The 2021-2022 Ski season thread

[Skivt2]

[HoarfrostHubb]

Here we go!

[bwt3650]

The official countdown begins!  Can’t wait.

[PhineasC]

Getting excited here. Plan to ski 5 days a week December to April. 

[bwt3650]

5 hours ago, PhineasC said:

Getting excited here. Plan to ski 5 days a week December to April. 

Get up to jay this year and live the upslope dream.

[PhineasC]

1 hour ago, bwt3650 said:

Get up to jay this year and live the upslope dream.

That’s on the agenda. We ended up with 160” or so in Randolph this winter so it turned out OK. We needed more coastals over this way. But it was still a great winter. Plan to ski half the winter at Wildcat. Have season passes there, BW, and Cannon. We are getting stoked. 

[bwt3650]

14 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

That’s on the agenda. We ended up with 160” or so in Randolph this winter so it turned out OK. We needed more coastals over this way. But it was still a great winter. Plan to ski half the winter at Wildcat. Have season passes there, BW, and Cannon. We are getting stoked. 

Our season was decent, but most of April was crap and up there, that should still be a solid month.  I think we finished with a little under 300”.  We need a nice solid start this year and no grinch.

 

Wildcat and cannon are on my agenda this season .  Never been, but want to venture into New Hampshire this year.

[PhineasC]

9 minutes ago, bwt3650 said:

Our season was decent, but most of April was crap and up there, that should still be a solid month.  I think we finished with a little under 300”.  We need a nice solid start this year and no grinch.

 

Wildcat and cannon are on my agenda this season .  Never been, but want to venture into New Hampshire this year.

Is that at the summit or at your place? I didn’t think your place itself was that high. 

[bwt3650]

1 hour ago, PhineasC said:

Is that at the summit or at your place? I didn’t think your place itself was that high. 

I just checked and 306 was the mountain’s official number.  Not sure where they measure at, but I doubt it’s up on that ridge at 3900’ with all the wind exposure.  I’m at around 1900’ give or take so I’d guess my actual backyard number was mid 200s.  The base/summit number spread isn’t as big at jay as it is at some of the southern Vt. Mountains being so far north, but obviously, still there.  I’m not there the whole winter so I’ll never get a true accurate number.  I’m sure @powderfreakcould speak to the base/summit spread at Stowe, which I would think would be greater, but in the same ballpark, as jay.

[J.Spin]

8 hours ago, bwt3650 said:

I just checked and 306 was the mountain’s official number.  Not sure where they measure at, but I doubt it’s up on that ridge at 3900’ with all the wind exposure.  I’m at around 1900’ give or take so I’d guess my actual backyard number was mid 200s.  The base/summit number spread isn’t as big at jay as it is at some of the southern Vt. Mountains being so far north, but obviously, still there.  I’m not there the whole winter so I’ll never get a true accurate number.  I’m sure @powderfreakcould speak to the base/summit spread at Stowe, which I would think would be greater, but in the same ballpark, as jay.

I think I recall PF saying that more upslope actually enhances the difference in snowfall between base and summit elevations, due to the effect of the high ratio snow.  We’ve got a discussion about it around somewhere, so I’ll see if I can find it.  It’s hard to imagine the summit/base snowfall difference being greater at the SVT resorts though – with the relatively low snowfall numbers to begin with, they’d probably be looking at <100” of snow a season for the base areas, and that just doesn’t seem very practical.

My quick recollection for Jay Peak would be that the annual snowfall at the base elevations is in the 200-250” range, but I’ll look around for the numbers we used in our discussions.

[J.Spin]

11 hours ago, bwt3650 said:

I just checked and 306 was the mountain’s official number.  Not sure where they measure at, but I doubt it’s up on that ridge at 3900’ with all the wind exposure.  I’m at around 1900’ give or take so I’d guess my actual backyard number was mid 200s.  The base/summit number spread isn’t as big at jay as it is at some of the southern Vt. Mountains being so far north, but obviously, still there.  I’m not there the whole winter so I’ll never get a true accurate number.  I’m sure @powderfreakcould speak to the base/summit spread at Stowe, which I would think would be greater, but in the same ballpark, as jay.

