Old Crappy Coatesville Snowfall Records!

[LVwxHistorian]

And the Dec. 1909 storm totals were remarkably uniform from Phila and Reading (21"), LV 20 to 24, and central NJ, 21".   

The banding could never have always set up right over this guy's station -- I'm sorry, it's just not possible

[ChescoWx]

Also maybe we should look at why Coatesville's observer Mr Gordon only reported 51.4" of snow in 1895 while West Chester reported a whopping 79.4" - LOL!! The variations are just too great to try and question long standing historical observations!

[LVwxHistorian]

9 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

LV again just to highlight the incredible variability in reported snow totals and highlight how difficult it is to disprove higher totals.

Back in February 2010 - ABE airport reported 42.9" of snow for the month - Here in East Nantmeal Twp in Chester County only 35 miles SW of that spot a NWS trained spotter (me) recorded 62.8"of snow a 20" difference over 30+ miles in 1 month - a 48% variance!

 

I don't see your data in Climatological Data, is it published somewhere?  And it's about 38 miles. 

And Phila had 51.5, much closer to you in amount and distance

 

[ChescoWx]

3 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

I don't see your data in Climatological Data, is it published somewhere?  And it's about 42 miles. 

 

It's on the NWS PNS reports still available on the NWS site https://www.weather.gov/phi/eventsummarymain

Also in nautical or straight miles my station is precisely 35.1 miles from ABE

[ChescoWx]

Now LV to put a fine point on this great discussion

Recent Annual Actual snow reports by NWS Trained observers - East Nantmeal Twp PA (EN) vs West Chester PA (WC) (only 9.1 miles apart) to highlight some years with great variability over less than 10 miles

2017 - EN 34.9" / WC 15.8"

2013 - EN 32.6" / WC  18.8"

2012 - EN 21.3" / WC 11.2"

2010 - EN 72.4" / WC - 53.0"

2007 - EN 29.6" / WC - 13.6"

 

 

[LVwxHistorian]

52 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

Now LV to put a fine point on this great discussion

Recent Annual Actual snow reports by NWS Trained observers - East Nantmeal Twp PA (EN) vs West Chester PA (WC) (only 9.1 miles apart) to highlight some years with great variability over less than 10 miles

2017 - EN 34.9" / WC 15.8"

2013 - EN 32.6" / WC  18.8"

2012 - EN 21.3" / WC 11.2"

2010 - EN 72.4" / WC - 53.0"

2007 - EN 29.6" / WC - 13.6"

 

 

So what you're saying is that you're the reincarnation or relative of this Gordon?! LOL

I understand that farther inland and higher elevation typically get bigger totals, but I'm talking about a specific time period and specific storms where the disparity is monumental, much more than the data you are citing.

And you haven't yet addressed any of these 4 specific amounts yet.

[ChescoWx]

4 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

So what you're saying is that you're the reincarnation or relative of this Gordon?! LOL

I understand that farther inland and higher elevation typically get bigger totals, but I'm talking about a specific time period and specific storms where the disparity is monumental, much more than the data you are citing.

And you haven't yet addressed any of these 4 specific amounts yet.

It clearly highlights the incredible variability within only 9 miles in Chester County. As you move from SE to NW across this county you see wide swings in snowfall totals = with much more (actually equal to Chicago IL on an annual snow basis in Western Chesco) compared to Eastern Chesco. This is part of the reason the NWS a few years back split the zone East and West. Those Coatesville historical obs are clearly accurate and within the realm of variability based on the unique climatology of Chester County

[LVwxHistorian]

5 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

It clearly highlights the incredible variability within only 9 miles in Chester County. As you move from SE to NW across this county you see wide swings in snowfall totals = with much more (actually equal to Chicago IL on an annual snow basis in Western Chesco) compared to Eastern Chesco. This is part of the reason the NWS a few years back split the zone East and West. Those Coatesville historical obs are clearly accurate and within the realm of variability based on the unique climatology of Chester County

What's so unique about it, it's just a little higher?!  That's true everywhere else and nowhere is there this disparity.  Show me another place. 

There's no lake effect, no mountains, no nothing.  It's just incompetent observations which have been dismissed before.

Show me a newspaper that backs up any of it and I'll stand corrected.

BTW how often do you measure snowfall when it snows?

[ChescoWx]

3 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

What's so unique about it, it's just a little higher?!  That's true everywhere else and nowhere is there this disparity.  Show me another place. 

There's no lake effect, no mountains, no nothing.  It's just incompetent observations which have been dismissed before.

Show me a newspaper that backs up any of it and I'll stand corrected.

BTW how often do you measure snowfall when it snows?

