jculligan Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 24 minutes ago, PhineasC said: Definitely. SSW winds are rough here. These "cutters" hit hard in Randolph under the right conditions. My temp was 51 for hours and hours and then spiked to 60 for a few hours when the rain hit. It's kinda amazing I still have almost full coverage, actually. If it gets warm again for a few days next week this pack is probably toast outside some plow piles. I've been a frequent visitor to the White Mountains since I first arrived as an undergrad at Plymouth State University in the autumn of 2001. I'm sure some folks in here have a better memory than mine, but I'm not sure I've ever witnessed the seasonal snowpack being wiped out in the month of February. There have been years where it took a long time to initially establish the seasonal snowpack...but usually once it's there, it stays through at least the end of March. Last year was perhaps the earliest melt-out I've seen, with the possible exception of 2016. If you lose all of your natural snow next week, that will truly be noteworthy. I don't have official stats to back this up, but...that would be quite a significant deviation from the climatological norm in this area, if not close to unprecedented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backedgeapproaching Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 24 minutes ago, jculligan said: I've been a frequent visitor to the White Mountains since I first arrived as an undergrad at Plymouth State University in the autumn of 2001. I'm sure some folks in here have a better memory than mine, but I'm not sure I've ever witnessed the seasonal snowpack being wiped out in the month of February. There have been years where it took a long time to initially establish the seasonal snowpack...but usually once it's there, it stays through at least the end of March. Last year was perhaps the earliest melt-out I've seen, with the possible exception of 2016. If you lose all of your natural snow next week, that will truly be noteworthy. I don't have official stats to back this up, but...that would be quite a significant deviation from the climatological norm in this area, if not close to unprecedented. I think Will was mentioning something similar several days ago in a post. I think basically along the same lines of having a strong cutter in FEB that brings 60F up to NNH and can wipe out decent snowpack is highly unusual for the time of year. I haven't been on here as much so cant remember exactly what he said as I was just skimming the thread, but think that was the gist of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share Posted February 18, 2022 36 minutes ago, jculligan said: I've been a frequent visitor to the White Mountains since I first arrived as an undergrad at Plymouth State University in the autumn of 2001. I'm sure some folks in here have a better memory than mine, but I'm not sure I've ever witnessed the seasonal snowpack being wiped out in the month of February. There have been years where it took a long time to initially establish the seasonal snowpack...but usually once it's there, it stays through at least the end of March. Last year was perhaps the earliest melt-out I've seen, with the possible exception of 2016. If you lose all of your natural snow next week, that will truly be noteworthy. I don't have official stats to back this up, but...that would be quite a significant deviation from the climatological norm in this area, if not close to unprecedented. Always nice to set records. LOL I figure I am seeing the bottom tier of winters here the last two seasons, and per the record it can only go up from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klw Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 42 minutes ago, jculligan said: I've been a frequent visitor to the White Mountains since I first arrived as an undergrad at Plymouth State University in the autumn of 2001. I'm sure some folks in here have a better memory than mine, but I'm not sure I've ever witnessed the seasonal snowpack being wiped out in the month of February. There have been years where it took a long time to initially establish the seasonal snowpack...but usually once it's there, it stays through at least the end of March. Last year was perhaps the earliest melt-out I've seen, with the possible exception of 2016. If you lose all of your natural snow next week, that will truly be noteworthy. I don't have official stats to back this up, but...that would be quite a significant deviation from the climatological norm in this area, if not close to unprecedented. Not February but the Grinch storm of 2007 wiped out my 23" pack in Bethlehem in a day. I think it was 12/23 give or take a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 25 minutes ago, jculligan said: I've been a frequent visitor to the White Mountains since I first arrived as an undergrad at Plymouth State University in the autumn of 2001. I'm sure some folks in here have a better memory than mine, but I'm not sure I've ever witnessed the seasonal snowpack being wiped out in the month of February. There have been years where it took a long time to initially