OK, I found the discussion that dove heavily into the differences between base and summit snowfall numbers for the Northern Greens.  It was actually over in the Liftlines Skiing & Snowboard Forums at First Tracks!! Online Ski Magazine.  The discussion began because Jay Peak recorded the most snowfall of any mountain in the lower 48 states during the 2014-2015 season:

https://skivermont.com/skivt-blog/2015/04/13/ski-vermont-receives-most-snow-in-continental-us-during-2014-15-season/

Actually, Jay’s reported snowfall was only 357” that season, but all of the Western U.S. outside of Alaska had a rather poor winter in terms of snow.  Looking through Tony Crocker’s numbers for the 2014-2015 ski season, even snowfall heavyweights like Alta and Grand Targhee were just pushing a bit above the 300” mark.  Alyeska still recorded 478” of snowfall at their 2,750’ plot though, so that area was probably tops overall in the U.S.

The snowiest season I can recall at Jay Peak was 2000-2001 when they recorded 513”, and I believe that was the same situation.  I think that number beat out all the resorts in the lower 48 states, but again not Alyeska, which recorded 638” at the 1,400’ elevation.  For some reason, Tony has 581” listed for Jay Peak in his 2000-2001 Ski Season Summary, so I’m not sure if he had to extrapolate some sort of summit number from a mid-elevation number, but he has the 513” number on his 2000-2001 Ski Season Analysis Page.  In either case, it wouldn’t top Alyeska’s number, so it would remain a similar situation to 2014-2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Peak_Resort#Snowfall

So, in terms of the base vs. summit snowfall differential, what came up in the First Tracks discussion were a couple of things.  There was confusion about where Jay Peak actually records their “summit” snowfall numbers.  It’s obviously not the actual summit of Jay Peak, since like Mt. Mansfield, that’s just a windswept area of rocks.  The collection spot is likely in a protected, leeward spot (or spots) near summit elevation where the summit snow collects.  It would be a spot like PF’s 3,000’ snow plot, or where the Mt. Mansfield Stake sits at 3,700’.  Unfortunately, Jay Peak doesn’t have a PF like Stowe does, or even a measurement camera like Sugarbush and Stowe are starting to use, so their actual system of measurement is rather obscure.

The second thing that came up in the discussion, and what also helped drive the discussion toward the details about base/summit snowfall differentials, was the snowfall at Mont Sutton, which is just a bit to the north of Jay Peak across the Canada-U.S. border.  People (Tony initially broached the topic) were confused as to why the annual snowfall totals (200” at Sutton) simply seem to fall off a cliff as you head north of the border.  The difference between reported snowfall at Jay and Sutton is so stark, that people thought Sutton might be reporting base area snowfall.

Anyway, eventually PF made it to the conversation, and talked thoroughly about the cause of the snowfall differential between the upper and lower mountain areas in the Northern Greens.  I’d already pointed out in the thread that the big differential is not due to an elevational rain/snow line, and PF came in to explain some very cool upslope stuff involving snow ratios, relative humidity, and mountain orographics that only someone like him would piece together.  If you like the meteorology aspects of mountain weather, especially as it pertains to snowfall, definitely check out the thread (linked below) and PF’s contributions.

In terms of rough upper mountain/lower mountain snowfall differential numbers, here’s a quote from PF in that discussion:

“I've done the numbers before and regardless of the type of winter, the upper mountain plot (3,014ft) will receive somewhere between 30-40% more than the base at 1,550ft.  It’s almost fail-proof.  If the upper plot gets 300", the base will be around 200" or at least that's the general association.”

I suspect PF will jump into this discussion at some point, so if people have questions or want to expand on that discussion at First Tracks, we can do it here.