I assumed you were like I a trained NWS spotter If so I suspect you know but if you need a refresher - "Measure and record the greatest amount of snowfall that has accumulated on your snowboard (wooden deck or ground if board is not available) since the previous snowfall observation. This measurement should be taken minimally once-a-day but can be taken up to four times a day, (every 6 hours) and should reflect the greatest accumulation of new snow observed (in inches and tenths, for example, 3.9 inches) since the last snowfall observation. Snowfall amounts can be measured hourly or at any interval as long as the snow measurement board is NOT cleared more frequently than once every 6 hours. If you are not available to watch snow accumulation at all times of the day and night, use your best estimate, based on a measurement of snowfall at the scheduled time of observation along with knowledge of what took place during the past 24 hours. If you are not present to witness the greatest snow accumulation, input may be obtained from other people who were near the station during the snow event. If your observation is not based on a measurement, record in your remarks that the "snow amount based on estimate". Remember, you want to report the greatest accumulation since the last observation. If snowfall occurred several times during the period, and each snowfall melted either completely or in part before the next snowfall, record the total of the greatest snowdepths of each event and enter in your remarks "snowfall melted during the OBS period". For example, three separate snow squalls affect your station during your 24-hour reporting day, say 3.0, 2.2, and 1.5 inches. The snow from each event melts off before the next accumulation and no snow is on the ground at your scheduled time of observation. The total snowfall for that reporting 24-hour day is the sum of the three separate snow squalls, 6.7 inches, even though the snow depth on your board at observation time was zero."

[LVwxHistorian]

I'm not a trained spotter but I know the rules.

So how about those newspapers?  I'm sure they would mention 2 feet of snow in April!

[ChescoWx]

4 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

I'm not a trained spotter but I know the rules.

So how about those newspapers?  I'm sure they would mention 2 feet of snow in April!

Here's the 1st newspaper article mentioning almost 20" of snow in South Central PA in that very April 1894 storm - again clear confirmation it is a reasonable snowfall total for Coatesville - again!

https://www.ydr.com/story/news/2018/04/07/snow-april-yes-18-inches-fell-1894-central-pa/494402002/

[LVwxHistorian]

Yes I already mentioned these totals in south central PA,

I'm talking about a newspaper, from Coatesville (or somewhere else), that says Coatesville got these amounts. 

BTW what a dumb name for a town, LOL

[ChescoWx]

HI LV attached is the American Meteorological Society snowfall map for April 1894 published in May 1894. You can clearly see the 33" line of snow entering Chester County PA - clear weather service evidence to support the Coatesville snowfall for April 1894. This is fun!!

[LVwxHistorian]

2 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

HI LV attached is the American Meteorological Society snowfall map for April 1894 published in May 1894. You can clearly see the 33" line of snow entering Chester County PA - clear weather service evidence to support the Coatesville snowfall for April 1894. This is fun!!

That's circular logic, that's just based on their 29 inch total, LOL!!

[MGorse]

You guys are really digging deep into this!

[LVwxHistorian]

I can't find Coatesville papers online.  If you find corroboration for any one of these 4 storms in the local paper, I'll send you $50!!

[LVwxHistorian]

Just now, MGorse said:

You guys are really digging deep into this!

We gotta figure it out, LOL!!

[ChescoWx]

5 minutes ago, MGorse said:

You guys are really digging deep into this!

Hi Mike you know how much I love this stuff! I love to dig into all this data. Who knows maybe I should call myself the ChescowxHistorian - I don't know anyone who has done more research and purchased more NWS data then me in the last 25 years focused on Chesco Wx!

[Birds~69]

32 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

I'm not a trained spotter but I know the rules.

So how about those newspapers?  I'm sure they would mention 2 feet of snow in April!

If you're 18yrs of age, have average intelligence, understand and follow the rules you're basically a trained spotter. 

NWS had classes at one point but the webpage seems to be out or dated...

https://www.weather.gov/phi/classes

[ChescoWx]

9 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

I can't find Coatesville papers online.  If you find corroboration for any one of these 4 storms in the local paper, I'll send you $50!!

LV you of course do not need a newspaper to corroborate reported weather data....since all a local Coatesville paper would have reported would have been what Mr Gordon would have reported to the US Department of Agriculture - Weather Bureau which was the NWS back then....the record is real, validated by high totals in surrounding locations relatively close to the station so time to let this one go my man!! Snowfall measurements are and will continue to be the most variable of weather measurements. We cannot 125 years after the fact try to cancel out what the weather service viewed as valid enough to publish and make part of our climate records because you think the 29" should have been 20.2"

[ChescoWx]

12 minutes ago, Birds~69 said:

If you're 18yrs of age, have average intelligence, understand and follow the rules you're basically a trained spotter. 

