NNE Cold Season Thread 2021/2022

[powderfreak]

59 minutes ago, alex said:

Well said JSpin. I used to be so anxious about snow. A few years after moving up here it changed. When you’re in SNE seeing your snowpack wiped out is really, really sad. Up here, you can watch in awe as the temperature goes from single digits to the 50s and your pack gets wiped out, knowing that within a few days it will start building back up. It’s a much easier life for a weenie

Yup, we all go through it.  Moving from that mentality that it should snow at some point vs the more anxiety style where I grew up near ALB.  You just start to have this appreciation that it will snow at some point.    You always want that huge monster record winter but then again are just fine with snow on the ground most of the winter.  I think just NNE in general mellows you out too… from the hustle and bustle.

Tippy might be able to add some psychological insight .

[dendrite]

I wish I could wipe mine out.

[powderfreak]

28 minutes ago, dendrite said:

I wish I could wipe mine out.

Haha I had 47F on my car leaving the office and 44F at home.  Just plow piles and a random smattering of like “footprint” snow left where we walked in the yard.  That 3” this morning when I left this morning is gone.

[PhineasC]

30 minutes ago, dendrite said:

I wish I could wipe mine out.

Move north.

[dryslot]

2 hours ago, dendrite said:

Down to 32.3°. 

Just hit 32.0°F

[powderfreak]

25 minutes ago, dryslot said:

Just hit 32.0°F

I love the variations around NNE… such a wide variety of weather here.

Personally looking at the local MVL obs it’s about as ugly as it gets.  38s, 39s and 40F all day.  If we are going to warm up, I’d love to torch and be like 50F… or dam it in and stay 32F.

Rotting at 38-40F for 12 hours is the ugly middle ground between torch and CAD .

[dryslot]

11 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

I love the variations around NNE… such a wide variety of weather here.

Personally looking at the local MVL obs it’s about as ugly as it gets.  38s, 39s and 40F all day.  If we are going to warm up, I’d love to torch and be like 50F… or dam it in and stay 32F.

Rotting at 38-40F for 12 hours is the ugly middle ground between torch and CAD .

Cooking up high, Cold down low type day.

[powderfreak]

2 minutes ago, dryslot said:

Cooking up high, Cold down low type day.

Yup, weird to see the p-type radar all green with rain in all the mountain areas but pink for wintry mix on the coastal plain and SE of the mountains.

[dryslot]

1 minute ago, powderfreak said:

Yup, weird to see the p-type radar all green with rain in all the mountain areas but pink for wintry mix on the coastal plain and SE of the mountains.

Its more vice versa usually ha ha.

[jculligan]

16 hours ago, PhineasC said:

IIRC, the December 5th storm last season hosed you guys, right? I got about 15" or so of heavy cement from that which jumpstarted the pack here (until Grinch).

The December 5th storm (last year) completely hosed the valley. They didn't get any snow from that one. At my location, it was raining cat paws until about 4pm then eventually managed to snow 6" when temps dipped to 32F in the evening. The frequency of events has been way higher this year, but the magnitude of each event has been less with no 3"+ yet in my location.

Heading north this morning. On the drive up 16 it'll be interesting to see if/where the snowpack held.

[J.Spin]

Event totals: 0.1” Snow/0.50” L.E.

 

It looked like this was going to be one of those storms without any accumulation down here in the valley, but I did find a tenth of an inch here at our site this morning.  Although this system wasn’t a big snow producer in our area, it did reach the threshold to become the first named winter storm of the season (Winter Storm Atticus) because of its effects in the Midwest.

 

Details from the 6:00 A.M. Waterbury observations:

New Snow: 0.1 inches

New Liquid: Trace

Temperature: 33.4 F

Sky: Clear

Snow at the stake: Trace

[alex]

Hey VT peeps! Question for you. Yesterday, driving back from Stowe (essentially via Rt 15) I noticed that the areas with more snow were not around Mansfield, as I expected, but rather in the Wolcott-Walden stretch. What drives that? Do they have fantastic retention, or do they somehow get more snow than areas around Mansfield at the same elevation? You had to be around 1500ft at the resort or on Edson Hill (decided that's going to be my future home lol) to get any form of snow cover, and in Morrisville there wasn't anything even that far up (we saw some land there quite high up near Elmore Mt), but then the snowcover steadily increase heading East on 15 past Elmore Lake even though the elevation is lower. Any ideas? It was actually a very fascinating drive because the lack of snow meant you could really pick up local variations that normally you might not notice. 

