Old Crappy Coatesville Snowfall Records!

[LVwxHistorian]

So this is really pissing me off -- bogus snowfall from probably a drunken observer at Coatesville around the turn of the century.  Here are his values compared to the 2 closest stations at the time, Kennett Square and West Chester

April 10-12, 1894:   29.2"   KS - 8.8" and WC - 7.8"

Feb.  1899:   69.8"    KS -- 46", WC - 38" 

 Jan 25, 1905:  29"    KS - 18", WC - 14.3"

Dec 25-26, 1909:  38"   KS -- 23" and at WC -- 21"

Come on!!!

 

Hopefully NCDC will do something about this ridiculousness

[ChescoWx]

Hi LV - you need to relax and calm down a bit - it's just weather obs!.

The late great Mr. W.T. Gordon was the long standing valued official cooperative weather observer for Coatesville for 36 years (1894 to 1930) without missing a day!  I can and will give you many examples where his snow totals were less than surrounding areas....snowfall and banding is highly variable....look at that Morgantown example in March 1958. 

[MGorse]

I first thought about the gradient that occurs from east to west across Chester County, as it can be significant. Have you contacted NCEI (formally NCDC) regarding this? Also, are there any available reports closer to Coatesville to better understand if those values are completely off the rails or not? As ChesoWX stated above, that location was a long standing COOP station. It would be interesting to see what the synoptic setup was during those dates, as I would imagine at least some included intense banding.

[LVwxHistorian]

14 minutes ago, MGorse said:

I first thought about the gradient that occurs from east to west across Chester County, as it can be significant. Have you contacted NCEI (formally NCDC) regarding this? Also, are there any available reports closer to Coatesville to better understand if those values are completely off the rails or not? As ChesoWX stated above, that location was a long standing COOP station. It would be interesting to see what the synoptic setup was during those dates, as I would imagine at least some included intense banding.

Kennett square is 11 miles away and West Chester is 12 miles away!  

How could this guy ALWAYS record such high values -- 20" difference over these distances??  No way.  It doesn't take much to see that there is something seriously wrong here.

Elevations about the same: Coatesville 380', KS: 275', WC: 455'

I've contacted NCEI, hopefully they will get rid of these ridiculous totals -- it's a terrible contamination of the record

[MGorse]

18 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

Kennett square is 11 miles away and West Chester is 12 miles away!  

How could this guy ALWAYS record such high values -- 20" difference over these distances??  No way.  It doesn't take much to see that there is something seriously wrong here.

Elevations about the same: Coatesville 380', KS: 275', WC: 455'

I've contacted NCEI, hopefully they will get rid of these ridiculous totals -- it's a terrible contamination of the record

Good that you contacted NCEI. Hopefully they will be in touch with you on what they decide to do.

[ChescoWx]

25 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

Kennett square is 11 miles away and West Chester is 12 miles away!  

How could this guy ALWAYS record such high values -- 20" difference over these distances??  No way.  It doesn't take much to see that there is something seriously wrong here.

I've contacted NCEI, hopefully they will get rid of these ridiculous totals -- it's a terrible contamination of the record

There are so many examples of huge differences over short distances in Chester and Berks County - how about the March 19-21, 1958 snow event??  50 inches at Morgantown while only 12 miles SE of there at Coatesville only 19" and yet then we go just 11 miles east of Coatesville and find West Chester back up to 32". Do we just go back and say Morgantown is wrong because it is an outlier? Good news for that storm is we have photos of the snow depth with trucks trapped at the PA Turnpike entrace. You cannot go back and disprove snow totals they are very very variable and to Mike G's post the set ups are different plus in the absence of any radar data to actually track and validate the banding it is impossible.  Revisionist history like wiping data will not change the fact it happened

[ChescoWx]

1 hour ago, LVwxHistorian said:

So this is really pissing me off -- bogus snowfall from probably a drunken observer at Coatesville around the turn of the century.  Here are his values compared to the 2 closest stations at the time, Kennett Square and West Chester

April 10-12, 1894:   29.2"   KS - 8.8" and WC - 7.8"

Feb.  1899:   69.8"    KS -- 46", WC - 38" 

 Jan 25, 1905:  29"    KS - 18", WC - 14.3"

Dec 25-26, 1909:  38"   KS -- 23" and at WC -- 21"

Come on!!!

