NNE Cold Season Thread 2021/2022

[powderfreak]

5 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Just so you are not surprised again. Expect frozen tonight again. Looks like a good storm for Greens and Whites

Lift Maintenance found 1/2-1” of clear ice on the FourRunner Quad above 3000ft here.  Sounds real rugged.  Going to open with the Triple that stayed below the ice line.

[PhineasC]

42 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

This is one of the weirdest stories I’ve heard.  Driver became stuck in mud in Middlesex, VT… and I have no idea how it gets to this:

Mud season nightmare: A VPR host was stranded for 7 hours on a rural road. She barely survived.

Nearly three weeks after Linda Radtke’s mud season disaster, she was still finding mud in her ears.

She hung inverted out the driver’s side window. She was freezing, unconscious, her mouth in the mud.

When Matthew Collins, a driver for The Auto Clinic, arrived on the scene, he could not initially make sense of what he saw. Something was hanging out of the car window. 

It was Radtke. She was wrapped in a dirty sleeping bag. She had one leg stuck through the driver’s side window of her car, lodged beneath the steering wheel. Her face, buried in the mud, was obscured.

“You could hear gurgling,” Collins said. “She had a very, very faint, shallow heartbeat, just barely breathing. Her airways and all that, her nose, everything was full of mud.”

https://vtdigger.org/2022/04/07/mud-season-nightmare-a-vpr-host-was-stranded-for-seven-hours-on-a-rural-road-she-barely-survived/

Like most of these kids of articles, about 20% of it is vague descriptions of what actually happened with no clear conclusions and the rest of it is soft news human interest stuff about how grateful she is to have recovered...

I agree with the premise hinted at in the article that she got out to push her car up the road, slipped and fell all over the place, dropped her keys, and then tried to get back into the car through the window. She was freezing so she was wrapped in a sleeping bag. Knee deep mud is definitely enough to be an issue for an older person. Seems likely her muffler went under the mud and she couldn't keep the car running. Probably a small Subaru...

People always forget when they are in situations like this to simply stop and stay put if you know people are aware of your location.

Some of these really bad mud roads need to be paved, but if it's anything like over this way, it's these same older locals with a green conservation bent who block it time and again. That's what happens in Randolph, at least.

[powderfreak]

24 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Some of these really bad mud roads need to be paved, but if it's anything like over this way, it's these same older locals with a green conservation bent who block it time and again. That's what happens in Randolph, at least.

Do you repave them annually though when the frost heaves buckle them?  We always discuss it on our small road but grading it a couple times a year is so much cheaper than having to pave it and then fix it all the time.  It always seems to be a cost discussion around these parts as it's very easy and cheap to fix a dirt/gravel road but when a paved road gets in unacceptable shape its very expensive.  Limited infrastructure budgets probably play a much greater role than environmental reasons.

There's a frost heave on RT 108 leading away from the ski resort here that's like a mini- asphalt halfpipe where everyone local knows to slow down to like 30 mph in a 50 mph zone.  Just formed the past couple months, who knows when the state will deal with it.  I'm sure some of the bad mud roads if paved would be a disaster in short order and then rarely get fixed... so you're left with this unacceptable paved road year round instead of a couple weeks of mud then grading.

[PhineasC]

12 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Do you repave them annually though when the frost heaves buckle them?  We always discuss it on our small road but grading it a couple times a year is so much cheaper than having to pave it and then fix it all the time.  It always seems to be a cost discussion around these parts as it's very easy and cheap to fix a dirt/gravel road but when a paved road gets in unacceptable shape its very expensive.  Limited infrastructure budgets probably play a much greater role than environmental reasons.

There's a frost heave on RT 108 leading away from the ski resort here that's like a mini- asphalt halfpipe where everyone local knows to slow down to like 30 mph in a 50 mph zone.  Just formed the past couple months, who knows when the state will deal with it.  I'm sure some of the bad mud roads if paved would be a disaster in short order and then rarely get fixed... so you're left with this unacceptable paved road year round instead of a couple weeks of mud then grading.

So far Randolph Hill road hasn't had any issues. They paved it right before I moved up here in 2020.

I would be fine with the unpaved roads if they properly graded them and put down ledge pack or some other tightly binding stone. Instead they just dump fill dirt on it and pack it down. 