Here’s the link to that thread:

https://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11837

[bwt3650]

On 8/2/2021 at 10:30 AM, J.Spin said:

OK, I found the discussion that dove heavily into the differences between base and summit snowfall numbers for the Northern Greens.  It was actually over in the Liftlines Skiing & Snowboard Forums at First Tracks!! Online Ski Magazine.  The discussion began because Jay Peak recorded the most snowfall of any mountain in the lower 48 states during the 2014-2015 season:

https://skivermont.com/skivt-blog/2015/04/13/ski-vermont-receives-most-snow-in-continental-us-during-2014-15-season/

Actually, Jay’s reported snowfall was only 357” that season, but all of the Western U.S. outside of Alaska had a rather poor winter in terms of snow.  Looking through Tony Crocker’s numbers for the 2014-2015 ski season, even snowfall heavyweights like Alta and Grand Targhee were just pushing a bit above the 300” mark.  Alyeska still recorded 478” of snowfall at their 2,750’ plot though, so that area was probably tops overall in the U.S.

The snowiest season I can recall at Jay Peak was 2000-2001 when they recorded 513”, and I believe that was the same situation.  I think that number beat out all the resorts in the lower 48 states, but again not Alyeska, which recorded 638” at the 1,400’ elevation.  For some reason, Tony has 581” listed for Jay Peak in his 2000-2001 Ski Season Summary, so I’m not sure if he had to extrapolate some sort of summit number from a mid-elevation number, but he has the 513” number on his 2000-2001 Ski Season Analysis Page.  In either case, it wouldn’t top Alyeska’s number, so it would remain a similar situation to 2014-2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Peak_Resort#Snowfall

So, in terms of the base vs. summit snowfall differential, what came up in the First Tracks discussion were a couple of things.  There was confusion about where Jay Peak actually records their “summit” snowfall numbers.  It’s obviously not the actual summit of Jay Peak, since like Mt. Mansfield, that’s just a windswept area of rocks.  The collection spot is likely in a protected, leeward spot (or spots) near summit elevation where the summit snow collects.  It would be a spot like PF’s 3,000’ snow plot, or where the Mt. Mansfield Stake sits at 3,700’.  Unfortunately, Jay Peak doesn’t have a PF like Stowe does, or even a measurement camera like Sugarbush and Stowe are starting to use, so their actual system of measurement is rather obscure.

The second thing that came up in the discussion, and what also helped drive the discussion toward the details about base/summit snowfall differentials, was the snowfall at Mont Sutton, which is just a bit to the north of Jay Peak across the Canada-U.S. border.  People (Tony initially broached the topic) were confused as to why the annual snowfall totals (200” at Sutton) simply seem to fall off a cliff as you head north of the border.  The difference between reported snowfall at Jay and Sutton is so stark, that people thought Sutton might be reporting base area snowfall.

Anyway, eventually PF made it to the conversation, and talked thoroughly about the cause of the snowfall differential between the upper and lower mountain areas in the Northern Greens.  I’d already pointed out in the thread that the big differential is not due to an elevational rain/snow line, and PF came in to explain some very cool upslope stuff involving snow ratios, relative humidity, and mountain orographics that only someone like him would piece together.  If you like the meteorology aspects of mountain weather, especially as it pertains to snowfall, definitely check out the thread (linked below) and PF’s contributions.

In terms of rough upper mountain/lower mountain snowfall differential numbers, here’s a quote from PF in that discussion:

“I've done the numbers before and regardless of the type of winter, the upper mountain plot (3,014ft) will receive somewhere between 30-40% more than the base at 1,550ft.  It’s almost fail-proof.  If the upper plot gets 300", the base will be around 200" or at least that's the general association.”

I suspect PF will jump into this discussion at some point, so if people have questions or want to expand on that discussion at First Tracks, we can do it here.

Here’s the link to that thread:

https://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11837

Just read through that thread...Great discussion.  