 

Hopefully NCDC will do something about this ridiculousness

To start to validate and corroborate some totals - the Washington Post  reported that "A storm on April 10, 1894 blocked roads with 2 feet or more of wind-whipped snow throughout parts of Maryland, Pennsylvania, and New York. As usual, however, D.C. was left with only a couple of inches"

[LVwxHistorian]

8 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

There are so many examples of huge differences over short distances in Chester and Berks County - how about the March 19-21, 1958 snow event??  50 inches at Morgantown while only 12 miles SE of there at Coatesville only 19" and yet then we go just 11 miles east of Coatesville and find West Chester back up to 32". Do we just go back and say Morgantown is wrong because it is an outlier? Good news for that storm is we have photos of the snow depth with trucks trapped at the PA Turnpike entrace. You cannot go back and disprove snow totals they are very very variable and to Mike G's post the set ups are different plus in the absence of any radar data to actually track and validate the banding it is impossible.  Revisionist history like wiping data will not change the fact it happened

I have a very good answer for March 1958: since it did occur right at the equinox with a high sun angle, elevation played a critical role as you alluded to in the difference between Coatesville and West Chester.  And Morgantown is the highest around there at 595'.

So April 1894 storm would be even more elevation and inland dependent than March 1958:  And Coatesville that is 75' lower than West Chester got 21" more in April 1894!!!

And the other ones, Jan 1905, Feb 1899 and Dec 1909, occurred in winter when elevation plays a minimal role.

You are right about there being big totals from April 1894 inland at Harrisburg, 18" and Lebanon, 25" but nowhere near Coatesville.  

If you really want to clear this up, go to your local library and pull up local newspapers that corroborate him.

[LVwxHistorian]

18 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

There are so many examples of huge differences over short distances in Chester and Berks County - how about the March 19-21, 1958 snow event??  50 inches at Morgantown while only 12 miles SE of there at Coatesville only 19" and yet then we go just 11 miles east of Coatesville and find West Chester back up to 32". Do we just go back and say Morgantown is wrong because it is an outlier? Good news for that storm is we have photos of the snow depth with trucks trapped at the PA Turnpike entrace. You cannot go back and disprove snow totals they are very very variable and to Mike G's post the set ups are different plus in the absence of any radar data to actually track and validate the banding it is impossible.  Revisionist history like wiping data will not change the fact it happened

I have a very good answer for March 1958: since it did occur right at the equinox with a high sun angle, elevation played a critical role as you alluded to in the difference between Coatesville and West Chester.  And Morgantown is the highest around there at 595'.

So April 1894 storm would be even more elevation and inland dependent than March 1958:  And Coatesville that is 75' lower than West Chester got 21" more in April 1894!!!

And the other ones, Jan 1905, Feb 1899 and Dec 1909, occurred in winter when elevation plays a minimal role.

You are right about there being big totals from April 1894 inland at Harrisburg, 18" and Lebanon, 25" but nowhere near Coatesville.  

If you really want to clear this up, go to your local library and pull up local newspapers that corroborate him.

[LVwxHistorian]

And BTW the Morgantown 50" total was backed up by a 49" total at Devault, also measured by the Turnpike

[ChescoWx]

2 hours ago, LVwxHistorian said:

So this is really pissing me off -- bogus snowfall from probably a drunken observer at Coatesville around the turn of the century.  Here are his values compared to the 2 closest stations at the time, Kennett Square and West Chester

April 10-12, 1894:   29.2"   KS - 8.8" and WC - 7.8"

Feb.  1899:   69.8"    KS -- 46", WC - 38" 

 Jan 25, 1905:  29"    KS - 18", WC - 14.3"

Dec 25-26, 1909:  38"   KS -- 23" and at WC -- 21"

Come on!!!

 

Hopefully NCDC will do something about this ridiculousness

Some more back up for the February 1899 totals - Coatesville's 3 day total was 45.3" - Washington DC reported 34" even Cape May NJ 32" of snow - Easton MD reported over 50" of snow that month!

[LVwxHistorian]

2 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

Some more back up for the February 1899 totals - Coatesville's 3 day total was 45.3" - Washington DC reported 34" even Cape May NJ 32" of snow - Easton MD reported over 50" of snow that month!

Yeah those are nowhere near 70"!

[tcutter]

As someone who grew up in Coatesville, you also have to understand that the surrounding areas are considered Coatesville too so it is possible back then that some totals were just outside the city proper. I grew up much closer to Honey Brook which is 738 elevation (in West Caln) and we always seemed to get higher totals then south of us in the Coatesville "area"

[LVwxHistorian]

1 minute ago, tcutter said:

As someone who grew up in Coatesville, you also have to understand that the surrounding areas are considered Coatesville too so it is possible back then that some totals were just outside the city proper. I grew up much closer to Honey Brook which is 738 elevation (in West Caln) and we always seemed to get higher totals then south of us in the Coatesville "area"

 Its published station elevation is 380'

[ChescoWx]