The plows definitely do a lot of damage to these unpaved roads. They push off the top layer.

[backedgeapproaching]

It definitely seems to be a combination of cost and "VT character".  The cost is probably the overwhelming factor though.

https://www.treehugger.com/why-one-vermont-town-tearing-asphalt-instead-repairing-potholes-4867361

Just the name of this website says it all .

I like this snippet from the article:

Back in 2008, the New York Times reported that a “citizens’ uprising” was borne in the town of Brookfield, just south of Montpelier, when officials announced plans to pave a half-mile stretch of dirt road. Mortified by the prospect of the road in question being desecrated with asphalt, town residents banded together and fought back. The road was never paved. At the time, Vermont boasted 6,000 miles of paved road — and 8,000 miles of unpaved roads.

 

 

[PhineasC]

2 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

It definitely seems to be a combination of cost and "VT character".  The cost is probably the overwhelming factor though.

https://www.treehugger.com/why-one-vermont-town-tearing-asphalt-instead-repairing-potholes-4867361

Just the name of this website says it all .

I like this snippet from the article:

Back in 2008, the New York Times reported that a “citizens’ uprising” was borne in the town of Brookfield, just south of Montpelier, when officials announced plans to pave a half-mile stretch of dirt road. Mortified by the prospect of the road in question being desecrated with asphalt, town residents banded together and fought back. The road was never paved. At the time, Vermont boasted 6,000 miles of paved road — and 8,000 miles of unpaved roads.

 

 

Yep. 100% chance if you asked this lady who was almost killed by her muddy road if it should be paved, she'd still say no.

It's a thing over here too, and I can only imagine there is even more of that in VT since you guys tend to be the crunchier kind of granola.

Everyone here has a lifted truck or SUV though. I couldn't imagine dealing with this mud in a Subaru station wagon.

[NW_of_GYX]

Lots of people from away bought lake front houses on private camp roads during COVID and are finding out the hard way about mud season. You can't live year round down a half mile dirt road that drops 200 feet to the lake and drive a Prius. Not happening. 

[NW_of_GYX]

headed to Jay this afternoon. Hoping for some upslope magic tomorrow night. Model spread is pretty wide and BTV is not buying much. If you guys in VT could cue up some fake snow for me that would be great. 

[powderfreak]

37 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Yep. 100% chance if you asked this lady who was almost killed by her muddy road if it should be paved, she'd still say no.

It's a thing over here too, and I can only imagine there is even more of that in VT since you guys tend to be the crunchier kind of granola.

Everyone here has a lifted truck or SUV though. I couldn't imagine dealing with this mud in a Subaru station wagon.

Yeah, I do think even if it was cheap to pave and maintain paved roads... it might not matter... there's also like a sub-conscious (or maybe more overt sometimes) vibe of "don't bring the suburbs here" by paving everything.  People moving up to the North Country and start demanding roads that have been dirt for centuries should be paved is a good way to ostracize oneself, ha.  Sprinkle in that humans love to resist change in anyway at all and roads stay dirt.

On an aside too... looks like both states have a pretty similar list of most popular vehicles.  Trucks in both NH and VT by far the most popular despite the stereotypes, ha.  Looks like it goes Ford, Chevy, Toyota for both states.

Most Registered Vehicles in Vermont

1) Ford F Series

2) Chevy Silverado

3) Toyota Tacoma

4) GMC Sierra

5) Subaru Forester

Top registered vehicles in New Hampshire

1. Ford F-Series 
2. Chevrolet Silverado 
3. Toyota RAV4 
4. Ram 1500/2500/3500 
5. Honda CR-V 

[powderfreak]

That list surprised me on an aside, ha.  Figured Subaru would be #1-5.  Reading into it there's still a lot of farm and manual labor, construction, in the rest of the state etc that overwhelms the Subaru numbers around Burlington.  And Subaru doesn't make a working truck.

[NW_of_GYX]

Maine is similar, not surprisingly. Half my road, myself included, has a RAV. I also have a Subaru and the RAV is a vastly superior vehicle. 

1. Ford F-Series
2. Chevrolet Silverado 
3. Ram 1500/2500/3500
4. Toyota RAV4 
5. GMC Sierra

[NW_of_GYX]

The tacoma being number #3 is so Burlington, Vermont. That might be VT's new "subaru" at this point. 

