Fall/Winter 2020/21 Banter Thread

[michsnowfreak]

7 minutes ago, beavis1729 said:

I think you're taking this out of context.  Simply being "cold enough to snow" isn't good enough; it doesn't mean anything unless it produces consistently.  And it doesn't matter whether it can snow in Nov or April, if it doesn't stay on the ground.  Sure, it's a nice statistic, but would anyone honestly say that Nov or Apr is wintry just because it can snow on a few days during those months? 

What I (and others, probably) mean is a period where we actually get a decent amount of snow and retention, i.e., consistent winter.  In the past 4 winters, we've basically had 2-4 weeks of consistent winter - that's all.  In 2017-18, it was the 2 weeks around Christmas, where it was cold and we had decent snowfall...but the rest of the winter was crap.  In 2018-19, we had decent snow in late Jan followed by the cold outbreak at the end of the month...but the rest of the winter was crap.  And, in 2019-20, did we even have any winter at all?  If we did, it was just a 1-2 week period at most.  Not a good batting average, when DJF spans 13 weeks on the calendar.

2017-18 was for whatever reason way better here than Chicago. it was pretty much constant winter from early Dec to late Feb with a few blips. the cold snap of late Jan 2019 was incredible but otherwise a forgettable winter. Last year, the best period of winter was in November. snow/cold records fell like dominoes. Last winter we had avg snow but below avg snowcover. I use both stats, as I believe both are important. Very few besides you and me look at snowcover stats. 

 

it seems I give you a hard time but we really have a lot in common. id easily take a cold snowcover winter over a wild winter of heavy snowfall but not consistent snowpack.

[michsnowfreak]

1 hour ago, KokomoWX said:

Some fodder I caught from social media. It would be great if true...

We have the ingredients for a 1978-style blizzard this winter

I've heard a lot of talk about massive storm potential this winter. I can say this...I will be SHOCKED if the Midwest doesn't have a huge storm this winter. No bets on who the haves and have nots will be though.

[IWXwx]

30 minutes ago, michsnowfreak said:

Since we are in the banter section, I have a curious question about white christmases for other snow lovers. I absolutely love Winter, and I absolutely love Christmas. It goes without saying that I want a white Christmas every year. However, If it is not a white Christmas I enjoy the holiday just as much. I am surprised at how many non-weather folks REALLy want a white Christmas and are disappointed if it's not, but then they complain every time it snows from January through April.  Does anyone else notice this?

That's absolutely a thing. I would say an overwhelming majority of people in this part of the country want a white Christmas and then no more snow for the rest of winter.

Also, this discussion reminds me that we didn't have a white Christmas here last year, but we had a white Christmas eve. This counts, doesn't it? 

[KokomoWX]

1 hour ago, michsnowfreak said:

I've heard a lot of talk about massive storm potential this winter. I can say this...I will be SHOCKED if the Midwest doesn't have a huge storm this winter. No bets on who the haves and have nots will be though.

I'm sure I've been put on the naughty list and am a have-not.  

[mississaugasnow]

1 hour ago, michsnowfreak said:

Since we are in the banter section, I have a curious question about white christmases for other snow lovers. I absolutely love Winter, and I absolutely love Christmas. It goes without saying that I want a white Christmas every year. However, If it is not a white Christmas I enjoy the holiday just as much. I am surprised at how many non-weather folks REALLy want a white Christmas and are disappointed if it's not, but then they complain every time it snows from January through April.  Does anyone else notice this?

haha ya I notice it. While not in the same boat I do want winter weather for November-February. Once November hits im pumped for that first 1-3" light snow event. That same event in March though I hate it and love the higher sun angle which destroys that tiny snowfall. By March a snowstorm to get me pumped and tracking would have to be 8-12"+ anything smaller and im annoyed routing for a pattern change that will bring sustained 40s during the day. 

[mississaugasnow]

Since it is banter. Ive mentioned before that this winter has already been given a C because of its decent start for my backyard. However, Im pretty confused by all the optimism and goal post moving and doubling down on winter. Its Mid December and though winter is nowhere close to done, December looks zzzz so that means a lot of places will have to really start crushing it come January and February. At what date do we start to see more of the board throw in the towel? If in two weeks the long range still looks garbage? Mid January? 

[michsnowfreak]

6 minutes ago, mississaugasnow said:

Since it is banter. Ive mentioned before that this winter has already been given a C because of its decent start for my backyard. However, Im pretty confused by all the optimism and goal post moving and doubling down on winter. Its Mid December and though winter is nowhere close to done, December looks zzzz so that means a lot of places will have to really start crushing it come January and February. At what date do we start to see more of the board throw in the towel? If in two weeks the long range still looks garbage? Mid January? 

