Fall/Winter 2020/21 Banter Thread

[RCNYILWX]

Appreciate your comments...I just figure that all snow lovers would get frustrated by our climo...and people could at least agree on that, with so much anger and discord in the world right now.  You and others seem to deal with our climo more maturely than I do.  I have a met degree, so I understand climo and the science behind meteorology...but what always drove me to pursue that path was a love of winter.  So, of course much of what I say on this forum doesn't make logical sense.  I'm in denial about winters here...and just can't get past it.
I'm not trolling.  What I'm trying to accomplish is to have others share in my frustration...and maybe even to share in nostalgia to talk about the great patterns of the past, and what we should be looking for to make it happen again.  That's why the NE forum is fun.  Even with some challenging personalities, there is robust discussion and remembrance of historical storms...and it's filled with hope and weenies.  That's a good thing...an escape from the modern world.
It's difficult enough being on an island in the world as a snow lover...and then to be on an island even on a snow-loving forum like this is even stranger.  When first joining this forum 10 years ago, I figured most people would be like me...but that's not what happened.
Snow & arctic cold lovers don't fit into the modern world, especially the suburban/urban Chicago metro area. This current winter, especially with Covid, is the icing on the cake.  The lack of snowfall is bad enough...but there just hasn't been any cold all winter.  Where did it go?  It just doesn't feel right.  Even if you use climo as the benchmark...ORD's normal low is around 15, and imby it's probably around 13.  We've had two days all season with a low temp colder than this.
Doesn't everyone on here not just understand the frustration...but feel it too?

Snowstorms drove my interest in the weather from a young age too because I grew up in NYC and experienced some of the legendary storms on the NESIS list. I literally wrote my college essay about how the Blizzard of 1996 caused my obsession with the weather. When the winter is frustrating, I try to take the good with the bad. To be honest, my ideal winter now would be lots of snow but temps not too cold. As great as winter 13-14 was, being frigid for that long got kind of old. So if it's not gonna snow, I'd rather it not be CAD. I try to find things of interest meteorology wise even when it's quieter than we'd all like. I think when it comes down to it, it's not worth getting worked up over something I can't control.

This winter has made me appreciate snow for the little we've had because my soon to be 4 year old son loves sledding and with the decently persistent snow cover we've had since the late December event, have gotten out with him several times and also brought my almost 2 year old daughter out a few times. There's nothing like seeing the joy in my son when he looks outside and sees new snow, because it reminds me of how I always have been with snow since I was a kid.

Regarding talking about classic snowstorms and legendary winters, I'd totally be up for a thread with that sort of discussion. Maybe could also include links to the threads of great winter events of the past since AmWx has been in existence. What do you say@Hoosier ?

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[cyclone77]

2 hours ago, Chicago Storm said:

dawn redwoods are great.

a rare conifer that actually produces fall color.


.

Yeah looking forward to it.  They also can grow 5ft or more per year, so should be fun to watch take off in coming years.  

[Hoosier]

1 hour ago, RCNYILWX said:

Regarding talking about classic snowstorms and legendary winters, I'd totally be up for a thread with that sort of discussion. Maybe could also include links to the threads of great winter events of the past since AmWx has been in existence. What do you say@Hoosier ?

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Sure

[michsnowfreak]

12 hours ago, Chicago Storm said:

you should try a red pine, if you haven’t already. they’re not as bulky as many other pines/spruces.




.

Thanks for the suggestion! I have a lilac bush I'm getting rid of in the Spring. I was torn on putting another kind of conifer or sugar Maple in its place. I love sugar maples in the fall but I may go with this.

Right now I have 

noble fir (mature)

white pine (young)

Norway spruce (young)

blue spruce (baby)

balsam fir (baby, it was the one "not pictured" in my Christmas pic a few posts back).

Neighbor has a nice stand of 3 white pines too.

I do have two crimson maples out front so I'm not ALL boreal lol.