[LongBeachSurfFreak]

On 8/2/2021 at 10:30 AM, J.Spin said:

OK, I found the discussion that dove heavily into the differences between base and summit snowfall numbers for the Northern Greens.  It was actually over in the Liftlines Skiing & Snowboard Forums at First Tracks!! Online Ski Magazine.  The discussion began because Jay Peak recorded the most snowfall of any mountain in the lower 48 states during the 2014-2015 season:

https://skivermont.com/skivt-blog/2015/04/13/ski-vermont-receives-most-snow-in-continental-us-during-2014-15-season/

Actually, Jay’s reported snowfall was only 357” that season, but all of the Western U.S. outside of Alaska had a rather poor winter in terms of snow.  Looking through Tony Crocker’s numbers for the 2014-2015 ski season, even snowfall heavyweights like Alta and Grand Targhee were just pushing a bit above the 300” mark.  Alyeska still recorded 478” of snowfall at their 2,750’ plot though, so that area was probably tops overall in the U.S.

The snowiest season I can recall at Jay Peak was 2000-2001 when they recorded 513”, and I believe that was the same situation.  I think that number beat out all the resorts in the lower 48 states, but again not Alyeska, which recorded 638” at the 1,400’ elevation.  For some reason, Tony has 581” listed for Jay Peak in his 2000-2001 Ski Season Summary, so I’m not sure if he had to extrapolate some sort of summit number from a mid-elevation number, but he has the 513” number on his 2000-2001 Ski Season Analysis Page.  In either case, it wouldn’t top Alyeska’s number, so it would remain a similar situation to 2014-2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Peak_Resort#Snowfall

So, in terms of the base vs. summit snowfall differential, what came up in the First Tracks discussion were a couple of things.  There was confusion about where Jay Peak actually records their “summit” snowfall numbers.  It’s obviously not the actual summit of Jay Peak, since like Mt. Mansfield, that’s just a windswept area of rocks.  The collection spot is likely in a protected, leeward spot (or spots) near summit elevation where the summit snow collects.  It would be a spot like PF’s 3,000’ snow plot, or where the Mt. Mansfield Stake sits at 3,700’.  Unfortunately, Jay Peak doesn’t have a PF like Stowe does, or even a measurement camera like Sugarbush and Stowe are starting to use, so their actual system of measurement is rather obscure.

The second thing that came up in the discussion, and what also helped drive the discussion toward the details about base/summit snowfall differentials, was the snowfall at Mont Sutton, which is just a bit to the north of Jay Peak across the Canada-U.S. border.  People (Tony initially broached the topic) were confused as to why the annual snowfall totals (200” at Sutton) simply seem to fall off a cliff as you head north of the border.  The difference between reported snowfall at Jay and Sutton is so stark, that people thought Sutton might be reporting base area snowfall.

Anyway, eventually PF made it to the conversation, and talked thoroughly about the cause of the snowfall differential between the upper and lower mountain areas in the Northern Greens.  I’d already pointed out in the thread that the big differential is not due to an elevational rain/snow line, and PF came in to explain some very cool upslope stuff involving snow ratios, relative humidity, and mountain orographics that only someone like him would piece together.  If you like the meteorology aspects of mountain weather, especially as it pertains to snowfall, definitely check out the thread (linked below) and PF’s contributions.

In terms of rough upper mountain/lower mountain snowfall differential numbers, here’s a quote from PF in that discussion:

“I've done the numbers before and regardless of the type of winter, the upper mountain plot (3,014ft) will receive somewhere between 30-40% more than the base at 1,550ft.  It’s almost fail-proof.  If the upper plot gets 300", the base will be around 200" or at least that's the general association.”

I suspect PF will jump into this discussion at some point, so if people have questions or want to expand on that discussion at First Tracks, we can do it here.

Here’s the link to that thread:

https://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11837

I just read the thread and do not see an explanation for the difference between Jay and Sutton. Care to elaborate? My guess would be Jays closer proximity to lake enhancement?

[bwt3650]

4 hours ago, LongBeachSurfFreak said:

I just read the thread and do not see an explanation for the difference between Jay and Sutton. Care to elaborate? My guess would be Jays closer proximity to lake enhancement?