establish the seasonal snowpack...but usually once it's there, it stays through at least the end of March. Last year was perhaps the earliest melt-out I've seen, with the possible exception of 2016. If you lose all of your natural snow next week, that will truly be noteworthy. I don't have official stats to back this up, but...that would be quite a significant deviation from the climatological norm in this area, if not close to unprecedented. I'd nominate February 1981. My Fort Kent home, then in town at about 550' elev, had 21" on 2/1 and then dropped to zero on 2/22. CAR's February max from 1939 thru 1980 was 49. In 1981 they tied that record twice and exceeded it 7 times, with the month finishing 14.7° AN. They had 11 days with departures of +21 to +29, quite a change from the 33° BN temp and -16 max on January 4. Their 28" pack on 2/1 went to zero on the 23rd. The ice ran on both the Allagash and the St. John, the latter tipping Priestly Bridge into the water, cutting off the St.-Pamphile sawmills from much of their resource area. None of the older folks from the area had ever seen the rivers run before late March. Sharp frontal passage here about 7:45. Winds abruptly backed to NW with brief gusts to mid 30s - 15-25 otherwise. Temp dropped 8° from 7:30 to 8 and by 8:30 skies were PC. Only 0.17" when I emptied the bucket at 8 and no more than a couple cents after that. Lost only 4" pack thanks to the less than expected RA. now at 18". Will need lots of wood ashes on the driveway, though I'll wait a bit for the wind to settle before trying to spread the stuff without it all blowing away. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jculligan Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 12 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said: I think Will was mentioning something similar several days ago in a post. I think basically along the same lines of having a strong cutter in FEB that brings 60F up to NNH and can wipe out decent snowpack is highly unusual for the time of year. I haven't been on here as much so cant remember exactly what he said as I was just skimming the thread, but think that was the gist of it. I think it's a combination of factors. It's somewhat against climatological norms to have a storm track that particular way in the month of February, but even more unusual to have two within a single week. Add a below average snowpack into the mix, and we don't have the normal insurance policy to protect us from snowpack decimation that we normally would. All that being said, I have a suspicion that next week's event will not feature 24+ hours of 40F+ temps in the White Mountains. There are some better indications for low level CAD that were missing in this most recent event. I'm hoping we rot at 32/33F for hours followed by the more typical spike that often accompanies the frontal passage, rather than having an all out torch that lasts for more than a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavisStraight Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, klw said: Not February but the Grinch storm of 2007 wiped out my 23" pack in Bethlehem in a day. I think it was 12/23 give or take a day. It wiped a good pack here too, I think we were at about 20 inches when I got up Christmas morning it was all gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froude Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 Total pack loss here last night with lots of open fields and southerly exposure. Woke up to 3" of new fluff with some sleet on the bottom. Grateful to not have to look at bare ground in mid Feb at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreaves Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 18 minutes ago, Froude said: Total pack loss here last night with lots of open fields and southerly exposure. Woke up to 3" of new fluff with some sleet on the bottom. Grateful to not have to look at bare ground in mid Feb at least. We didn't lose the pack in my immediate area but we only got a dusting of new snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 Hard to tell but it looks like a chunk of lake ice has broken off on Sebago and is being pushed south by the winds. It doesn't look like cloud cover normally looks and it is definitely moving slowly south. Can't say I've ever seen that before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreaves Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 My temp graph from earlier today. Fell off a cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Froude said: Total pack loss here last night with lots of open fields and southerly exposure. Woke up to 3" of new fluff with some sleet on the bottom. Grateful to not have to look at bare ground in mid Feb at least. Nice surface outside of Mountain Ops this morning looking up towards the bottom of Nosedive/Sepps Run.