[michsnowfreak]

11 hours ago, RCNYILWX said:

Snowstorms drove my interest in the weather from a young age too because I grew up in NYC and experienced some of the legendary storms on the NESIS list. I literally wrote my college essay about how the Blizzard of 1996 caused my obsession with the weather. When the winter is frustrating, I try to take the good with the bad. To be honest, my ideal winter now would be lots of snow but temps not too cold. As great as winter 13-14 was, being frigid for that long got kind of old. So if it's not gonna snow, I'd rather it not be CAD. I try to find things of interest meteorology wise even when it's quieter than we'd all like. I think when it comes down to it, it's not worth getting worked up over something I can't control.

This winter has made me appreciate snow for the little we've had because my soon to be 4 year old son loves sledding and with the decently persistent snow cover we've had since the late December event, have gotten out with him several times and also brought my almost 2 year old daughter out a few times. There's nothing like seeing the joy in my son when he looks outside and sees new snow, because it reminds me of how I always have been with snow since I was a kid.

Regarding talking about classic snowstorms and legendary winters, I'd totally be up for a thread with that sort of discussion. Maybe could also include links to the threads of great winter events of the past since AmWx has been in existence. What do you say@Hoosier ?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

This is a GREAT idea.  How much snow cover have you had? On guessing just 1 or 2"? Not sure where in the area you live but my brother who lives right in the city has just had a few coatings-1" that seemed to melt the same day. he did have a few inches with that dec event but said it didn't last.

[RCNYILWX]

This is a GREAT idea.  How much snow cover have you had? On guessing just 1 or 2"? Not sure where in the area you live but my brother who lives right in the city has just had a few coatings-1" that seemed to melt the same day. he did have a few inches with that dec event but said it didn't last.

So I guess it would be up to me to start that thread? Does anyone have the links to past storm threads?

I live in southeast Naperville in the west/southwest suburbs. With the late December snow to ice and the New Year's slopfest, probably had about 3" or so peak depth which compacted down but we kept a lot of that for a while until losing coverage in the unshaded and/or south facing areas over the past week or so. My front yard is north facing and shaded, so never went down to grass because it's pretty glacierized stuff.

Now we're back to full cover with Sunday's snow, but varied depth from a coating to a couple inches where the snow/ice remains. Been just enough to do a lot of sledding lately and it's nice because there's a good sledding hill in the parkway behind my house.

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[michsnowfreak]

1 hour ago, RCNYILWX said:

So I guess it would be up to me to start that thread? Does anyone have the links to past storm threads?

I live in southeast Naperville in the west/southwest suburbs. With the late December snow to ice and the New Year's slopfest, probably had about 3" or so peak depth which compacted down but we kept a lot of that for a while until losing coverage in the unshaded and/or south facing areas over the past week or so. My front yard is north facing and shaded, so never went down to grass because it's pretty glacierized stuff.

Now we're back to full cover with Sunday's snow, but varied depth from a coating to a couple inches where the snow/ice remains. Been just enough to do a lot of sledding lately and it's nice because there's a good sledding hill in the parkway behind my house.

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I can definitely look up some past stuff once you start the thread.

[hawkeye_wx]

There has been discussion of Dec/Jan/Feb monthly snowfall trends over the last decade+ farther east in the lakes region, so I thought I'd check my data to see what my averages are.

Starting with 2007-08, this is what I found.

Dec: 9.3"

Jan: 9.7"

Feb: 11.7"

[beavis1729]

22 hours ago, Chicago Storm said:

no way in hell beavis would be alright with an MSP winter.


.

I believe MSP averages about 60 "wintry" days per year...which I define as a day with a max temp <= 29F AND 2+" of snow cover.  Definitely not as many wintry days as I thought...but it's probably closer to 65-70 days outside of the city/airport UHI.

For comparison, ORD probably averages around 25 wintry days per year (?).  Huge difference.

I'd like to calculate the exact 50-year average #'s for ORD and MSP, but unfortunately the Utah State climate data CSV files are nowhere to be found anymore.  It used to be very easy to download this data.  I've looked at XMACIS too; maybe I'm missing something.