There’s some discussion about the additional 900+- feet of elevation and how up high, the higher rh leads to increased totals (see Pf’s explanation in the thread) on this, as well as where the measurements took place; with Sutton measuring near the base at 1800 feet in a “box” vs. snow board.  I would also think very slight differences in topography could result in some decent differences in totals when you multiply that over the course of a season.  Jspin will correct/elaborate I’m sure.

I’ve learned in the short time I’ve had a place up there and spent significant time up there last winter, the actual number, inflated or not, is irrelevant because they will always be near the top anywhere east of the Rockies.

and of course, the jay peak ruler.

[powderfreak]

4 hours ago, LongBeachSurfFreak said:

I just read the thread and do not see an explanation for the difference between Jay and Sutton. Care to elaborate? My guess would be Jays closer proximity to lake enhancement?

Sutton on GoogleMaps looks to be located between say 400m and 900m (really might be 850m) in elevation.  That equates to 1,300ft to 2,900ft in elevation.  That's a significantly lower elevation for a ski area.  A 2,500ft snow measurement probably describes a good bit of it to be honest.  There is a non-noticeable amount of snowfall possible on average between that and above that.  All else aside.

 

[bwt3650]

15 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Sutton on GoogleMaps looks to be located between say 400m and 900m (really might be 850m) in elevation.  That equates to 1,300ft to 2,900ft in elevation.  That's a significantly lower elevation for a ski area.  A 2,500ft snow measurement probably describes a good bit of it to be honest.  There is a non-noticeable amount of snowfall possible on average between that and above that.  All else aside.

 

Angle the mountain is with the wind slamming into it have any effect?  I just think about the difference in the wind riding up the jet on stateside vs. the freezer.  To the right of the freezer is wide open after about tower 15 and the wind direction and intensity is completely different.

 

 

[powderfreak]

I assume Jay Peak is reporting or stating snowfall of at least 3,000ft in elevation possibly 3,500ft or even higher.  If you ski glades right under the tram that snow is always very deep.  I know some of the folks at Jay and have watched for a long time, along with knowing how Stowe was prior to I really wanted to normalize it a decade ago, and the snow may not necessarily be "measured"... at either location.  It's hard to know.  Estimating snowfall by skiing/riding and just a general feeling of it can be misleading at times.  It's not even that wrong, but ski area reporting was for a long time (and still is at some spots) a more estimation and overall "feel" than it is actual stationary measurement.

Even if a ski area marketing or snow reporter calls Ski Patrol for snowfall when they can't get out at that moment... often that data is "someone just skied trail XYZ and said 2-4 inches, of course it's blowing around and hard to tell."  It always ends with "it's hard to tell" which is honest too.  But that can end up on some snow reports, and it's not even necessarily wrong.  If the skier and rider, customer, enjoys what they also think is 2-4 inches blown around, it's good.  Maybe you had a controlled site and it was 1.5" but 4" was added to the season total because it skied like 2-4 inches.  That happens without a permanent mark to measure against.  But, does it matter or is it wrong if the day's skiers agree it skis like 2-4"?  I don't think so to be honest, it's just a different metric.

I'm a snow weenie.  I've got a few other folks hooked on creating a longer standardized record on Mt Mansfield, the history of the mountain seems to inspire participation.  Hopefully it can continue.

But despite the differences in the ways the seasonal totals are arrived at, in a whole spine of ski areas, they fit meteorologically in the larger picture of the Green Mountain and New England climate.

[powderfreak]

5 minutes ago, bwt3650 said:

Angle the mountain is with the wind slamming into it have any effect?  I just think about the difference in the wind riding up the jet on stateside vs. the freezer.  To the right of the freezer is wide open after about tower 15 and the wind direction and intensity is completely different.

