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Significant upper middle Atlantic S/CNE mix/snow potential Jan 3+


Typhoon Tip
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5 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Caution flags....upper level track is really far west, even on v16 GFS and Ukie. Now maybe we get a ULL track more like GGEM or regular GFS, but until the other guidance shows that is more likely, I have the alarm antennae up.

Btw, this is the same reason I was confident the Dec 16-17 wasn't going to be suppressed. Despite some of the Euro runs struggling to get the goods north of the pike, it had the vortmax tracking through east-central PA and LI/SE MA....that is not a suppressed look at all. So unless that part was wrong (which is less likely since models score higher on upper air features than sfc), it was going to come NW.

This is just the same thing but further west than that. You have a potent vortmax/ULL swinging up into W NY and SE Canada. That is not a snowstorm look even into a chunk of CNE/NNE. Now, it could be wrong, or you get enough of a redevelopment lobe to the SE (Ukie tries to do this and GGEM does it even better), but there is reason to be cautious.

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5 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Caution flags....upper level track is really far west, even on v16 GFS and Ukie. Now maybe we get a ULL track more like GGEM or regular GFS, but until the other guidance shows that is more likely, I have the alarm antennae up.

seems like we deal with what is in front of us Friday night/Sat and see if that can have some suppressive effect.  Might not resolve until we have a better sense on Friday.

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1 minute ago, mahk_webstah said:

seems like we deal with what is in front of us Friday night/Sat and see if that can have some suppressive effect.  Might not resolve until we have a better sense on Friday.

Yeah it could definitely come in more favorable....some large scale pieces are there for a good system as Tip already has outlined.

But there are some details that can screw it up. Especially since we are dealing with such a marginal airmass. If we had a legit airmass in place...not even arctic...but like an antecedent airmass of, say, -6C 850, then it would be different and more wiggle room. The colder airmass also provides more resistance even aloft, so you promote redevelopment....it's a feedback of sorts.

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It may be the down stream handling of the flow ... It really appears to me like previous solution "force" an initially less than ideal S/W south, because of 'emerging' down stream blocking - like the former 'senses' the forcing ( previous runs ...) before it actually is there, and then it is ..and it makes sense that a vortex is situated between CC and NS...

In this run, down stream delays just a bit and that delays the south suppression -

But actually looking at this again .. .I think the impulse Will's noting there is being corrected perhaps too deep ...owing to what the Euro likes to do with S/W in this time range... and what that does is lifts the lead wave N...effectively detaching it from the baroclinic field along the MA --> weaker low in a marginal atmosphere heads this in the wrong direction.

This run is mutable in my estimation - no worries...

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4 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah it could definitely come in more favorable....some large scale pieces are there for a good system as Tip already has outlined.

But there are some details that can screw it up. Especially since we are dealing with such a marginal airmass. If we had a legit airmass in place...not even arctic...but like an antecedent airmass of, say, -6C 850, then it would be different and more wiggle room. The colder airmass also provides more resistance even aloft, so you promote redevelopment....it's a feedback of sorts.

It does try to get a lobe going under us near hr 114, but the airmass is so toasted with a shitty high sort of retreating again. So basically we’ll need that lobe to really eject off to the east, and then you hope winds turn NE-N with cooler air in the low levels and thickness crashing and height falls aloft. Not always a good combo to bank on

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Just now, CoastalWx said:

EPS still has the s/w pretty far west and the low tied to the baroclinic zone near the EC. It does try for that lobe to eject out with cyclogenesis south of LI. But we may toast 850 on down for awhile.u

Want the lobe to redevelop sooner before the WAA taints everything. Ukie barely did this. GGEM was more successful.

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34 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Btw, this is the same reason I was confident the Dec 16-17 wasn't going to be suppressed. Despite some of the Euro runs struggling to get the goods north of the pike, it had the vortmax tracking through east-central PA and LI/SE MA....that is not a suppressed look at all. So unless that part was wrong (which is less likely since models score higher on upper air features than sfc), it was going to come NW.

This is just the same thing but further west than that. You have a potent vortmax/ULL swinging up into W NY and SE Canada. That is not a snowstorm look even into a chunk of CNE/NNE. Now, it could be wrong, or you get enough of a redevelopment lobe to the SE (Ukie tries to do this and GGEM does it even better), but there is reason to be cautious.

Sell that event. Still don't see much to be excited about...yet.

We wait. 

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this run is behaving strangely ..

It's trying to maintain the previous super-structure surrounding the advent of the NAO mode change throughout the D5-10 range of the run, but unlike prior solutions ...it keeps the 40 N train of waves moving at Maglev velocities ...

That's buckin' for a progressive and retrograde pattern simultaneously - .. at least in concept.  I'd be happier if this model would pick either rather than doing this ...

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'Course ... I will be the first to admit, 'live by the NAO die by the NAO' ... Not a huge personal fan of it as being as significantly 'forcing' - I still think a -NAO is equivalent to an "indirect Pacific" ...in that, the latter instructs the former, which then parlays in activity in that order ... but I don't wanna get beat up over it either .

The 29th - if anyone recalls ... - had a promising look at D7 or so, but it too was contingent over the NAO's blossoming, which it was in the runs at that time..  But, every cycle immediately ensuing thereafter, gradually took more and more of the western oriented blocking off the charts .. until actually the opposite remained, and the 29th lost out in the shuffle... 

I dunno - it's a tough stochastic domain ... It's like the only field on Earth where the models can be wrong about a thousand*trillion tons of atmosphere in a single cycle ...massively changing its mode characteristic as a surgically intended strike on sanity ... heh      Nah, but I think this has legs, this mode change.. that AO is dramatic and shares a large amount of NOA domain space.. Plus, this sort of concerts with the EPS previous NAO downward movement - it's been in the airs...

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7 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

Well either way, get the snow where it needs to be first. Lay the foundation down when we get the blocking (hopefully) and Scooter HP nosing in that cold over the natural refrigeration. 

I feel like anything we can grab before 1/10 is a bonus.

1/4 can definitely produce (esp interior), but there's not much wiggle room. There may be another shot around 1/7-9 or so.

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7 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

Well either way, get the snow where it needs to be first. Lay the foundation down when we get the blocking (hopefully) and Scooter HP nosing in that cold over the natural refrigeration. 

Yea, I like what I see for later in January, but I feel like impatience may breed frustration for some.

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