Another way to look at it is that a daily min of 0F at ORD is just as common as a 30F min in January, assuming a normal distribution.  So, every cold morning is balanced out by a mild morning.  At MSP, it's much different, as a 0F min is just as common as a 15F min.  And outside of the MSP UHI, it's even better...as a 0F min is just as common as a 10F min. 

Our resident MSP poster mentioned that, over the last 10 winters, MSP has averaged 100 days with 1"+ of snow cover.  ORD has only accomplished this once in history, I believe (1978-79).

All of the above information, combined with a lower sun angle, makes the tenor of winter much much better in the MSP area.  There's a lot more to it than just total snowfall.  

I'm disappointed with about 75% of winters here.  In the MSP area, I'd probably be disappointed with 25% of winters.  Not perfect of course, but much better.

[michsnowfreak]

2 hours ago, hawkeye_wx said:

There has been discussion of Dec/Jan/Feb monthly snowfall trends over the last decade+ farther east in the lakes region, so I thought I'd check my data to see what my averages are.

Starting with 2007-08, this is what I found.

Dec: 9.3"

Jan: 9.7"

Feb: 11.7"

Don't have my averages right here, but since 2007-08 Detroit is

Dec: 9.7" (less than 1" more than avg)

Jan: 14.7" (approx 4" more than avg)

Feb: 17.8" (approx 8" more than avg)

[Hoosier]

Where da snow?

[WaryWarren]

Severe outbreak in Dixie Alley? Finally, some excitement.

[OrdIowPitMsp]

I believe in Chicago it is 100 consecutive days of snowcover which is the record, not sure the average non consecutive days of 1” cover. MSP averages 100 non-consecutive days of snowcover per season. We are at 43 days with 1” of snowcover so far this season, and the record is 136 days of consecutive snow cover in 1964-65. @beavis1729

[michsnowfreak]

1 hour ago, OrdIowPitMsp said:

I believe in Chicago it is 100 consecutive days of snowcover which is the record, not sure the average non consecutive days of 1” cover. MSP averages 100 non-consecutive days of snowcover per season. We are at 43 days with 1” of snowcover so far this season, and the record is 136 days of consecutive snow cover in 1964-65. @beavis1729

The average for Minneapolis looks to be 88 snow cover days per season (1"+).  The record is 137 days set twice, in 1964-65 and 2000-01. The record least amount is 26 days in 1930-31.

 

At Chicago the average snow cover days per season is 43. The record is 98 days set in 1978-79 and the record low is 9 days set in 1948-49.

 

At Detroit the average snow cover days per season is 50. The record is 96 days set in 2013-14 and the record low is 10 days set in 1936-37.

 

 Note that these are days with 1" or more of snow cover. This does not include days where trace of snow cover is reported, which adds quite a few additional days for each location per season

[beavis1729]

2 hours ago, OrdIowPitMsp said:

I believe in Chicago it is 100 consecutive days of snowcover which is the record, not sure the average non consecutive days of 1” cover. MSP averages 100 non-consecutive days of snowcover per season. We are at 43 days with 1” of snowcover so far this season, and the record is 136 days of consecutive snow cover in 1964-65. @beavis1729

Good info.  Here's the kicker - even in one of Chicago's best winters (2013-14), there were only 83 days with 1" of snow cover.  MSP averages 100 days per winter.  

This is a perfect summary of why I'd be satisfied with MSP's winter climo.

P.S. In January 2014, ORD had 33.7" of snow, but the net change in snow depth during the month was zero (!).  On 1/1/2014, snow depth was 3"...and on 1/31/2014 it was also 3".  And, on top of that, the month was 8.1F below normal.  This is why our climo is so frustrating.  Even when we're 8 degrees below normal during the coldest month of the year, and receive about 3x the normal snowfall, we can't gain snowpack month-on-month.  Just too many thaws. 

It's really hard to comprehend - I had to triple-check the #'s because it seems so hard to believe.

Before everyone jumps on me again...I'm not saying 2013-14 was a bad winter.  But it illustrates the crazy gradient in the winter feel between MSP and ORD.  

