Spring Banter

[mreaves]

3 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Loyalty gets you nothing however. Most companies only see numbers not humans. Corporate America run by hedge funds and greed has ruined any sense if family and Loyalty in many businesses. I don't blame people for moving on.

I was just going to say, where does he think they learned that?  It’s not like there are a lot of companies that are overly loyal either. And I don’t think it’s a chicken and egg thing, we know who crushed the loyalty out of people. 

[RUNNAWAYICEBERG]

9 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Unless you are a person who profits off of commuters. From Restaurants to Bodega to the hot dog stand

True. When lifestyles and the socio economic structure changes, some sectors will always suffer.  But people will continue to spend money. So , adjust to the changing times. Do a mobile hot dog stand, become a delivery only lunch spot, maybe move your expensive urban brick and mortar to a more neutral location being able to attract the city and surburb client, etc. There are ways to counter it by being innovative.  

[PhineasC]

2 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Loyalty gets you nothing however. Most companies only see numbers not humans. Corporate America run by hedge funds and greed has ruined any sense of family and loyalty in many businesses. I don't blame people for moving on.

Loyalty still gets you something at small businesses and if you are climbing the ladder well. If you are strictly a punch the clock guy who cruises at the "generally adequate" level, agree 100%. 

I understand why people job hop, but I have noticed that people have started to turn it into a regular thing versus something that is done situationally. You don't job hop and move laterally. You job hop to move upwards. If I see a resume with a lot of lateral moves, I toss it in the garbage. Most of these people have also priced themselves out of the market with these little hops that didn't move them forward. They were ultimately fruitless.

Don't get me wrong, I employ some mercenaries that I do not expect to stay long or show much loyalty. They are here to do a certain thing and then they will get bored and move on once that task is complete. Nothing wrong with that, but they also understand I may drop them at any time too if someone better comes along. It's very common in DoD contracting. Asking about this is part of interviews commonly. Our govt clients ask that question all the time.

 

 

 

[PhineasC]

4 minutes ago, mreaves said:

I was just going to say, where does he think they learned that?  It’s not like there are a lot of companies that are overly loyal either. And I don’t think it’s a chicken and egg thing, we know who crushed the loyalty out of people. 

Plenty of 20 somethings applying here who have been job hopping since they were teenagers... 

It's become a cultural thing as much as anything else. These aren't usually rugged and jaded Boomers I am seeing jump all over the place.

[PhineasC]

You guys are out of touch if you think employers running businesses in sectors that are in-demand do not reward loyalty and hard work. Maybe in commodity work like burger flipping and low-skilled labor that is the case. In my biz, we definitely reward hard work with fierce loyalty. Most of our employees have skills that are extremely hard to replace. 

[WxWatcher007]

1 minute ago, weatherwiz said:

I would certainly love to chase a hurricane some day...but after almost dying with Earl I may re-think that lol. 

2010?

I agree with Phin that WFH is tough for a less mature professional. There's a lot that's lost in terms of mentorship and example setting when a new professional or someone that hasn't acquired higher level time management and communication skills. Those first years are really critical, especially in spaces where someone can quickly be overtaken or fall behind due to the pace of the job. The goal should be to become great in a career, not adequate at a job. That requires some discomfort which can be lost when a boss puts you on cruise control in a virtual environment.  

The loyalty piece is interesting. I've kind of always viewed that as conditional. With the exception of one job, I've never really felt the need to island hop jobs because when I interviewed with each I made sure we were both clear on expectations and opportunities for growth. I've turned down much higher paying jobs because a current employer was clearly investing in me via mentorship, challenging work, etc..

It's business at the end of the day, but it's generally a bad idea to jump at the first or second sign of discomfort to make what's basically a lateral move. I see a fairly significant amount of that with some of my cohort. 

[Supernovice]

You want loyalty?
 

Get a dog.

[PhineasC]

Just now, Supernovice said:

You want loyalty?
 

Get a dog.

If you have an in-demand skill and can walk the walk, then being a merc is fine.  Just don’t whine when you suddenly get fired in favor of a better merc. 

[mreaves]

19 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

You guys are out of touch if you think employers running businesses in sectors that are in-demand do not reward loyalty and hard work. Maybe in commodity work like burger flipping and low-skilled labor that is the case. In my biz, we definitely reward hard work with fierce loyalty. Most of our employees have skills that are extremely hard to replace. 

But think about the meat and potato jobs that have been outsourced and downsized or turned into a “gig” rather than a job. That’s the overall lesson that’s been taught. Obviously it is not every company or every sector but it has been pervasive enough to leave an impression on a generation. 