I think I never liked "throw in the towel" because it's so subjective. Throw in the towel on what? Along, sustained Winter? In that case Early to mid January would be that towel being thrown. If we simply talking about getting some good snowstorms, I can't throw that towel for another 4 months. Im armed with way too much weather data on la nina winters to worry about mid December zzzs. 

[mississaugasnow]

15 minutes ago, michsnowfreak said:

I think I never liked "throw in the towel" because it's so subjective. Throw in the towel on what? Along, sustained Winter? In that case Early to mid January would be that towel being thrown. If we simply talking about getting some good snowstorms, I can't throw that towel for another 4 months. Im armed with way too much weather data on la nina winters to worry about mid December zzzs. 

 

Ya, I think that goes back to my personal preference. I know March and occasionally April can have some decent winter events 2-8" but that personally does nothing for me and by April in Toronto the averages fly from mid 40s to upper 50s by the end. So Id rather 45-50F and sunny and 55-60F in the 2nd half of April then track a 3-6" snowstorm. Snow to me at that time of year is more annoying because im ready to start planting and cleaning up the yard. 

[weatherbo]

I'm worried bout beavis this year.

[BuffaloWeather]

Cold and dry is the worst pattern. I'd rather it be 50s and sun. If it isn't going to snow, give me the warmth.

[Cary67]

4 hours ago, michsnowfreak said:

 

That was clearly hyperbole. If not, please show me any winter where we have just 2 weeks of it being cold enough to snow . you know, since it snows 5-7 of the 12 calendar months yearly. 

Averages exist for a reason. the surplus of snow that the lower Lakes saw from 2007-2015 has still not been evened out. And I certainly hope it isn't. but lol do you want me to show you how many snow records ORD has had the past 15 years?

 

Pure hyperbole.lol But I don't think we have only 2 weeks of cold air per winter. I do think most "normal" winters only have a window of 3-5 weeks where the pattern is active and cold air is available. Although the cold rain outside might be biasing my thoughts.

 

 

 

 

[beavis1729]

7 hours ago, michsnowfreak said:

2017-18 was for whatever reason way better here than Chicago. it was pretty much constant winter from early Dec to late Feb with a few blips. the cold snap of late Jan 2019 was incredible but otherwise a forgettable winter. Last year, the best period of winter was in November. snow/cold records fell like dominoes. Last winter we had avg snow but below avg snowcover. I use both stats, as I believe both are important. Very few besides you and me look at snowcover stats. 

 

it seems I give you a hard time but we really have a lot in common. id easily take a cold snowcover winter over a wild winter of heavy snowfall but not consistent snowpack.

No worries...none of my comments are meant to be personal.  Sorry if it ever comes across that way.  I'm just more upset this year than normal, because of Covid and some other non-weather things.  Just a tough year all around for so many people.

Yeah, I agree November 2019 was decent for snowfall, relatively speaking...and we had a nice arctic outbreak for so early in the season.  And Halloween was great here...we were in a local max of about 4" of snow on the ground.  I'd never seen anything close to that on Halloween before.  But in the end, it's generally forgettable, because it wasn't in DJF.  Sure, Halloween was memorable...but it was only one day.  The snow cover from Halloween and the November wintry period didn't last long, and it didn't contribute to any wintry feel because it was too early.  It warmed up so much after that...and no lakes/ponds were frozen, etc. 

As for your other posts about all of the record-setting winters at ORD recently...maybe at DTW it was a bit different...although I still don't think climo is what things should be compared to.  There is an absolute threshold for what constitutes winter, no matter where one lives.  If you live in Siberia or central Alaska or northern Minnesota, every winter is great.  If you live in Atlanta, none are...regardless of departures from normal. When you walk outside in DJF, there should be a high probability (not necessarily 100%) of it being cold with snow on the ground.  You know, the season that the old-timers call winter. 

The only good stretches of winter at ORD in the last 20 years were...off the top of my head...

(1) December 2000

(2) January 2009 cold

(3) GHD I

(4) 2013-14 winter

(5) GHD II / February 2015

(6) Late Dec 2017

(7) January 2019 arctic outbreak 

That's not very much to be excited about, over a 20-year period.  The only ones which were long-lasting/consistent wintry periods were (1), (4), and (5).  So, 3 long-lasting wintry periods over the past 20 years.  It was much better from 1976-1985.  A good # of those winters were very cold, snowy, or both.

[Cary67]

1 hour ago, beavis1729 said:

No worries...none of my comments are meant to be personal.  Sorry if it ever comes across that way.  I'm just more upset this year than normal, because of Covid and some other non-weather things.  Just a tough year all around for so many people.

