February the climo snow month

[Greg]

2 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

How the hell do you manipulate snowfall by measuring it every six hours?? Lets stop reporting hourly obs at airports, we don't want to manipulate the thermometer...just give the temp once per day.

By altering what would have naturally settled given the ding conditions, you are therefore manipulating it. The temperature analogy is not a really good analogy to this particular situation. You can give a high and low temp/day, that's fine. 

[powderfreak]

13 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Don't get me started lol

Agree.

I’m with you two.  There has to be a designated time frame and 6-hourlies is what airports did growing up for me.  I think of that as the official way to measure snow.  Or at least twice a day.

[Ginx snewx]

I can't count the amount of storms where snow fell for 12 hrs then changed to rain and melted or was dry and sublimated or blew all around. So 10 inches fell in 6 hrs then melted almost out the next 18 so I only had a half inch. Or my exposed yard, snowboard was wiped clean by incredible winds so after averaging 10 spots I got 3 inches ave when 12 fell. Makes zero sense unless you are measuring depth.

[powderfreak]

2 minutes ago, Greg said:

That's not a really good analogy to this particular situation.

I think of it more as snowfall vs snow depth.  For snowfall you are trying to get a measurement of flakes falling from the sky, whereas depth is what lays on the ground.  You are looking for 24 hour depth.  You can certainly have more snowfall than depth even in 24 hour blocks.

[weathafella]

40 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

I don't envision that happening here...if you want to use a 1/100 yr event as an example, then tip of the cap...I concede. Even the other two....vast majority was in day 1, day two was like several inches over 12+ hrs.

That was my poorly articulated point.

[40/70 Benchmark]

15 minutes ago, Greg said:

That's not a really good analogy to this particular situation.

Sarcasm...whooosh.

The problem with measuring snow depth at any given time and passing it off as snowfall is that you are allowing other aspects of nature to "manipulate" the snowfall. If Wilmington gets 6" Tuesday, then it flips to rain, while Powderfreak and Phin play naked twister in the snow. Are you calling it a whiff when you slumber out of bed at noon on Tuesday to measure and mow the lawn??

[Greg]

1 minute ago, Ginx snewx said:

I can't count the amount of storms where snow fell for 12 hrs then changed to rain and melted or was dry and sublimated or blew all around. So 10 inches fell in 6 hrs then melted almost out the next 18 so I only had a half inch. Or my exposed yard, snowboard was wiped clean by incredible winds so after averaging 10 spots I got 3 inches ave when 12 fell. Makes zero sense unless you are measuring depth.

What you just stated is correct in that particular situation. You may have received a total what ever that may have been and you can record that. However, as you alluded to you only have about 3" or so left over. True that's a depth but if you put down the total and only have 3" left over it will look pretty strange on a report where someone actually have the total you reported and has a simliar amount left on the ground verses you blown off or beaten down amount left over. There are examples of this in the COOP Data.

[40/70 Benchmark]

7 minutes ago, weathafella said:

That was my poorly articulated point.

Nah, not poorly articulated....you are right, but its just exceedingly rare....which is my point. I don't want to rely on that.

[Greg]

8 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Sarcasm...whooosh.

The problem with measuring snow depth at any given time and passing it off as snowfall is that you are allowing other aspects of nature to "manipulate" the snowfall. If Wilmington gets 6" Tuesday, then it flips to rain, while Powderfreak and Phin play naked twister in the snow. Are you calling it a whiff when you slumber out of bed at noon on Tuesday to mow the lawn??

I would record that data which is fine in that particular situation. But you won't have much left to show for it. This is where problems occurs, someone will actually get 6" that stays while your 6" will be down to about 1" at observation time.

[40/70 Benchmark]

Just now, Greg said:

I would record that data which is fine in that particular situation. But you won't have much left to show for it. This is where problems occurs, someone will actually get 6" that stays while your 6" will be down to about 1" at observation time.

Not if you had measured every 6 hours.....(mic drop).....

[Greg]

Just now, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Not if you had measured every 6 hours.....(mic drop).....

I said only in that particular situation not others, such as a straight start to finish snowstorms. Doesn't matter whether the snow is wet, fluffy, or normal ratio... (Mic Drop)

[40/70 Benchmark]

Just now, Greg said:

I said only in that particular situation not others, such as a straight start to finish snowstorms. Doesn't matter whether the snow is wet, fluffy, or normal ratio... (Mic Drop)

So, you declare that your manner of measuring only ensures uncompromised data in "certain situations", then proceed to drop the mic....you do you, I guess.

[powderfreak]

9 minutes ago, Greg said:

I would record that data which is fine in that particular situation. But you won't have much left to show for it. This is where problems occurs, someone will actually get 6" that stays while your 6" will be down to about 1" at observation time.

That’s not a problem because you are comparing snowfall and snow depth.  Two different things.  6-inches of snow fell.  Your depth at observation time is 1”.