[mreaves]

32 minutes ago, alex said:

Hey VT peeps! Question for you. Yesterday, driving back from Stowe (essentially via Rt 15) I noticed that the areas with more snow were not around Mansfield, as I expected, but rather in the Wolcott-Walden stretch. What drives that? Do they have fantastic retention, or do they somehow get more snow than areas around Mansfield at the same elevation? You had to be around 1500ft at the resort or on Edson Hill (decided that's going to be my future home lol) to get any form of snow cover, and in Morrisville there wasn't anything even that far up (we saw some land there quite high up near Elmore Mt), but then the snowcover steadily increase heading East on 15 past Elmore Lake even though the elevation is lower. Any ideas? It was actually a very fascinating drive because the lack of snow meant you could really pick up local variations that normally you might not notice. 

Walden and Danville are really great for snow. Morrisville to Hardwick is decent for snow but I never considered it all that special until you climbed towards Walden.  Do you remember the Coles' Pond Weather Cam?  Coles Pond is in Walden at 2200'.  The snow they get up there is spectacular.  Great area to ride snowmobiles.  Joe's Pond in Danville is lower elevation  but still really nice and gets good snow.  I don't have the savvy of PF to be able to explain why but I do know the area pretty well.  I have friend's who have a camp on the eastern side of Rt.15 between Hardwick and Wolcott  at about 1500' and I spend a fair amount of time there in the fall.  Here is the elevation map of the area

 

[alex]

6 minutes ago, mreaves said:

Walden and Danville are really great for snow. Morrisville to Hardwick is decent for snow but I never considered it all that special until you climbed towards Walden.  Do you remember the Coles' Pond Weather Cam?  Coles Pond is in Walden at 2200'.  The snow they get up there is spectacular.  Great area to ride snowmobiles.  Joe's Pond in Danville is lower elevation  but still really nice and gets good snow.  I don't have the savvy of PF to be able to explain why but I do know the area pretty well.  I have friend's who have a camp on the eastern side of Rt.15 between Hardwick and Wolcott  at about 1500' and I spend a fair amount of time there in the fall.  Here is the elevation map of the area

 

Oh interesting, I guess there's more elevation than I thought... that would definitely explain some of the difference. Where do you get that map? Google Maps is not nearly as nice to look at as you squint trying to figure out the elevation lines lol

[mreaves]

30 minutes ago, alex said:

Oh interesting, I guess there's more elevation than I thought... that would definitely explain some of the difference. Where do you get that map? Google Maps is not nearly as nice to look at as you squint trying to figure out the elevation lines lol

@ORH_wxmanhas posted the link a few times. I have it on my laptop and I’m on my phone now. If he doesn’t post it I will when I log in to it tomorrow. 

[wxmanmitch]

I just had a glimpse of a large, healthy bull moose on the side of the road in front of the house. Unfortunately, by the time I had grabbed my phone it had disappeared back into the patch of dense spruce/fir woods from whence it came. I drove around looking for it, but no such luck in finding it again. This was my first moose sighting in the almost 4 years I've lived here. I'll keep my eyes peeled in the hopes that I'll see it again...

There's about 2-3" of crusty snow in the protected areas, but bare ground elsewhere. Snow coverage is about 50%. Almost no melting today despite a high of 41° F. Dew points in the low 20s and solar minimum FTW. 

 

[powderfreak]

2 hours ago, alex said:

Hey VT peeps! Question for you. Yesterday, driving back from Stowe (essentially via Rt 15) I noticed that the areas with more snow were not around Mansfield, as I expected, but rather in the Wolcott-Walden stretch. What drives that? Do they have fantastic retention, or do they somehow get more snow than areas around Mansfield at the same elevation? You had to be around 1500ft at the resort or on Edson Hill (decided that's going to be my future home lol) to get any form of snow cover, and in Morrisville there wasn't anything even that far up (we saw some land there quite high up near Elmore Mt), but then the snowcover steadily increase heading East on 15 past Elmore Lake even though the elevation is lower. Any ideas? It was actually a very fascinating drive because the lack of snow meant you could really pick up local variations that normally you might not notice. 

Lots of ideas.  I’ll try to circle back later.

[backedgeapproaching]

That Mitch post got me curious as I haven't checked my Nest cam in a while, and actually had my first coyote on camera Sat night....came right up to the back door looks like.