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 Also anyone know what this is? Secondary FROPA that line that swung through very fast on radar? Almost like a gust front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, powderfreak said: Also anyone know what this is? Secondary FROPA that line that swung through very fast on radar? Almost like a gust front? Not moving with the surface flow, so I think it's tied to something higher aloft. It also isn't evident near BTV when you look at various loops, so the radar is only seeing it at higher tilts. It also is meteorological I think, at least CC doesn't look super low like chaff. There's a boundary on WV that looks like it could be pushing through now, like the shortwave trof axis. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share Posted February 18, 2022 Euro looks pretty gross for next week as well. If that verifies as shown, I won't have much snow left at all. These next couple powderpuff events this weekend are not going to build a real sustained pack before the next deluge. I see that BW only has a handful of trails open. That sucks for a busy holiday weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share Posted February 18, 2022 53 minutes ago, powderfreak said: Nice surface outside of Mountain Ops this morning looking up towards the bottom of Nosedive/Sepps Run.... A little grooming will fix that right up. At Cannon, they'd call that "exciting natural conditions" and let 'er rip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 29 minutes ago, PhineasC said: A little grooming will fix that right up. At Cannon, they'd call that "exciting natural conditions" and let 'er rip. I was on the Upper Ravine trail at Cannon mistakenly took a skiers right, onto a black hit that exciting natural condition full bore and slid 1000 ft. Burned holes in my gloves. That was crazy. A total hit or miss mountain no doubt 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 42 minutes ago, PhineasC said: Euro looks pretty gross for next week as well. If that verifies as shown, I won't have much snow left at all. These next couple powderpuff events this weekend are not going to build a real sustained pack before the next deluge. I see that BW only has a handful of trails open. That sucks for a busy holiday weekend. Received some interesting communication about this. Several trails are closed for grooming; they did not want to groom this morning due to the timing of the frontal passage, which in order to open trails would have forced to groom before the freeze resulting in extremely packed conditions. Instead, they chose to keep the trails closed, let them freeze solid and then reopen after they've been groomed - plus some snowmaking. I actually think decisions like that are what makes this mountain so much better; I've seen plenty of times groom at Cannon with temperature in the 40s ahead of a cold front, and then the next day those trails were unskiable. This allows them to do it right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 12 minutes ago, alex said: Received some interesting communication about this. Several trails are closed for grooming; they did not want to groom this morning due to the timing of the frontal passage, which in order to open trails would have forced to groom before the freeze resulting in extremely packed conditions. Instead, they chose to keep the trails closed, let them freeze solid and then reopen after they've been groomed - plus some snowmaking. I actually think decisions like that are what makes this mountain so much better; I've seen plenty of times groom at Cannon with temperature in the 40s ahead of a cold front, and then the next day those trails were unskiable. This allows them to do it right. We were only at like 30 trails or lower today out of 120 for that exact reason. It’s a very common practice. You never groom in the rain as a rule of thumb. Yesterday I was in a meeting about what to do about today and there’s actually a lot of thought that goes into it. I figured it looked like snowcats could get on the hill by 5am or so. We took a 6 acre per hour grooming rate per operator and wanted to get at least 150 acres open of beginner/intermediate terrain. Then decided yesterday morning to delay opening until 10am today… 5 operators, 5 hours, at 6 acres/hr gets that 150 acres. Operations teams do think about this stuff quite a bit… not just throwing darts randomly haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwt3650 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, powderfreak said: We were only at like 30 trails or lower today out of 120 for that exact reason. It’s a very common practice. You never groom in the rain as a rule of thumb. Yesterday I was in a meeting about what to do about today and there’s actually a lot of thought that goes into it. I figured it looked like snowcats could get on the hill by 5am or so. We took a 6 acre per hour grooming rate per operator and wanted to get at least 150 acres open of beginner/intermediate terrain. Then decided yesterday morning to delay opening until 10am today… 5 operators, 5 hours, at 6 acres/hr gets that 150 acres. Operations teams do think about this stuff quite a bit… not just throwing darts randomly haha. This has to be close to an all time worst for Presidents’ Day weekend. 