NWS had classes at one point but the webpage seems to be out or dated...

https://www.weather.gov/phi/classes

Agreed!! If you follow the rules it is of course not difficult. All that said - snow measurements are always one of the more difficult numbers to get your arms around.....and the NWS knows this very well. I take a lot of time and effort to be accurate as one of my friends at the NWS Mount Holly Tony Gigi once recommended me for an article for the Inquirer after the big snows of February 2010. The reporter that came to my house for the interview told me they were told - that  I was "mighty strong" in my efforts to produce accurate snowfall measurements. I try to live up to those standards!!

[LVwxHistorian]

1 minute ago, ChescoWx said:

LV you of course do not need a newspaper to corroborate reported weather data....since all a local Coatesville paper would have reported would have been what Mr Gordon would have reported to the US Department of Agriculture - Weather Bureau which was the NWS back then....the record is real, validated by high totals in surrounding locations relatively close to the station so time to let this one go my man!! Snowfall measurements are and will continue to be the most variable of weather measurements. We cannot 125 years after the fact try to cancel out what the weather service viewed as valid enough to publish and make part of our climate records because you think the 29" should have been 20.2"

Well first of all, the 29.2" in April 1894 should probably be closer to 10" -- thats all that's supported by KS and WC.  Perhaps he heard about those higher depths and fudged his numbers.  

I don't believe that there was much if any quality control back then as compared to today -- they just accepted the numbers. 

And newspapers frequently give their own totals, I know from experience having looked at alot of newspapers.

You've been quiet on Dec 1909 and Jan 1905, how about those?  

[MGorse]

14 minutes ago, Birds~69 said:

If you're 18yrs of age, have average intelligence, understand and follow the rules you're basically a trained spotter. 

NWS had classes at one point but the webpage seems to be out or dated...

https://www.weather.gov/phi/classes

Updated page...

https://www.weather.gov/phi/skywarn

[Birds~69]

1 minute ago, ChescoWx said:

Agreed!! If you follow the rules it is of course not difficult. All that said - snow measurements are always one of the more difficult numbers to get your arms around.....and the NWS knows this very well. I take a lot of time and effort to be accurate as one of my friends at the NWS Tony Gigi once recommended me for an article for the Inquirer after the big snows of February 2010. The reporter that came to my house for the interview told me they were told - that  I was "mighty strong" in my efforts to produce accurate snowfall measurements. I try to live up to those standards!!

I imagine if it's windy as hell while snowing would create quite a challenge measuring totals among other obstacles. And I understand you probably take one of the more accurate totals out there... 

[ChescoWx]

Just now, Birds~69 said:

I imagine if it's windy as hell while snowing would create quite a challenge measuring totals among other obstacles. And I understand you probably take one of the more accurate totals out there... 

HI Birds - you are correct thanks for the kind words! most appreciated. My wife has tolerated my weather hobby for a long time - I tell her there are many worse hobbies a guy could have!!

[Birds~69]

9 minutes ago, MGorse said:

Updated page...

https://www.weather.gov/phi/skywarn

Not really. Updated Fall 2020....a little behind.

 

[Birds~69]

Severe weather storm spotter link:

Winter storm spotter link:

 

[MGorse]

18 minutes ago, Birds~69 said:

Not really. Updated Fall 2020....a little behind.

 

I meant that the page itself is new/updated...a new web address.

[tcutter]

4 hours ago, ChescoWx said:

HI LV attached is the American Meteorological Society snowfall map for April 1894 published in May 1894. You can clearly see the 33" line of snow entering Chester County PA - clear weather service evidence to support the Coatesville snowfall for April 1894. This is fun!!

And that is probably the north side of Coatesville. 

[LVwxHistorian]

18 hours ago, LVwxHistorian said:

So what you're saying is that you're the reincarnation or relative of this Gordon?! LOL

I understand that farther inland and higher elevation typically get bigger totals, but I'm talking about a specific time period and specific storms where the disparity is monumental, much more than the data you are citing.

And you haven't yet addressed any of these 4 specific amounts yet.

 

19 hours ago, ChescoWx said:

Now LV to put a fine point on this great discussion

Recent Annual Actual snow reports by NWS Trained observers - East Nantmeal Twp PA (EN) vs West Chester PA (WC) (only 9.1 miles apart) to highlight some years with great variability over less than 10 miles

2017 - EN 34.9" / WC 15.8"

2013 - EN 32.6" / WC  18.8"

2012 - EN 21.3" / WC 11.2"

2010 - EN 72.4" / WC - 53.0"

2007 - EN 29.6" / WC - 13.6"

 

 

These are 20" differences over a season, I'm talking 20" differences for a storm!!  

And that map doesn't show the line going through Coatesville since Coatesville isn't labeled on it.

Well since neither Chesco nor anyone else has been able to address any of these besides vague statements of banding and elevation, I think I have a really good argument to NCEI.  

And just so you don't think I'm a hack, I'm a master's student in ATMO at U of Arizona.