[michsnowfreak]

20 minutes ago, beavis1729 said:

Good info.  Here's the kicker - even in one of Chicago's best winters (2013-14), there were only 83 days with 1" of snow cover.  MSP averages 100 days per winter.  

This is a perfect summary of why I'd be satisfied with MSP's winter climo.

P.S. In January 2014, ORD had 33.7" of snow, but the net change in snow depth during the month was zero (!).  On 1/1/2014, snow depth was 3"...and on 1/31/2014 it was also 3".  And, on top of that, the month was 8.1F below normal.  This is why our climo is so frustrating.  Even when we're 8 degrees below normal during the coldest month of the year, and receive about 3x the normal snowfall, we can't gain snowpack month-on-month.  Just too many thaws. 

It's really hard to comprehend - I had to triple-check the #'s because it seems so hard to believe.

Before everyone jumps on me again...I'm not saying 2013-14 was a bad winter.  But it illustrates the crazy gradient in the winter feel between MSP and ORD.  

 As mentioned above, I am not sure though 100 number comes from everything I looked at showed an average of 88 days for Minneapolis. Obviously it's still double Chicago. As for 2014, im shocked the snow depth with that low in Chicago. I know others have complained about measuring at ORD, I wonder if it was too low? Detroit spent the entire months of both Feb 2014 and Feb 2015 with double digit depth.  Each year it lingered well into March as well.

[Geoboy645]

10 minutes ago, michsnowfreak said:

 As mentioned above, I am not sure though 100 number comes from everything I looked at showed an average of 88 days for Minneapolis. Obviously it's still double Chicago. As for 2014, im shocked the snow depth with that low in Chicago. I know others have complained about measuring at ORD, I wonder if it was too low? Detroit spent the entire months of both Feb 2014 and Feb 2015 with double digit depth.  Each year it lingered well into March as well.

I mean 13-14 was like that here too. Madison never reached a foot of snowpack the entire winter which is pretty surprising all things considered. Then again we didn't quite get the major storms that either Chicago or Detroit had. We "only" had 57" that winter.

[OrdIowPitMsp]

15 minutes ago, michsnowfreak said:

 As mentioned above, I am not sure though 100 number comes from everything I looked at showed an average of 88 days for Minneapolis. Obviously it's still double Chicago. As for 2014, im shocked the snow depth with that low in Chicago. I know others have complained about measuring at ORD, I wonder if it was too low? Detroit spent the entire months of both Feb 2014 and Feb 2015 with double digit depth.  Each year it lingered well into March as well.

I pulled that number directly from a page on the MN DNR who merged data from a handful of sites based on when that was the official obs spot going back to 1884. They have some really cool stats compiled.

https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/climate/twin_cities/snowfall.html

Here is the direct link to the file I pulled the 100 days of 1” stat from. I will concede that using data directly from the current NWS obs site at the airport is the proper methodology and 88 days is probably a more accurate “average”
 

https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/natural_resources/climate/twin_cities/snowvar.html

 

[hardypalmguy]

The average for Minneapolis looks to be 88 snow cover days per season (1"+).  The record is 137 days set twice, in 1964-65 and 2000-01. The record least amount is 26 days in 1930-31.
 
At Chicago the average snow cover days per season is 43. The record is 98 days set in 1978-79 and the record low is 9 days set in 1948-49.
 
At Detroit the average snow cover days per season is 50. The record is 96 days set in 2013-14 and the record low is 10 days set in 1936-37.
 
 Note that these are days with 1" or more of snow cover. This does not include days where trace of snow cover is reported, which adds quite a few additional days for each location per season

What’s MKE?


.

[michsnowfreak]

53 minutes ago, hardypalmguy said:

What’s MKE?


.

MKE averages 60 days per season of 1"+ snowcover. The most was 117 days in 1978-79 and the least 17 days in 1953-54.

 

Side note....its crazy how many anemic winters there were in the 1930s-50s in this region. I've said it many times regarding Detroit but as I look at other areas I see a lot of the same. Whether it was warm winters, low snow winters, or both, some of them were terrible everywhere, while others were bad in some spots and serviceable in others. There were a few good region wide winters thrown in there but they were few and far between during that era.