30 trails at Stowe in mid feb is unheard of…and people will pack them no matter what tomorrow. Really terrible stretch. I have to hope the rubber band will snap and March will rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreaves Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 35 minutes ago, powderfreak said: Yesterday I was in a meeting about what to do about today and there’s actually a lot of thought that goes into it. Was crying and throwing a hissy fit ruled out? If so, then obviously no one else in that meeting reads this forum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreaves Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 25 minutes ago, bwt3650 said: This has to be close to an all time worst for Presidents’ Day weekend. 30 trails at Stowe in mid feb is unheard of…and people will pack them no matter what tomorrow. Really terrible stretch. I have to hope the rubber band will snap and March will rock. Not that it doesn't suck but I think he was saying that they closed them in order to groom and snowmake on them in order to get them ready for the weekend. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Ginx snewx said: I was on the Upper Ravine trail at Cannon mistakenly took a skiers right, onto a black hit that exciting natural condition full bore and slid 1000 ft. Burned holes in my gloves. That was crazy. A total hit or miss mountain no doubt Yep, easy to get in to trouble there. We prefer Wildcat to Cannon, but both mountains have some really intimidating terrain literally right off the main path and not the best signage system sometimes. I frequently see beginner skiers stuck on the runs under the lifts at wildcat, which are all pretty rough. It's easy to make a wrong turn off a blue or even a green and end up on icy steep bumps with boulders sticking out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, alex said: Received some interesting communication about this. Several trails are closed for grooming; they did not want to groom this morning due to the timing of the frontal passage, which in order to open trails would have forced to groom before the freeze resulting in extremely packed conditions. Instead, they chose to keep the trails closed, let them freeze solid and then reopen after they've been groomed - plus some snowmaking. I actually think decisions like that are what makes this mountain so much better; I've seen plenty of times groom at Cannon with temperature in the 40s ahead of a cold front, and then the next day those trails were unskiable. This allows them to do it right. Oh yeah, that's part of the BW difference. Cannon would have groomed at 6 PM yesterday and just let it rip this morning. Seen that pattern many times there. Always obvious which mountains groom in the AM and which mostly groom right after closing the day before. I figured the closings were more about grooming versus lack of snow. The manmade trails all have a thick base that could have stood up to this event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, PhineasC said: Euro looks pretty gross for next week as well. If that verifies as shown, I won't have much snow left at all. These next couple powderpuff events this weekend are not going to build a real sustained pack before the next deluge. I see that BW only has a handful of trails open. That sucks for a busy holiday weekend. I wouldn't really care about the torch with what the euro is advertising for Friday. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwt3650 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 36 minutes ago, mreaves said: Not that it doesn't suck but I think he was saying that they closed them in order to groom and snowmake on them in order to get them ready for the weekend. No, I agree. But to even be in that position in mid feb here has got to be rare. And even so, I would guess it’s snowmaking trails only this weekend. I saw what anything with pitch or natural was like before this storm so I can’t imagine any of those being open. There’s just no room to maneuver when someone stops right in the middle of a trail or is cutting across right now. It was a real uncomfortable feeling. You kind of have to own it going down and dig your turns, which makes stoping so much more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share Posted February 18, 2022 26 minutes ago, dendrite said: I wouldn't really care about the torch with what the euro is advertising for Friday. Would be nice to get back a foot of pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wx2fish Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 Seems like quite the mess up in Pittsburg. Lots of flooded trails from runoff, stuck sleds and some water rescues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share Posted February 18, 2022 3 minutes ago, wx2fish said: Seems like quite the mess up in Pittsburg. Lots of flooded trails from runoff, stuck sleds and some water rescues. Water rescues and massive flooding. Ah... February in NNE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreaves Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 31 minutes ago, wx2fish said: Seems like quite the mess up in Pittsburg. Lots of flooded trails from runoff, stuck sleds and some water rescues. Who is even out riding? That's just crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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