[40/70 Benchmark]

Just now, powderfreak said:

That’s not a problem because you are comparing snowfall and snow depth.  Two different things.

Bravo....

[Greg]

5 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

So, you declare that your manner of measuring only ensures uncompromised data in "certain situations", then proceed to drop the mic....you do you, I guess.

Do you really think I'm the only weather observer that measures every 24 hours? There are many others not to mention COOPS that do this. Airports are in another a World of their own. Other weather spotters do measure every 6 hours like you do. This creates a discrepancy in storm totals. This is why there is ambiguity when it comes to snowfall measuring techniques.

[Baroclinic Zone]

Yeah, I'm not measuring every 6hrs.  Once, maybe twice if the storm goes long enough.  Sometimes I'm not even home for a snowfall.

[backedgeapproaching]

21 minutes ago, Greg said:

I would record that data which is fine in that particular situation. But you won't have much left to show for it. This is where problems occurs, someone will actually get 6" that stays while your 6" will be down to about 1" at observation time.

Even if you are doing once a day measurements you still should measuring as soon as the snow ends.  Even COOP guidelines state that--if it stops at 11am you shouldn't be waiting until 7am the next day to measure snowfall, snow depth yes.  I'm not sure if you are trying to say that or not.

[TauntonBlizzard2013]

Common sense would tell you, measuring more often would give you a better idea of what ACTUALLY fell, no what’s left over after.

In the interest of science, you would think we would like to know how much snow fell, not how much crust is left over after it rains and settles.

[78Blizzard]

Why don't we make a thread for how to measure snowfall...?  

[NeonPeon]

Count every flake.

[Go Kart Mozart]

For those of you interested in discussing weather forecasting rather than how to measure your weenie, Tip has started a thread for this storm.

[tamarack]

2 hours ago, Ginx snewx said:

?

Average is 100+ miles outside the benchmark?  Sniff, sniff, whiff.  

[Ginx snewx]

3 minutes ago, tamarack said:

Average is 100+ miles outside the benchmark?  Sniff, sniff, whiff.  

 

[tamarack]

2 hours ago, Greg said:

No, I mean it. During the 2016 storm the models had DC proper in a similar situation where they reported just shy of 18" there.) But just a mere hope, skip, and jump to the west/northwest of them they got 26"-36" with elevation. Watch, you'll see.

DCA: 17.8"
IAD:  29.3"

[mahk_webstah]

11 minutes ago, tamarack said:

Average is 100+ miles outside the benchmark?  Sniff, sniff, whiff.  

I like the left lean on that.

[Greg]

55 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

Even if you are doing once a day measurements you still should measuring as soon as the snow ends.  Even COOP guidelines state that--if it stops at 11am you shouldn't be waiting until 7am the next day to measure snowfall, snow depth yes.  I'm not sure if you are trying to say that or not.

I'm not trying to state that. What you said is totally correct. Try to measure the snow a little before it ends if you can and if the snow ends before your original observation time then give that amount to the Weather Bureau. No problem. You said everything right.

[Greg]

21 minutes ago, tamarack said:

DCA: 17.8"
IAD:  29.3"

That IAD is a combination of elevation 313 Feet and 6 hour measuring technique. I heard some rumors, not entirely sure if there true, that others measured every 3 hours and wiped off the board but I'm not even going to go there. When that happens, usually but not all the time, the Weather Bureau comes in and corrects the measuring error.

[Hoth]

Tippy's thread for the threat is up. Weenies....asseeeeemblllle!

[tamarack]

1 hour ago, Ginx snewx said:

I can't count the amount of storms where snow fell for 12 hrs then changed to rain and melted or was dry and sublimated or blew all around. So 10 inches fell in 6 hrs then melted almost out the next 18 so I only had a half inch. Or my exposed yard, snowboard was wiped clean by incredible winds so after averaging 10 spots I got 3 inches ave when 12 fell. Makes zero sense unless you are measuring depth.

On 4/6/82 at our back settlement home in Fort Kent, there was 27" at the stake.  A day later I'd recorded 15" new with a max temp of 17° and the stake showed 26".  A day - and 2" snow - later with max of 23° the stake was down to 25".  Of course, 20' on either side there was about 6 feet; same for parts of our driveway.  Our black Chevette had about 50 square inches visible.  CAR measured 26.3" from that storm and added 24" to their pack at their hilltop site.  With the possible exception of 2/3-4/1961, that was the strongest wind I've experienced during a major snowstorm.

[tamarack]

10 minutes ago, Greg said:

That IAD is a combination of elevation 313 Feet and 6 hour measuring technique. I heard some rumors, not entirely sure if it's true, that others measured every 3 hours and wiped off the board but I'm not even going to go there. When that happens, usually but not all the time, the Weather Bureau comes in and corrects the measuring error.

BWI had 29.2"  I've no idea how it measures snow.  Does DCA do the once-a-day?

The same effect was there for winter 09-10:  DCA, 56.2;  IAD, 73.2;  BWI, 77.1.