#caughtonNestCam. https://video.nest.com/clip/49674337227e4a97b1c1233f901ce0cf.mp4

#caughtonNestCam. https://video.nest.com/clip/3529ebaf58c44104b8a62ed0dcdac384.mp4

 

 

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, backedgeapproaching said:

That Mitch post got me curious as I haven't checked my Nest cam in a while, and actually had my first coyote on camera Sat night....came right up to the back door looks like.

#caughtonNestCam. https://video.nest.com/clip/49674337227e4a97b1c1233f901ce0cf.mp4

#caughtonNestCam. https://video.nest.com/clip/3529ebaf58c44104b8a62ed0dcdac384.mp4

 

 

That's wicked cool.  Just the casual wild dog wandering around the yard.

[powderfreak]

3 hours ago, mreaves said:

@ORH_wxmanhas posted the link a few times. I have it on my laptop and I’m on my phone now. If he doesn’t post it I will when I log in to it tomorrow. 

This one is great.

https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/maps/lrfs/Vermont/

[#NoPoles]

14 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

This one is great.

https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/maps/lrfs/Vermont/

Omg, I love this! Thanks for the link!

[backedgeapproaching]

Yea, everytime I see that topo map I forget to bookmark, its great. 

[mreaves]

39 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

This one is great.

https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/maps/lrfs/Vermont/

Yes, that’s the one I snipped from. I’ve just never figured out how to bookmark it on my iPhone. 

[powderfreak]

5 hours ago, alex said:

Oh interesting, I guess there's more elevation than I thought... that would definitely explain some of the difference. Where do you get that map? Google Maps is not nearly as nice to look at as you squint trying to figure out the elevation lines lol

There is a surprisingly snowy pocket in north-central Vermont that retains snow well too.  It does well in upslope and synoptic... but also retains it with better CAD.

The northern Green Mtn Spine does have a decent gap in it between the Stowe/Smuggs area and closer to Jay Peak up north.  Belvidere is a tall mountain but stands a bit alone.  A decent amount of moisture moves through that zone though and then ends up falling in spots like Eden, Greensboro, Walden, Cabot.  All very snowy spots with most residents above 1,200ft and even some in the 1800-2200ft level.

There used to be an old COOP spot in Eden that was pretty damn snowy.  I think they had 80-90" in March 2001... it's no Weymouth, Mass in 2015 but still a solid monthly total in a snowy spot.  Also on CoCoRAHS you'll often find Greensboro (Hill Farmstead Brewery town) and Cabot (cheese) in the top 5-10 snow spots in Vermont annually.

I truly believe that gap in the Spine leads to maximized snow on the west side of the "secondary" spine that runs from the Orange Highlands up into the NEK.  You also get NEK type cold air damming in many of those valleys (800ft) up through the mid-slopes (2,000ft).  Then they do well in synoptic events too, far enough away from the NEK downslope areas on easterly flow that can plague spots like Lyndon and Saint J.

The more mellow/rolling terrain that averages pretty high there, isn't like the sharp up/down high elevation next to low elevation spots that can be found near other parts of the Spine.  That lack of huge terrain changes limits wind flow mixing, turbulence, eddies, etc... things that disrupt the cold air damming.  As we saw in the last event, the key contributor is wind flow that mixes out the inversion and in many events, areas surrounding the largest terrain are more likely to see turbulence in the lee side of big terrain mix out first.

That zone just seems to benefit from a combination of better CAD, along with solid synoptic snow, and a break in the Spine allows mesoscale snow to thrive.  As we see elsewhere (like the Winooski Valley), anywhere there is a gap in the terrain and some sort of inversion or mechanism aloft to block the air slightly... you get moisture to converge as you force it through the gap and then it hits the secondary barrier.  Just like water in a stream moving between and then into rocks.

It is definitely one of the most underrated snow spots in New England IMO.  But it's rural and you have to be more committed to living there.  

[mreaves]

43 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

There is a surprisingly snowy pocket in north-central Vermont that retains snow well too.  It does well in upslope and synoptic... but also retains it with better CAD.

The northern Green Mtn Spine does have a decent gap in it between the Stowe-Smuggs area and closer to Jay Peak up north.  Belvidere is a tall mountain but stands a bit alone.  A decent amount of moisture moves through that zone though and then ends up falling in spots like Eden, Greensboro, Walden, Cabot.  All very snowy spots with most residents above 1,200ft and even some in the 1800-2200ft level.