Always enjoy these data mines!! I have so many examples of huge differences in snow totals across very short distances

Any way back to February 1899. While not topping the Coatesville monthly total (heck someone has to be 1st it just is what it is!) here are some other relatively close monthly totals some to help corroborate totals

Warrenton VA - 54"

Egg Harbor City NJ - 52"

Ellicott City MD - 52"

[ChescoWx]

2 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

 Its published station elevation is 380'

Elevation was between 340ft and 380ft between 1894 to 1983. Since February 1983 elevation has been over 640ft ASL

[tcutter]

I understand the published elevation but Coatesville is in Valley Township which is where the lower elevation is but as you head northwest it definitely rises. I experienced both 1993 and 1996 firsthand in my old home.

[LVwxHistorian]

4 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

Always enjoy these data mines!! I have so many examples of huge differences in snow totals across very short distances

Any way back to February 1899. While not topping the Coatesville monthly total (heck someone has to be 1st it just is what it is!) here are some other relatively close monthly totals some to help corroborate totals

Warrenton VA - 54"

Egg Harbor City NJ - 52"

Ellicott City MD - 52"

Have you looked up any of these storms in local newspapers?  - they usually mention totals.

And you're talking places far away, I'm talking about the nearest stations to this bozo!!

[ChescoWx]

Christmas Eve 1966 - Coatesville 21.2"  - West Chester 22" - while the Lehigh Valley and PA only received about 12"

[ChescoWx]

4 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

Have you looked up any of these storms in local newspapers?  - they usually mention totals.

And you're talking places far away, I'm talking about the nearest stations to this bozo!!

Thankfully it is close enough as the crow flies in NMs to validate. I will also be sure to pass the total data set over to the NCEI when done to help them corroborate - good stuff!!

[LVwxHistorian]

2 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

Christmas Eve 1966 - Coatesville 21.2"  - West Chester 22" - while the Lehigh Valley and PA only received about 12"

Thats true what's your ponit, wasn't this goofball dead by then?!!

And you guys had lightning that caused house fires -- so localized convection

[MGorse]

5 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

Have you looked up any of these storms in local newspapers?  - they usually mention totals.

And you're talking places far away, I'm talking about the nearest stations to this bozo!!

I think we can do without the name calling.

[ChescoWx]

Just now, MGorse said:

I think we can do without the name calling.

Thanks Mike!  I originally ordered Mr. Gordon's hand written obs from the NCDC back in the late 90's for 1894 to 1930 - he was very thorough and we should not disparage his work. I think the fact we are finding 50" plus snow totals for February at the NJ shore is plenty of validation for Coatesville - since we will never be able to review the radar to determine banding and/or if any convective components such as the Christmas 1966 blizzard etc. Thanks!!

[LVwxHistorian]

1 minute ago, MGorse said:

I think we can do without the name calling.

Bozo was referring to this observer not Mr. Chesco

[ChescoWx]

4 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

Thats true what's your ponit, wasn't this goofball dead by then?!!

LV - it simply points out the variability in snow totals over short distances. I will post some real doozies between here and surrounding locations just in the past 15 years along with the rest of the data I am analyzing. Thanks!

[ChescoWx]

1 minute ago, LVwxHistorian said:

Bozo was referring to this observer not Mr. Chesco

Still you are dead wrong for calling anyone a name. He was a solid long standing reported for the weather service for at least 36 years! show some respect please

[MGorse]

2 minutes ago, LVwxHistorian said:

Bozo was referring to this observer not Mr. Chesco

Yes I know, and as I said I think we can do without the name calling.

[LVwxHistorian]

3 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

LV - it simply points out the variability in snow totals over short distances. I will post some real doozies between here and surrounding locations just in the past 15 years along with the rest of the data I am analyzing. Thanks!

Ok I look forward to seeing them.  And I didn't mean to insult him -- just his snow-measuring abilities!

[ChescoWx]

LV again just to highlight the incredible variability in reported snow totals and highlight how difficult it is to disprove higher totals.

Back in February 2010 - ABE airport reported 42.9" of snow for the month - Here in East Nantmeal Twp in Chester County only 35 miles SW of that spot a NWS trained spotter (me) recorded 62.8"of snow a 20" difference over 30+ miles in 1 month - a 48% variance!

 

[ChescoWx]

LV again just to highlight the incredible variability in reported snow totals and highlight how difficult it is to disprove higher totals.

Back in February 2010 - ABE airport reported 42.9" of snow for the month - Here in East Nantmeal Twp in Chester County only 35 miles SW of that spot a NWS trained spotter (me) recorded 62.8"of snow a 20" difference over 30+ miles in 1 month - a 48% variance!