Yeah, I agree November 2019 was decent for snowfall, relatively speaking...and we had a nice arctic outbreak for so early in the season.  And Halloween was great here...we were in a local max of about 4" of snow on the ground.  I'd never seen anything close to that on Halloween before.  But in the end, it's generally forgettable, because it wasn't in DJF.  Sure, Halloween was memorable...but it was only one day.  The snow cover from Halloween and the November wintry period didn't last long, and it didn't contribute to any wintry feel because it was too early.  It warmed up so much after that...and no lakes/ponds were frozen, etc. 

As for your other posts about all of the record-setting winters at ORD recently...maybe at DTW it was a bit different...although I still don't think climo is what things should be compared to.  There is an absolute threshold for what constitutes winter, no matter where one lives.  If you live in Siberia or central Alaska or northern Minnesota, every winter is great.  If you live in Atlanta, none are...regardless of departures from normal. When you walk outside in DJF, there should be a high probability (not necessarily 100%) of it being cold with snow on the ground.  You know, the season that the old-timers call winter. 

The only good stretches of winter at ORD in the last 20 years were...off the top of my head...

(1) December 2000

(2) January 2009 cold

(3) GHD I

(4) 2013-14 winter

(5) GHD II / February 2015

(6) Late Dec 2017

(7) January 2019 arctic outbreak 

That's not very much to be excited about, over a 20-year period.  The only ones which were long-lasting/consistent wintry periods were (1), (4), and (5).  So, 3 long-lasting wintry periods over the past 20 years.  It was much better from 1976-1985.  A good # of those winters were very cold, snowy, or both.

Don't forget 2007-08. 

[Hoosier]

24 minutes ago, Cary67 said:

Don't forget 2007-08. 

It was in the 60s in Chicago in early January.  I don't think that was an acceptable winter for beavis.

[Cary67]

1 minute ago, Hoosier said:

It was in the 60s in Chicago in early January.  I don't think that was an acceptable winter for beavis.

I just remember over 85" in my area with parts of SE WI over 100" that year. Definitely acceptable in my book

[Hoosier]

1 hour ago, Cary67 said:

I just remember over 85" in my area with parts of SE WI over 100" that year. Definitely acceptable in my book

60" at ORD, so a pretty good gradient.  

A good snowfall winter to be sure, but with that total at ORD and thaws thrown in, it doesn't strike me as one that beavis would rank highly.

[Stebo]

I would give anything for 07-08, perfect roller coaster winter with literally everything even severe.

[Cary67]

3 minutes ago, Hoosier said:

60" at ORD, so a pretty good gradient.  

A good snowfall winter to be sure, but with that total at ORD and thaws thrown in, it doesn't strike me as one that beavis would rank highly.

There were many instances of systems that winter favoring far NW areas and into S.Wi

[OrdIowPitMsp]

07-08 I was a senior in high school. Southern lake county did very well, I remember a handful of snow days and early dismissals that year. Wish I kept an accurate measurement imby. 

[Snowstorms]

3 hours ago, beavis1729 said:

No worries...none of my comments are meant to be personal.  Sorry if it ever comes across that way.  I'm just more upset this year than normal, because of Covid and some other non-weather things.  Just a tough year all around for so many people.

Yeah, I agree November 2019 was decent for snowfall, relatively speaking...and we had a nice arctic outbreak for so early in the season.  And Halloween was great here...we were in a local max of about 4" of snow on the ground.  I'd never seen anything close to that on Halloween before.  But in the end, it's generally forgettable, because it wasn't in DJF.  Sure, Halloween was memorable...but it was only one day.  The snow cover from Halloween and the November wintry period didn't last long, and it didn't contribute to any wintry feel because it was too early.  It warmed up so much after that...and no lakes/ponds were frozen, etc. 

As for your other posts about all of the record-setting winters at ORD recently...maybe at DTW it was a bit different...although I still don't think climo is what things should be compared to.  There is an absolute threshold for what constitutes winter, no matter where one lives.  If you live in Siberia or central Alaska or northern Minnesota, every winter is great.  If you live in Atlanta, none are...regardless of departures from normal. When you walk outside in DJF, there should be a high probability (not necessarily 100%) of it being cold with snow on the ground.  You know, the season that the old-timers call winter. 

The only good stretches of winter at ORD in the last 20 years were...off the top of my head...

(1) December 2000

(2) January 2009 cold

(3) GHD I

(4) 2013-14 winter

(5) GHD II / February 2015

(6) Late Dec 2017

(7) January 2019 arctic outbreak 

That's not very much to be excited about, over a 20-year period.  The only ones which were long-lasting/consistent wintry periods were (1), (4), and (5).  So, 3 long-lasting wintry periods over the past 20 years.  It was much better from 1976-1985.  A good # of those winters were very cold, snowy, or both.

Quebec city averages 120" every winter. Average mean temp for DJF is 12.8F. They also average 70 snow days every winter. Fits your narrative. I recommend moving there. 