[powderfreak]

7 minutes ago, NW_of_GYX said:

The tacoma being number #3 is so Burlington, Vermont. That might be VT's new "subaru" at this point. 

I almost think it’s passed a bit.  When I was in college at UVM all anyone wanted was a Tacoma.  That or a Nissan X-Terra, lol. That was 2003-2007.  I feel like I see less of those now.  I also haven’t lived in Burlington for 12 years now.

[klw]

52 minutes ago, NW_of_GYX said:

Lots of people from away bought lake front houses on private camp roads during COVID and are finding out the hard way about mud season. You can't live year round down a half mile dirt road that drops 200 feet to the lake and drive a Prius. Not happening. 

Sure you can:

[NW_of_GYX]

7 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

I almost think it’s passed a bit.  When I was in college at UVM all anyone wanted was a Tacoma.  That or a Nissan X-Terra, lol. That was 2003-2007.  I feel like I see less of those now.  I also haven’t lived in Burlington for 12 years now.

I'm sure you're right but the amount of Tacoma's with VT plates lined up at the mountain bike trailheads in NoCo all summer paints a different picture for this Mainer. And the X-terra, wow. I still see quite a few of those, now 15 years old or more, rattling around the backroads of western Maine. The yellow one's stick out especially. 

[tamarack]

30 minutes ago, NW_of_GYX said:

Maine is similar, not surprisingly. Half my road, myself included, has a RAV. I also have a Subaru and the RAV is a vastly superior vehicle. 

1. Ford F-Series
2. Chevrolet Silverado 
3. Ram 1500/2500/3500
4. Toyota RAV4 
5. GMC Sierra

I've had little experience with the RAV 4 but enough to think our Forester is much the better - a bit more clearance, more internal room, better visibility, similar mileage (to the gas RAV).  Just IMO.  The vehicles seen in our area are quite heavy to Subarus, but pickups are more common.

As for mud roads, proper drainage plus 8-12" of good gravel is the remedy, though even that won't stand up to loaded log trucks and the like, hence the posters.  The town's road manager and crew have been fighting with a mud disaster road 3 miles NE of my place, while the 2,000' of gravel between our place (at the end of maintained road) and pavement merely gets briefly slimy with the first real late winter warmth.  It has good material and once the top few inches are thawed, light traffic is easily supported.  I wish no pavement here, as several culverts move up and/or down during winter and spring and the tar would quickly become a mess. 

[mreaves]

3 hours ago, powderfreak said:

This is one of the weirdest stories I’ve heard.  Driver became stuck in mud in Middlesex, VT… and I have no idea how it gets to this:

Mud season nightmare: A VPR host was stranded for 7 hours on a rural road. She barely survived.

Nearly three weeks after Linda Radtke’s mud season disaster, she was still finding mud in her ears.

She hung inverted out the driver’s side window. She was freezing, unconscious, her mouth in the mud.

When Matthew Collins, a driver for The Auto Clinic, arrived on the scene, he could not initially make sense of what he saw. Something was hanging out of the car window. 

It was Radtke. She was wrapped in a dirty sleeping bag. She had one leg stuck through the driver’s side window of her car, lodged beneath the steering wheel. Her face, buried in the mud, was obscured.

“You could hear gurgling,” Collins said. “She had a very, very faint, shallow heartbeat, just barely breathing. Her airways and all that, her nose, everything was full of mud.”

https://vtdigger.org/2022/04/07/mud-season-nightmare-a-vpr-host-was-stranded-for-seven-hours-on-a-rural-road-she-barely-survived/

I read that this morning and it left me scratching my head.  I guess at some point she panicked and made some bad decisions.  I know the road, though I don't know exactly where she was.  Although it's not a major thoroughfare its not the most isolated road either. 

[NW_of_GYX]

19 minutes ago, tamarack said:

I've had little experience with the RAV 4 but enough to think our Forester is much the better - a bit more clearance, more internal room, better visibility, similar mileage (to the gas RAV).  Just IMO.  The vehicles seen in our area are quite heavy to Subarus, but pickups are more common.