 

 

Yeah for sure, nice observation.  Wind in the terrain is paramount, along with and inversion wind shift height.  The Jay Range and Cold Hollow Mtns just south have a lot of nook and cranny type snow spots.  The gaps in the Spine seem to help compared to the wall at times.

[powderfreak]

The trail mowing starting by Mountain Ops is a fun benchmark.

It's the first real step towards the new ski season.

[Baroclinic Zone]

51 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Sutton on GoogleMaps looks to be located between say 400m and 900m (really might be 850m) in elevation.  That equates to 1,300ft to 2,900ft in elevation.  That's a significantly lower elevation for a ski area.  A 2,500ft snow measurement probably describes a good bit of it to be honest.  There is a non-noticeable amount of snowfall possible on average between that and above that.  All else aside.

 

Fond memories of skiing there my senior year of HS in 1991/92.  Young reckless teens ducking in the woods run after run to find the gnarliest chutes/cliffs to ski down/off.  Trying to act like we were Scot Schmidt.

[J.Spin]

5 hours ago, LongBeachSurfFreak said:

I just read the thread and do not see an explanation for the difference between Jay and Sutton. Care to elaborate? My guess would be Jays closer proximity to lake enhancement?

 

49 minutes ago, bwt3650 said:

There’s some discussion about the additional 900+- feet of elevation and how up high, the higher rh leads to increased totals (see Pf’s explanation in the thread) on this, as well as where the measurements took place; with Sutton measuring near the base at 1800 feet in a “box” vs. snow board.  I would also think very slight differences in topography could result in some decent differences in totals when you multiply that over the course of a season.  Jspin will correct/elaborate I’m sure.

Yeah, I’d say bwt’s and PF’s comments here help clarify it, and Tony’s got those hard numbers on the last page of that Liftlines thread from 40 years of snow data that Mont Sutton gave him.  The largest discrepancy in the numbers seemed to be due to the fact that Mont Sutton has traditionally been measuring snowfall at their base – and it’s a relatively low base at 1,300’.  On top of that, if they were collecting in a walled, “box-style” container, that can have undercatch issues as well.  So, from what I’m seeing in the provided data, the best numbers on Mont Sutton for annual snowfall are:

1,300’:  184”

2,500’:  238”

2,900’:  250”

3,900’:  ???”

I’m assuming that 2,500’ for the “mid mountain” elevation, since I saw PF using it, but I’m not sure what’s considered “mid mountain” there.  The reason the final number in my list above is only question marks is simple:  Mont Sutton just doesn’t go that high.  So think about that elevation difference between Jay Peak and Mont Sutton - Jay Peak has another thousand feet of vertical on Mont Sutton, and most of us assume that Jay Peak is measuring their summit snowfall numbers somewhere in leeward spots up near that 3,900’ elevation.  What would Mont Sutton be recording for annual snowfall up near 3,900’ if they had that extra thousand feet of vertical?  Perhaps something near 300”?  It’s hard to say though; the orientation of the mountain and the local topography can make huge differences in snow accumulations, and everything suggests that Jay Peak has some serious optimization in that regard.

Also note, as much as the annual snowfall totals seem to increase like clockwork as you head from south to north in Vermont, it’s not as if annual snowfall totals simply keep increasing as one continues to head north of the border.  The totals increase all the way up the Green Mountain Spine until you get to Jay Peak, and then they start to drop off as you head north into the resorts of the Eastern Townships.  Right over the border you’ve got Mont Sutton that may get 250” at their summit, farther off to the east there’s Owl’s Head that reports 175”, and head another hour north to Mont Orford and they report just 140” for annual snowfall.  I can also say from first hand evidence of skiing all three of those Eastern Townships areas in a single trip, that the actual snow conditions and snowpack played out exactly as those annual snowfall numbers would suggest.  Mont Sutton was by far the best in terms of snow, Owl’s Head represented a substantial drop from there, and then Mont Orford’s snow was definitely the worst.