[Malacka11]

What is Quebec City like? Has anyone been there? looks like a really nice place from a quick google.

[CharlieScott]

The Weather channel on my phone says there are chances of snow in Duluth during the weekend, while Climacell says there wont be any snow. I don't know who to believe anymore.

[Snowstorms]

2 minutes ago, Malacka11 said:

What is Quebec City like? Has anyone been there? looks like a really nice place from a quick google.

 I was going to go this year till Covid happened. It's an 8-hour drive from Toronto. 

People in Quebec City are more French oriented than Montreal. Essentially, it looks and feels like your average European city. Great for those who want to experience what France is like without actually going there.  Quebec has very unique topography. I was north of Mont Tremblant last summer and it was full of mountains, hills and lakes. Has the best Poutine ever.  

[Malacka11]

9 minutes ago, Snowstorms said:

 I was going to go this year till Covid happened. It's an 8-hour drive from Toronto. 

People in Quebec City are more French oriented than Montreal. Essentially, it looks and feels like your average European city. Great for those who want to experience what France is like without actually going there.  Quebec has very unique topography. I was north of Mont Tremblant last summer and it was full of mountains, hills and lakes. Has the best Poutine ever.  

Thanks for the info! That's kind of cool, that it's more of a European city than a modern North American one. I'm originally from Germany, so I must confess that my curiosity is piqued. May need to take a trip there when I'm able to. It does look like a very scenic area, and Poutine sounds delicious

[WestMichigan]

19 minutes ago, Snowstorms said:

 I was going to go this year till Covid happened. It's an 8-hour drive from Toronto. 

People in Quebec City are more French oriented than Montreal. Essentially, it looks and feels like your average European city. Great for those who want to experience what France is like without actually going there.  Quebec has very unique topography. I was north of Mont Tremblant last summer and it was full of mountains, hills and lakes. Has the best Poutine ever.  

Been there twice in the last three years. I agree 100% with you except the best poutine I had was in Ottawa. Not bad in Quebec City though. The old town is really nice. Definitely recommend going there if you have the chance. 

[Snowstorms]

16 minutes ago, Malacka11 said:

Thanks for the info! That's kind of cool, that it's more of a European city than a modern North American one. I'm originally from Germany, so I must confess that my curiosity is piqued. May need to take a trip there when I'm able to. It does look like a very scenic area, and Poutine sounds delicious

Germany has been on my list for 3 years. Just never got the chance to go. One of my favourite places along with Switzerland. Definitely want to visit Berlin and Munich. My uncle lives near Dusseldorf. 

2 minutes ago, WestMichigan said:

Been there twice in the last three years. I agree 100% with you except the best poutine I had was in Ottawa. Not bad in Quebec City though. The old town is really nice. Definitely recommend going there if you have the chance. 

I did not know that. Perhaps I'll take a road trip to Ottawa near Christmas to try this poutine. Thanks for the heads up  

[Malacka11]

25 minutes ago, Snowstorms said:

Germany has been on my list for 3 years. Just never got the chance to go. One of my favourite places along with Switzerland. Definitely want to visit Berlin and Munich. My uncle lives near Dusseldorf. 

I did not know that. Perhaps I'll take a road trip to Ottawa near Christmas to try this poutine. Thanks for the heads up  

Munich is definitely really nice; the convenience of the airport definitely helps too... Nurnberg is not a far drive away and is basically my home town... you should give it a look! My dream is to visit Switzerland.

[Hoosier]

Good stuff

[michsnowfreak]

8 hours ago, Snowstorms said:

Germany has been on my list for 3 years. Just never got the chance to go. One of my favourite places along with Switzerland. Definitely want to visit Berlin and Munich. My uncle lives near Dusseldorf. 

I did not know that. Perhaps I'll take a road trip to Ottawa near Christmas to try this poutine. Thanks for the heads up  

 Both Detroit and Chicago do outdoor German themed Christmas markets which are awesome. I've been to both. Unfortunately I doubt they will be doing them this year with everything going on

[michsnowfreak]

9 hours ago, OrdIowPitMsp said:

07-08 I was a senior in high school. Southern lake county did very well, I remember a handful of snow days and early dismissals that year. Wish I kept an accurate measurement imby. 

From a snow perspective 07-08 was heaven but it was king of roller coaster, so I imagine beavis would be infuriated over wasting sdds despite all that snow. I had 78.2" of snow but only 60 days of 1"+ snowcover. Thats getting a surplus of 35" of snow but only 10 extra snowcover days.  I think one of the most anomalous winters the opposite way was 1947-48. Detroit only saw 26.8" of snow the entire season however 89 days with 1"+ snow cover. A snowfall deficit of 14" but a snow cover surplus of nearly 40 days. No major snowstorms however 2 big ice storms helped cement in the snow cover as a lot of the time it was cold and dry.