As for mud roads, proper drainage plus 8-12" of good gravel is the remedy, though even that won't stand up to loaded log trucks and the like, hence the posters.  The town's road manager and crew have been fighting with a mud disaster road 3 miles NE of my place, while the 2,000' of gravel between our place (at the end of maintained road) and pavement merely gets briefly slimy with the first real late winter warmth.  It has good material and once the top few inches are thawed, light traffic is easily supported.  I wish no pavement here, as several culverts move up and/or down during winter and spring and the tar would quickly become a mess. 

My issue with Subaru's is mostly mechanical. I have never liked the boxer motors, they all feel underpowered and the power bands are funky. Plus they all inevitably end up with terrible heat shield rattles and I've had two that blew the head gaskets. The straight 4s in the yotas and hondas just feel way better to me and have a much longer tack record of longevity and performance. 

[tamarack]

9 minutes ago, NW_of_GYX said:

My issue with Subaru's is mostly mechanical. I have never liked the boxer motors, they all feel underpowered and the power bands are funky. Plus they all inevitably end up with terrible heat shield rattles and I've had two that blew the head gaskets. The straight 4s in the yotas and hondas just feel way better to me and have a much longer tack record of longevity and performance. 

I've read laments about the Boxer, mainly due to noise.  Since getting our 1st Subaru in 1991 - the old Loyale though back then it was just "Subaru" - we're on #6, all purchased used, and have had almost no issues with the engine itself in 550k miles.  #4, a 1999 Outback, blew a head gasket but it was also our only near-lemon, had several other major repairs plus being a bullseye for other vehicles and deer.  Last 2 were Foresters and we've not put much money beyond ordinary maintenance.  (Except for a November collision but that wasn't the vehicle's fault.)

[PhineasC]

2 hours ago, powderfreak said:

That list surprised me on an aside, ha.  Figured Subaru would be #1-5.  Reading into it there's still a lot of farm and manual labor, construction, in the rest of the state etc that overwhelms the Subaru numbers around Burlington.  And Subaru doesn't make a working truck.

I suspect that list would be the same just about everywhere in America. We buy a lot of trucks. 

[mreaves]

2 hours ago, PhineasC said:

Some of these really bad mud roads need to be paved, but if it's anything like over this way, it's these same older locals with a green conservation bent who block it time and again. That's what happens in Randolph, at least.

It really isn't that simple though.  In order to have a decent paved road, you have to have a good base that drains water.  That requires a lot of excavation and bringing in the proper fill material.  It gets really expensive and sometimes, it just can't be done because ledge or other physical limitations.  Pavement can be more expensive to maintain too

[powderfreak]

3 hours ago, NW_of_GYX said:

headed to Jay this afternoon. Hoping for some upslope magic tomorrow night. Model spread is pretty wide and BTV is not buying much. If you guys in VT could cue up some fake snow for me that would be great. 

12z GFS is interesting... it has a nice swath of what verbatim would be half a foot of paste rolling through above 2,500ft.

Might get interesting in the Northern Greens...

[NW_of_GYX]

25 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

12z GFS is interesting... it has a nice swath of what verbatim would be half a foot of paste rolling through above 2,500ft.

 

Might get interesting in the Northern Greens...

 

love to see it.

[powderfreak]

8 hours ago, NW_of_GYX said:

love to see it.

It will be very elevation dependent, snow limited to the mid-slopes and higher, like >2500ft to 4000+ at the ski areas.

But healthy signal for mid-level deformation followed by NW upslope flow for the NW Greens and Whites.

Euro now on board with decent QPF signal.

[#NoPoles]

Wtf??? No thank you!!!

[Ginx snewx]

Snowing up high at Stowe this morning on the web cam at Cliff house

[Angus]

LOL. I delayed my departure to SLoaf until tonight b/c today was forecasted to be crappy. Not a cloud in the sky on the webcam at the moment. Tomorrow's forecast isn't as nice and now Tuesday which I was going to take off looks crummy.

[#NoPoles]

Pinwheel of doom season. Spring is such a mentally trying season in New England. I wish it could be as nice as Autumn.

[Ginx snewx]

 

[powderfreak]

Snowing up high with accums mostly 3000ft or higher.  Snow line 2000-2500 but just switched to flakes at 1500ft now leaving the base area.