[Ginx snewx]

22 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

You guys are out of touch if you think employers running businesses in sectors that are in-demand do not reward loyalty and hard work. Maybe in commodity work like burger flipping and low-skilled labor that is the case. In my biz, we definitely reward hard work with fierce loyalty. Most of our employees have skills that are extremely hard to replace. 

Until you sell your business then the employees are shit out of luck and it becomes strictly a numbers game with the olds first out the door. You are a minority in the corporate world 

[Cold Miser]

6 hours ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

Work from Home is about cutting costs for businesses ,period . Maybe sold as safety or blah blah but ya it’s money And less costs 

In the not so distant future ..when the costs come down with robotics (And they will ) many jobs will be replaced , especially on the factory floors. There are other sectors to , but the stimulus checks will have more and more political capital to transition into sort of a UBI hybrid . 
 

There are so many fascinating and downright scary directions technology is going rapidly with regarding to A.I. A.I is progressing at such a level that by the time people get around to regulating it , it will be too late due to the exponential rate of A.I- machine learning compared to the rate of regulating (which is usually the result of unwanted deaths )  It sounds wild and very fringy I realize but that particular technology stands to become one of the most Dangerous advances . There will be the incentive (almost from inception) to weaponize A.I . The rate at which this particular technology improves itself seems to be the biggest issue that once the cats out of the bag it’s almost beyond control .
 

Not to be outdone , there is a very well funded drive to sort of create a human / machine Learning  interface that actually sort of “upgrades” you . There is touted to be amazing healing and medical breakthroughs with this sort of technology using a implanted chip w tiny wires placed directly and carefully on the surface of the brain . Fully capable of reversing ailments from cognitive decline to spinal cord injuries to literally conjoining your sort of reality /intelligence abilities into the machine  exponential Learning curve and tapping into that in a way that seems fluid and part of you . It’s a very odd space with some folks who seem very fascinated with pushing the envelope and seemingly throwing caution to the wind . These advances are not extremely well detailed thou you can find executives for certain companies willing to brag about the advances in interviews thou it’s not quite broadcast yet on 60 minutes . This includes more than Elon Musk and Neuralink . If you take a careful look at how fast we have advanced in the last 30 years and look at what the cutting edge is with A.I, autonomous learning , genomics you should not be surprised if 20 years from now the world  really doesn’t closely resemble the one we are living in And that is if things go “well” once this cat is out of the bag .

 

...But  will it give me a bigger penis?

[Ginx snewx]

Just now, mreaves said:

But think about the meat and potato jobs that have been outsourced and downsized or turned into a “gig” rather than a job. That’s the overall lesson that’s been taught. Obviously it is not every company or every sector but it has been pervasive enough to leave an impression on a generation. 

Loyalty is gone. People learn the hard way

[Supernovice]

12 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

If you have an in-demand skill and can walk the walk, then being a merc is fine.  Just don’t whine when you suddenly get fired in favor of a better merc. 

I was obviously like 55% joking but...pretty sure in this case being a mercenary is being a capitalist.  I don’t hate on anyone making whatever career moves they deem positive for themselves. Everyone has their reasons. My top IT guy just gave his notice yesterday a.m. I tried to make him an offer he couldn’t refuse, but money isn’t everything to people. I literally don’t know what I’m going to do w/o him- shit.

 How did we even go down this rabbit hole?

[Bostonseminole]

We have lots of young engineers that have been with us for a few years. Our company builds loyalty by treating their employees well. Pay competitively, good incentive plan, lots of development opportunities and challenging issues to solve. I do think social networks have made it easier to headhunt young talent. I know talented engineers that get calls weekly. We have to be competitive to retain them.


.

[Bostonseminole]

...But  will it give me a bigger penis?

Singularity is coming or Terminator


.

[PhineasC]

21 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Until you sell your business then the employees are shit out of luck and it becomes strictly a numbers game with the olds first out the door. You are a minority in the corporate world 

Yes, that is a bad situation and happens too often. 

[Bostonseminole]

This is weird


.

[PhineasC]

The AI has assumed control. 

[Supernovice]

7 minutes ago, Bostonseminole said:

This is weird


.

 

You’ve been ‘Phin’ this whole time??? What a plot twist

[TauntonBlizzard2013]

1 hour ago, PhineasC said:

There is definitely a generational gap here. Millennials are known for having basically zero loyalty to their employer and being ready to jump at the drop of a hat for even a tiny raise. I could see how someone who views himself as a mercenary wouldn't care about actual team building because he plans to leave within 6 months. He would be content to never see any of his coworkers. People should remember it's a two-way street, however. Don't cry when your employer suddenly drops you like it's hot and upgrades to the guy who covers your tasks and still comes into the office to gel with the team. It would be silly for the employer to pick the WFH guy over that type of person.

