...and maybe you could find some joy in those? Welcome to the Philly forum where no one likes us and we don't care! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 On 12/4/2021 at 1:52 PM, ChescoWx said: Also maybe we should look at why Coatesville's observer Mr Gordon only reported 51.4" of snow in 1895 while West Chester reported a whopping 79.4" - LOL!! The variations are just too great to try and question long standing historical observations! 1895? The year? Also I'll admit that this guy's observations may make more sense if he was at a significantly higher elevation, maybe 700 to 900 feet outside of the town but even then it's hard to believe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChescoWx Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 To really illustrate the incredible variability in snow totals over very short distances. .I went back and captured just a few of some recent events and the approximate distance between reporting sites - using only final storm event NWS PNS reports from official observing sites and or trained spotters - some examples are 1 foot differences over just 6 short miles Jan 24, 2016 - Malvern PA 30.1" vs. Kennett Square 15.3" (16 miles) (+14.8") Feb 10, 2010 - East Nantmeal 26.8" vs. East Bradford 14.5" (6 miles)(+12.3") Feb 6, 2010 - Chester Springs 24.1" vs. East Nantmeal 18.3" (4.5 miles) (+5.8") vs. ABE Airport (7.7") = 16.4" December 30, 2000 - PHL 9" vs Glenmoore PA 1" - (28 miles) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGorse Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 17 hours ago, LVwxHistorian said: LOL, I'm just kidding around! Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 3 hours ago, ChescoWx said: To really illustrate the incredible variability in snow totals over very short distances. .I went back and captured just a few of some recent events and the approximate distance between reporting sites - using only final storm event NWS PNS reports from official observing sites and or trained spotters - some examples are 1 foot differences over just 6 short miles Jan 24, 2016 - Malvern PA 30.1" vs. Kennett Square 15.3" (16 miles) (+14.8") Feb 10, 2010 - East Nantmeal 26.8" vs. East Bradford 14.5" (6 miles)(+12.3") Feb 6, 2010 - Chester Springs 24.1" vs. East Nantmeal 18.3" (4.5 miles) (+5.8") vs. ABE Airport (7.7") = 16.4" December 30, 2000 - PHL 9" vs Glenmoore PA 1" - (28 miles) Since you keep missing the point, I'm gonna spell this out like I was talking to a 4-year or old (or Sean Hannity). From 1894 to 1909, this guy, at one station, reported far and away the highest total EVERY SINGLE TIME. Show me a station since then where that has happened. You can't because there is none!! Yes every storm has a highest value -- but it's NOT ALWAYS AT THE SAME PLACE!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said: Since you keep missing the point, I'm gonna spell this out like I was talking to a 4-year or old (or Sean Hannity). From 1894 to 1909, this guy, at one station, reported far and away the highest total EVERY SINGLE TIME. Show me a station since then where that has happened. You can't because there is none!! Yes every storm has a highest value -- but it's NOT ALWAYS AT THE SAME PLACE!!! MAN, WHAT'S SO HARD ABOUT THIS? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 7, 2021 Author Share Posted December 7, 2021 One thing I can say for sure: If I ever write a book, it won't include this garbage data!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 7, 2021 Author Share Posted December 7, 2021 And what does this mean:?? "Also maybe we should look at why Coatesville's observer Mr Gordon only reported 51.4" of snow in 1895 while West Chester reported a whopping 79.4" " 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChescoWx Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/6/2021 at 6:42 PM, LVwxHistorian said: Since you keep missing the point, I'm gonna spell this out like I was talking to a 4-year or old (or Sean Hannity). From 1894 to 1909, this guy, at one station, reported far and away the highest total EVERY SINGLE TIME. Show me a station since then where that has happened. You can't because there is none!! Yes every storm has a highest value -- but it's NOT ALWAYS AT THE SAME PLACE!!! Facts presented just to keep this real and not let our LVwx post fake facts - I went back and did an analysis of all daily snow totals 1894 to 1909 against just 1 other Chester County station (West Chester) - the facts are Coatesville in reality actually reported LESS daily snow totals compared to West Chester on 70 days during that time frame 1894 to 1909.....last time I checked my math 70 times is not the every single time our LV friend imagined above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChescoWx Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 Not to keep piling on the facts but: From 1894 to 1909 Coatesville averaged 48.0" of snow vs West Chester at 40.3 (+19% difference) For the entire period of record with Mr Gordon as observer (1894 to 1930) - Coatesville averaged 40.8" of snow vs West Chester at 32.3" (+26%) For the entire period of common records (89 years) 1894 to 1982 (prior to the move to the higher elevation) - Coatesville averaged 31.0" vs West Chester at 26.1" (+19%) Yes it does snow more in Coatesville vs. West Chester and for that matter all other long running stations in Chester County Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVwxHistorian Posted December 8, 2021 Author Share Posted December 8, 2021 Which 70 days? Not that it really matters, the guy only wanted to be a ham and have the biggest total in the big storms! He was starved for attention I guess, LOL!! And what's this 1895 you mentioned? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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