There used to be an old COOP spot in Eden that was pretty damn snowy.  I think they had 80-90" in March 2001... it's no Weymouth, Mass in 2015 but still a solid monthly total in a snowy spot.  Also on CoCoRAHS you'll often find Greensboro (Hill Farmstead Brewery town) and Cabot (cheese) in the top 5-10 snow spots in Vermont annually.

I truly believe that gap in the Spine leads to maximized snow on the west side of the "secondary" spine that runs from the Orange Highlands up into the NEK.  You also get NEK type cold air damming in many of those valleys (800ft) up through the mid-slopes (2,000ft).  Then they do well in synoptic events too, far enough away from the NEK downslope areas on easterly flow that can plague spots like Lyndon and Saint J.

The more mellow/rolling terrain that averages pretty high there, isn't like the sharp up/down high elevation next to low elevation spots that can be found near other parts of the Spine.  That lack of huge terrain changes limits wind flow mixing, turbulence, eddies, etc... things that disrupt the cold air damming.  As we saw in the last event, the key contributor is wind flow that mixes out the inversion and in many events, areas surrounding the largest terrain are more likely to see turbulence in the lee side of big terrain mix out first.

That zone just seems to benefit from a combination of better CAD, along with solid synoptic snow, and a break in the Spine allows mesoscale snow to thrive.  As we see elsewhere (like the Winooski Valley), anywhere there is a gap in the terrain and some sort of inversion or mechanism aloft to block the air slightly... you get moisture to converge as you force it through the gap and then it hits the secondary barrier.  Just like water in a stream moving between and then into rocks.

It is definitely one of the most underrated snow spots in New England IMO.  But it's rural and you have to be more committed to living there.  

I couldn’t have said it better myself. Actually, I couldn’t have said that at all. Great explanation and it sounds reasonable too!  All I know is that I have traveled the entire state, for work and play and this area is usually among the snowiest. Like you said though, you are usually a little farther from stuff. Having said that, there are things in the area. Hill Farmstead, Parker Pie in Greensboro/Glover. Catamount Arts is close in St.J. Morrisville is a surprisingly good little town that’s accessible. Plenty of people commute to Montpelier. It’s not really the NEK but it’s close. Overall, it’s one of my favorite parts of the state. 

[alex]

Awesome write up @powderfreak . So interesting to see all the microclimates 

[dryslot]

Last night was a great example of being in the valley surrounded by elevation, My temp was 25°F where all the surrounding stations with elevation were in the mid to high 30's and why i can radiate with the best of them at times with a HP up north draining cold SSW and no wind.

[SJonesWX]

2 minutes ago, dryslot said:

Last night was a great example of being in the valley surrounded by elevation, My temp was 25°F where all the surrounding stations with elevation were in the mid to high 30's and why i can radiate with the best of them at times with a HP up north draining cold SSW and no wind.

not much elevation in my area, but i could feel it on my morning walk. it was 40 at my house, as i headed downhill (slight slope, maybe 100' elevation change) I could feel the colder air.

[tamarack]

8 minutes ago, dryslot said:

Last night was a great example of being in the valley surrounded by elevation, My temp was 25°F where all the surrounding stations with elevation were in the mid to high 30's and why i can radiate with the best of them at times with a HP up north draining cold SSW and no wind.

Temps were weird during the past 12 hours.  After a high of 42 yesterday it was down to 30 at 11 PM under clear skies.  At 4:15 this morning it was upper 30s and breezy, and now it's mid 30s and holding with some gusts near 30 mph.  Pre-CF shenanigans.

Can you post the link for Maine?  I tried changing "Vermont" to "Maine" on the earlier link and ended up in a maze of required actions/frustrations.

[dryslot]

2 minutes ago, tamarack said:

Temps were weird during the past 12 hours.  After a high of 42 yesterday it was down to 30 at 11 PM under clear skies.  At 4:15 this morning it was upper 30s and breezy, and now it's mid 30s and holding with some gusts near 30 mph.  Pre-CF shenanigans.

Can you post the link for Maine?  I tried changing "Vermont" to "Maine" on the earlier link and ended up in a maze of required actions/frustrations.

Here you go Tom, Underneath the state heading, If you click on United States it opens another page with all the states as an FYI,

https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/maps/bq/Maine/