Any employee should show zero long term loyalty to an employer in almost all cases. As soon as it becomes convenient, a company won’t hesitate to drop you like a rock, especially if it can save them a dime.

Ask a lot of boomers how that whole loyalty thing has gone over the last 5 or 10 years. My neighbor worked for the same company for over 30 years. Couple years ago, end of the day on a Friday, they laid him off, that was it. 30 years... laid off on a Friday afternoon, no notice, nothing. 
 

The double standard of employer and employee loyalty in the American workforce is absolutely outrageous. The employee is supposed to give at least two weeks notice, preferably longer, while the employer can kick your ass out the door with not notice and that’s it.

At the end of the day, I have to do what’s best for me. I know if my employer could find a way to axe everyone tomorrow, they would.

[PhineasC]

13 minutes ago, TauntonBlizzard2013 said:

Any employee should show zero long term loyalty to an employer in almost all cases. As soon as it becomes convenient, a company won’t hesitate to drop you like a rock, especially if it can save them a dime.

Ask a lot of boomers how that whole loyalty thing has gone over the last 5 or 10 years. My neighbor worked for the same company for over 30 years. Couple years ago, end of the day on a Friday, they laid him off, that was it. 30 years... laid off on a Friday afternoon, no notice, nothing. 
 

The double standard of employer and employee loyalty in the American workforce is absolutely outrageous. The employee is supposed to give at least two weeks notice, preferably longer, while the employer can kick your ass out the door with not notice and that’s it.

At the end of the day, I have to do what’s best for me. I know if my employer could find a way to axe everyone tomorrow, they would.

It seems like we are talking about two different kids of loyalty.

The kind of situation you are talking about where a Boomer worked somewhere for 30 years in the same exact job role before being unceremoniously dumped without a pension happens all the time... because it isn't 1960 anymore. I never suggest someone stay put forever without moving up the ladder. That's not a good plan. I have this dialog all the time with other business leaders in my industry. "Butt in seat" time is no longer what it once was. You need to shake up your career sometimes or you will be overtaken by someone else. That's part of the price of the expended global job market and free trade everyone wanted. 

That said, if you jump, it needs to be a forward move, not a lateral one. A bunch of lateral moves make you look fickle and unable to cope with stress and conflict at work. It's basically the Tinder dating of employment. Just swipe when you are bored of your job or your coworker is being mean.

There is still a strong market for loyal employees with in-demand skillsets and they very quickly climb the ladder and do well. They don't stagnate, so the example of the guy who spent 30 years putting lids on jars during the third shift only to be fired and replaced with a robot doesn't really apply to them.

I don't disagree that the larger job market is more of a commodity deal. People come and go at will. 

[Whineminster]

I'm getting my first shot Sunday..........I don't really want to but society forced me to for fear of ostracization.

[TauntonBlizzard2013]

I mean, it doesn’t get more millennial than me, I just turned 27.

Ive ended up in blue collar work (nothing wrong with that), and acquired licenses and certifications that make me a decent wage. The problem is, is I’ve pretty much maxed out, and this isn’t whT I want to be doing long term.

I have a bachelors degree in criminal justice. I’ve applied to hundreds of CJ type jobs since graduating in 2016... and received a handful of interviews. It is absolutely impossible to break into the field. I had to pivot to what I’m doing now.

Im aware that my long term prospects in what I’m doing now probably aren’t great, but it’s been like banging my head against the wall even trying to get a foot in the door to what I really want to do.

[RUNNAWAYICEBERG]

4 minutes ago, TauntonBlizzard2013 said:

I mean, it doesn’t get more millennial than me, I just turned 27.

Ive ended up in blue collar work (nothing wrong with that), and acquired licenses and certifications that make me a decent wage. The problem is, is I’ve pretty much maxed out, and this isn’t whT I want to be doing long term.

I have a bachelors degree in criminal justice. I’ve applied to hundreds of CJ type jobs since graduating in 2016... and received a handful of interviews. It is absolutely impossible to break into the field. I had to pivot to what I’m doing now.

Im aware that my long term prospects in what I’m doing now probably aren’t great, but it’s been like banging my head against the wall even trying to get a foot in the door to what I really want to do.

Do what you have to do for now but keep grinding at what you really want to do. The uphill battle sucks but Eventually it will be break your way...but you don’t want to look back decades from now wondering what could have been. The most important aspect of any career is loving what you do, that’s it. If you are passionate about your profession,  everything else will fall into place. 

[mreaves]

40 minutes ago, TauntonBlizzard2013 said:

I mean, it doesn’t get more millennial than me, I just turned 27.