Once you head north of the Northern Greens, the next segment of the Green Mountains is the Canadian Green Mountains (click the link to see the area highlighted at Peakbagger).  Why does annual snowfall drop off so drastically as one continues north of the border in the Canadian Greens?  There are probably a number of reasons, but elevations only top out around 3,000’ in that area as we see for Mont Sutton, so that’s probably a factor.  The Canadian Greens could be a bit more removed from Atlantic moisture, they may lack as much access to Great Lakes moisture, perhaps their orientation and topography are not as good, etc.  I’m sure that’s another fun topic for conversation.

On a final note, as much as a 250” annual snowfall number for Mont Sutton may seem a bit weak compared to its neighbor Jay Peak, it should be pointed out that 250” is way up there on a regional scale.  You’re not going to find an annual snowfall number like that anywhere in the Eastern U.S. outside of the Northern and Central Greens.  I’d guess Balsams might be in that range if they were in operation, but Mont Sutton is the only one I can think of around here.

[powderfreak]

12 hours ago, J.Spin said:

 So, from what I’m seeing in the provided data, the best numbers on Mont Sutton for annual snowfall are:

1,300’:  184”

2,500’:  238”

2,900’:  250”

3,900’:  ???”

 

This seems very reasonable and would likely yield close to 300" IF the terrain there went up higher.  That 2,900ft number is not much different than 3,000ft on Mansfield the longer we run it out.  We've seen everything from 150s in 2015-16 to 375" in 2016-17 at 3,000ft.... but most years the past decade have been mid-200s.

But go up another 500-1,000ft is where you start to get into that next level stuff.

I still truly believe that a lot of our snowfall comes in relatively dry air masses or fighting dry boundary layer air... the nickle and dime stuff especially... that all orographic's aside, just going upward in the atmosphere will produce more QPF, better flake structure (longer arms that haven't shriveled up falling another 2-3,000ft downward) and more inches of snowfall.  I think about it every time it's snowing nicely at 1,500ft but then ride the Gondola to 3,600ft walk out of the Cliff House and it's like really snowing.  Flakes are bigger, stacking better, and then you ski down and the snowfall gradually lightens up just a bit as the Temp/dew spread increases slightly and RH dries out a bit.

[tamarack]

For winters 1988-89 thru 2012-13 the Jay Peak co-op at 1,875' averaged 228" - the extremes 343" in 00-01 and 103" in 11-12.  Last full month on my records was Jan. 2014, followed by end-of-month depth numbers then nothing.  Have not re-checked since then to see if the co-op is back in operation. 

[J.Spin]

6 hours ago, tamarack said:

For winters 1988-89 thru 2012-13 the Jay Peak co-op at 1,875' averaged 228" - the extremes 343" in 00-01 and 103" in 11-12.  Last full month on my records was Jan. 2014, followed by end-of-month depth numbers then nothing.  Have not re-checked since then to see if the co-op is back in operation. 

 

7 hours ago, powderfreak said:

We've seen everything from 150s in 2015-16 to 375" in 2016-17 at 3,000ft.... but most years the past decade have been mid-200s.

But go up another 500-1,000ft is where you start to get into that next level stuff.

I’d forgotten about that Jay Peak co-op site, so thanks for bringing it up.  I’ve always found that the data from that site simply reinforce the season snowfall totals from Jay Peak Resort.  PF’s meticulous observations from Mt. Mansfield and the elevation-dependent snowfall discussion we’ve had at Liftlines and here are the perfect primers for people to make the connection.  A 40% increase in snowfall at PF’s ~3,000’ plot over his ~1,500’ plot is certainly within reason based on the numbers he’s discussed.  If you scale that 1,500’ ratio proportionally for the ~2,000’ elevation differential between the Jay Peak co-op and the Jay Peak summit, what do you get? …~350”.  If you ask me, that’s suspiciously consistent with the ~355” season snowfall average that they often report for their summit elevation.  PF literally states in the quote above that the 3,500’ – 4,000’ elevations are where you start to get into that “next level stuff”.  But you know, since it doesn’t happen in everybody’s back yard, I’m sure nobody in the Eastern U.S., especially a greedy, profit-driven, slant-sticking, snowfall-inflating ski resort, can average that much snow in a season.  The numbers must be cooked independently at both the co-op and the resort summit so that they line up perfectly.  That’s how the conspiracy is run up there.