[michsnowfreak]

1 hour ago, OrdIowPitMsp said:

I pulled that number directly from a page on the MN DNR who merged data from a handful of sites based on when that was the official obs spot going back to 1884. They have some really cool stats compiled.

https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/climate/twin_cities/snowfall.html

Here is the direct link to the file I pulled the 100 days of 1” stat from. I will concede that using data directly from the current NWS obs site at the airport is the proper methodology and 88 days is probably a more accurate “average”
 

https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/natural_resources/climate/twin_cities/snowvar.html

 

 That is a cool website. I personally have compiled things like that for Detroit but it's very rare to see a national weather service compile that much detail of stats, let alone the dnr.  I just used Xmacis and it calculated the data from 1900 to 2020 period I do not have snow cover data for Minneapolis from 1884 to 1900. I like Xmacis because as long as there is no missing data you can get the exact averages of whatever your looking for, no quality control or anything.  The bottom line is, 88 or 100 days it really does not matter, for a snow cover lover Minneapolis is one of the best metros to live in in this sub. Considering the long term average is only 6" more snowfall than Detroit but 38 more days of 1" snow cover, I would say Minneapolis does an excellent job of making their snow last.

[CheeselandSkies]

6 hours ago, Geoboy645 said:

I mean 13-14 was like that here too. Madison never reached a foot of snowpack the entire winter which is pretty surprising all things considered. Then again we didn't quite get the major storms that either Chicago or Detroit had. We "only" had 57" that winter.

Which is why I don't remember that winter being so impressive, just miserable f**king cold for way too long without a break.

[OrdIowPitMsp]

8 hours ago, michsnowfreak said:

 That is a cool website. I personally have compiled things like that for Detroit but it's very rare to see a national weather service compile that much detail of stats, let alone the dnr.  I just used Xmacis and it calculated the data from 1900 to 2020 period I do not have snow cover data for Minneapolis from 1884 to 1900. I like Xmacis because as long as there is no missing data you can get the exact averages of whatever your looking for, no quality control or anything.  The bottom line is, 88 or 100 days it really does not matter, for a snow cover lover Minneapolis is one of the best metros to live in in this sub. Considering the long term average is only 6" more snowfall than Detroit but 38 more days of 1" snow cover, I would say Minneapolis does an excellent job of making their snow last.

The DNR here is exceptional. Maybe my expectations were low coming from IL but I’ve found the amount of publicly available data on all sorts of subjects is impressive. 
 

Sun angle matters, the difference in melting on a 38F day at 42N vs 45N surprised me. 

[michsnowfreak]

12 hours ago, Geoboy645 said:

I mean 13-14 was like that here too. Madison never reached a foot of snowpack the entire winter which is pretty surprising all things considered. Then again we didn't quite get the major storms that either Chicago or Detroit had. We "only" had 57" that winter.

oh wow. sounds like a tundra winter. We had a very prolonged period of double digit snowpack, considering it was nonstop blowing and drifting and settling it really kept up.

[michsnowfreak]

2 hours ago, OrdIowPitMsp said:

The DNR here is exceptional. Maybe my expectations were low coming from IL but I’ve found the amount of publicly available data on all sorts of subjects is impressive. 
 

Sun angle matters, the difference in melting on a 38F day at 42N vs 45N surprised me. 

I never took the sun angle into consideration.

[Chicago Storm]

enlighten me...

[Stebo]

What...

[Kitchener poster]

How many people here work in meteorology? Just curious. Those that do not, why are you interested enough in this field to participate or lurk on this forum? 
 

For me I study plant diseases and I am always interested in the environment. 

[hlcater]

I dont believe it

[Stebo]

3 minutes ago, Kitchener poster said:

How many people here work in meteorology? Just curious. Those that do not, why are you interested enough in this field to participate or lurk on this forum? 
 

For me I study plant diseases and I am always interested in the environment. 

I have been doing weather observing for almost 12 years.