Ive ended up in blue collar work (nothing wrong with that), and acquired licenses and certifications that make me a decent wage. The problem is, is I’ve pretty much maxed out, and this isn’t whT I want to be doing long term.

I have a bachelors degree in criminal justice. I’ve applied to hundreds of CJ type jobs since graduating in 2016... and received a handful of interviews. It is absolutely impossible to break into the field. I had to pivot to what I’m doing now.

Im aware that my long term prospects in what I’m doing now probably aren’t great, but it’s been like banging my head against the wall even trying to get a foot in the door to what I really want to do.

I remember suggesting you move up here. The VT State Police are constantly recruiting. 

[Ginx snewx]

7 hours ago, PhineasC said:

It seems like we are talking about two different kids of loyalty.

The kind of situation you are talking about where a Boomer worked somewhere for 30 years in the same exact job role before being unceremoniously dumped without a pension happens all the time... because it isn't 1960 anymore. I never suggest someone stay put forever without moving up the ladder. That's not a good plan. I have this dialog all the time with other business leaders in my industry. "Butt in seat" time is no longer what it once was. You need to shake up your career sometimes or you will be overtaken by someone else. That's part of the price of the expended global job market and free trade everyone wanted. 

That said, if you jump, it needs to be a forward move, not a lateral one. A bunch of lateral moves make you look fickle and unable to cope with stress and conflict at work. It's basically the Tinder dating of employment. Just swipe when you are bored of your job or your coworker is being mean.

There is still a strong market for loyal employees with in-demand skillsets and they very quickly climb the ladder and do well. They don't stagnate, so the example of the guy who spent 30 years putting lids on jars during the third shift only to be fired and replaced with a robot doesn't really apply to them.

I don't disagree that the larger job market is more of a commodity deal. People come and go at will. 

I rose from a firefighter to the Head of Operations of the largest NA museum in the world with multiple ladder steps up. 25 years then boom see ya no severance . My evalutions were always glowing and perfect. The numbers old people game got me and 2 other 25 year plus employees.  Both of whom were top notch people. I wish I worked for Boston Seminole or you. I never saw it coming. Imagine how that feels after literally giving sweat and blood, saving your company millions with energy innovations, preventing loss of business multiple times, responding to emergencies 24/7 365. My loyalty meant nothing.

In retrospect I was naive and had too much faith in an employer who preached loyalty being rewarded. My suggestion to all the young uns. Always always keep your buns in the fire and have a fall back. PS no one wants the olds no matter how much experience you have. Insurance and payroll costs . Ageism is definitely an unreported unrecognized societal norm. 

[BrianW]

I work in a high demand skilled trade and there is still a ton of loyalty in the trades. I have been with my company 12 years. There is such a massive shortage of state licensed electricians, plumbers, hvac, etc. If employees are treated like shit its easy to walk as there are 25 other companies hiring and offering sign on bonuses. My company has to constantly offer better benefits to compete. 

It's like the complete opposite of the corporate office world. 

[Ginx snewx]

17 minutes ago, BrianW said:

I work in a high demand skilled trade and there is still a ton of loyalty in the trades. I have been with my company 12 years. There is such a massive shortage of state licensed electricians, plumbers, hvac, etc. If employees are treated like shit its easy to walk as there are 25 other companies hiring and offering sign on bonuses. My company has to constantly offer better benefits to compete. 

It's like the complete opposite of the corporate office world. 

Absolutely only thing I suggest to you is to eventually get on the management side. Your body won't be able to take the physical beating trades work takes forever. 

[ORH_wxman]

40 minutes ago, BrianW said:

I work in a high demand skilled trade and there is still a ton of loyalty in the trades. I have been with my company 12 years. There is such a massive shortage of state licensed electricians, plumbers, hvac, etc. If employees are treated like shit its easy to walk as there are 25 other companies hiring and offering sign on bonuses. My company has to constantly offer better benefits to compete. 

It's like the complete opposite of the corporate office world. 

Skilled trades are the thing to be in right now for sure. After years of ostracizing carpenters, plumbers, electricians, etc in the 1980s/1990s and telling all the kids back then that they needed to go to college, there is a definite supply shortage of these types of workers and a high demand for them. Especially in a higher educated regions like the greater Boston market or other northeast cities. 

My wife’s younger half-brother lives outside of Philly and he dropped out of high school at 16...then got his now-wife pregnant when he was 18, but went and got his GED and went to trade school to be an electrician. He is now about 25 and makes 6 figures easy. It’s pretty amazing. 

 

[HIPPYVALLEY]

9 hours ago, Whineminster said:

I'm getting my first shot Sunday..........I don't really want to but society forced me to for fear of ostracization.

I think people are bragging that they got their shots but I don’t think many are ostracizing anybody who doesn’t. 
your body your choice!