[J.Spin]

On 8/1/2021 at 9:49 PM, bwt3650 said:

Our season was decent, but most of April was crap and up there, that should still be a solid month.  I think we finished with a little under 300”.  We need a nice solid start this year and no grinch.

 

On 8/1/2021 at 10:00 PM, PhineasC said:

Is that at the summit or at your place? I didn’t think your place itself was that high. 

 

On 8/1/2021 at 11:22 PM, bwt3650 said:

I just checked and 306 was the mountain’s official number.  Not sure where they measure at, but I doubt it’s up on that ridge at 3900’ with all the wind exposure.  I’m at around 1900’ give or take so I’d guess my actual backyard number was mid 200s.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 8:26 AM, J.Spin said:

My quick recollection for Jay Peak would be that the annual snowfall at the base elevations is in the 200-250” range, but I’ll look around for the numbers we used in our discussions.

 

6 hours ago, tamarack said:

For winters 1988-89 thru 2012-13 the Jay Peak co-op at 1,875' averaged 228" - the extremes 343" in 00-01 and 103" in 11-12.  Last full month on my records was Jan. 2014, followed by end-of-month depth numbers then nothing.  Have not re-checked since then to see if the co-op is back in operation. 

I was thinking back on this conversation where we were trying to figure out the annual snowfall average for your place at Jay Peak.  I’d totally forgotten about the co-op there, since it’s been out of commission for so long.  That co-op is literally a representation of your back yard, so I think we can thank Tamarack for getting you a hard number on your annual snowfall average.  Our estimates were certainly decent though.

[bwt3650]

21 minutes ago, J.Spin said:

 

But you know, since it doesn’t happen in everybody’s back yard, I’m sure nobody in the Eastern U.S., especially a greedy, profit-driven, slant-sticking, snowfall-inflating ski resort, can average that much snow in a season.  The numbers must be cooked independently at both the co-op and the resort summit so that they line up perfectly.  That’s how the conspiracy is run up there.

that’s some mid season 47 degree, wind swept rainstorm ranting right there!

 

I want to look him straight in the eye and I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is. Hallelujah. Holy shit. Where's the Tylenol?
 

 

[bwt3650]

43 minutes ago, J.Spin said:

 

 

 

 

I was thinking back on this conversation where we were trying to figure out the annual snowfall average for your place at Jay Peak.  I’d totally forgotten about the co-op there, since it’s been out of commission for so long.  That co-op is literally a representation of your back yard, so I think we can thank Tamarack for getting you a hard number on your annual snowfall average.  Our estimates were certainly decent though.

Better than decent!  Good stuff.

[tamarack]

14 hours ago, J.Spin said:

 

I was thinking back on this conversation where we were trying to figure out the annual snowfall average for your place at Jay Peak.  I’d totally forgotten about the co-op there, since it’s been out of commission for so long.  That co-op is literally a representation of your back yard, so I think we can thank Tamarack for getting you a hard number on your annual snowfall average.  Our estimates were certainly decent though.

Just checked the Jay Peak co-op.  Last record was April 2014, with 39" on 4/1 the only entry.  Nothing in 2021, nothing in 2017, nothing in 5/14.  I'm confident it's been offline for 7+ years. 

[amarshall]

Just picked up a new set of Dynastar Mpro 110 leftovers from last year. Trying to figure out what I  want for bindings now .

[powderfreak]

10 hours ago, amarshall said:

Just picked up a new set of Dynastar Mpro 110 leftovers from last year. Trying to figure out what I  want for bindings now .

They make those in a 110?  I thought I’d only seen 90.  That’s got some beef to it if it’s 110!

I just picked up some 180cm Blizzard Rustler 10s from a rep, excited to try them out.