NNE Cold Season Thread 2020-2021

[powderfreak]

Just now, backedgeapproaching said:

As Will said, his location is the blueprint for upslope snow.  I've have been calling it the magical hollow for years, nothing surprise me at all---- 5" in 30-40 minutes, sure why not. Ha

You cant get frustrated seeing Jspin's absurd obs and PF at 1500' posting  GIF after GIF after GIF of 30 dbz echoes and wondering why it isn't doing that in you backyard..its their own special zone and why PF gets the crickets in the main threads...lol.

You will get plenty of white stuff.

 

The best part is he had no idea about it when he bought his place, IIRC.  Like we just happened to find a very dedicated observer who happened to purchase a spot in like a 3-mile wide band of absurdity for the low elevation.  He lives like 5 miles away in any direction and we'd never know the reality except when you drive through and are like, hmmm it always seems to be dumping in this section of I-89.

[PhineasC]

3 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

As Will said, his location is the blueprint for upslope snow.  I've have been calling it the magical hollow for years, nothing surprise me at all---- 5" in 30-40 minutes, sure why not. Ha

You cant get frustrated seeing Jspin's absurd obs and PF at 1500' posting  GIF after GIF after GIF of 30 dbz echoes and wondering why it isn't doing that in your backyard..its their own special zone and why PF gets the crickets in the main threads...lol.

You will get plenty of white stuff.

 

I didn’t mean to come off as frustrated. I was posting more in affirmation and amazement.  His spot takes full advantage of the particular setups that work well.

It was breezy, cold, and snowy here today. Plenty of wintry appeal, and I am glad parts of our region got a few inches out of it. 

[backedgeapproaching]

Just now, powderfreak said:

The best part is he had no idea about it when he bought his place, IIRC.  Like we just happened to find a very dedicated observer who happened to purchase a spot in like a 3-mile wide band of absurdity for the low elevation.  He lives like a 5 miles in any direction and we'd never know the reality except when you drive through and are like, hmmm it always seems to be dumping in this section of I-89.

I was just thinking of that actually, I know he has mentioned before that he really had no idea that spot was that snowy.  Because of it being only 500' you just don't think it can snow that much.  I mentioned this before, but I remember reading some ski forum a few years ago where some guy was just not believing any of his snow totals and basically calling him out saying " there is just no way you got that much at 500ft'" or something along those lines.

[powderfreak]

33 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

I was just thinking of that actually, I know he has mentioned before that he really had no idea that spot was that snowy.  Because of it being only 500' you just don't think it can snow that much.  I mentioned this before, but I remember reading some ski forum a few years ago where some guy was just not believing any of his snow totals and basically calling him out saying " there is just no way you got that much at 500ft'" or something along those lines.

Ha yup.  On the old list serve archives.  I’ve known J.Spin online since like the late ‘90s through the old UVM List-Serve called SkiVT-L.  It was an Email list serve skiing group as I started reading it before I went to UVM.  The archives go way back into the early ‘90s I think with ski/weather discussion.  J.Spin used to produce these ski videos on VHS too (I think I bought one a couple decades ago), before DVDs became a thing.  But that was a great community when the internet was just starting to really reach people and AOL was in its full glory.

Most of my usual ski buddies (and great friends in general, like we’ve been in each other’s weddings and stuff) were met on that list-serve and we started skiing together back in like the early/mid 2000s when I went to UVM.  So the internet isn’t all bad I guess.

 

[jculligan]

After a round of morning show showers left another immeasurable dusting, we ended up having a mix of sun and clouds most of the day. Still waiting for our first inch at 1500' in the eastern Whites.

[PhineasC]

7 minutes ago, jculligan said:

After a round of morning show showers left another immeasurable dusting, we ended up having a mix of sun and clouds most of the day. Still waiting for our first inch at 1500' in the eastern Whites.

I think you need a cold coastal. This upslope and changeover from rain stuff won't do it at your location. I am waiting for a strong coastal storm with temps in the upper 20s as well because Randolph should crush it in such a storm. That should be gravy in our spots.

[PhineasC]

14 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Ha yup.  On the old list serve archives.  I’ve known J.Spin online since like the late ‘90s through the old UVM List-Serve called SkiVT-L.  It was an Email list serve skiing group as I started reading it before I went to UVM.  The archives go way back into the early ‘90s I think with ski/weather discussion.  J.Spin used to produce these ski videos on VHS too (I think I bought one a couple decades ago), before DVDs became a thing.  But that was a great community when the internet was just starting to really reach people and AOL was in its full glory.

Most of my usual ski buddies (and great friends in general, like we’ve been in each other’s weddings and stuff) were met on that list-serve and we started skiing together back in like the early/mid 2000s when I went to UVM.  So the internet isn’t all bad I guess.

 

I found one of his old videos. Cool stuff!

 

[CoastalWx]

15 minutes ago, jculligan said:

After a round of morning show showers left another immeasurable dusting, we ended up having a mix of sun and clouds most of the day. Still waiting for our first inch at 1500' in the eastern Whites.

Your bread and butter will be more in the way of retention and snows from synoptic systems. 

[ORH_wxman]

14 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

Your bread and butter will be more in the way of retention and snows from synoptic systems. 

Yeah in Jackson, he will get less upslope than phin and def less upslope than Alex. 

Wrong side of the presidentials. But that area does really well on the typical WAA systems and coastals. 

 

[J.Spin]

2 hours ago, PhineasC said:

JSpin appears to live in a magical elven snow kingdom disconnected from our boring human reality.

Yeah, pretty much.  We always thought the neighborhood entrance sign here was kind of cute, although we were initially sort of oblivious to its full meaning.  We get it now of course.

[PhineasC]

24 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah in Jackson, he will get less upslope than phin and def less upslope than Alex. 

Wrong side of the presidentials. But that area does really well on the typical WAA systems and coastals. 

 

If they are so typical where the hell are they? LOL

[mreaves]

1 hour ago, powderfreak said:

Ha yup.  On the old list serve archives.  I’ve known J.Spin online since like the late ‘90s through the old UVM List-Serve called SkiVT-L.  It was an Email list serve skiing group as I started reading it before I went to UVM.  The archives go way back into the early ‘90s I think with ski/weather discussion.  J.Spin used to produce these ski videos on VHS too (I think I bought one a couple decades ago), before DVDs became a thing.  But that was a great community when the internet was just starting to really reach people and AOL was in its full glory.

Most of my usual ski buddies (and great friends in general, like we’ve been in each other’s weddings and stuff) were met on that list-serve and we started skiing together back in like the early/mid 2000s when I went to UVM.  So the internet isn’t all bad I guess.

 

 Believe it or not, I’m still a member of one of those UVM email list serves that is used by municipal officials around the state. It still sees regular action, though not a ton. Mostly town clerks and state officials announcing thing like election workshops and days that flags are lowered to half staff. 

[mreaves]

47 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

Your bread and butter will be more in the way of retention and snows from synoptic systems. 

He needs something to retain first. 

[powderfreak]

32 minutes ago, J.Spin said:

Yeah, pretty much.  We always thought the neighborhood entrance sign here was kind of cute, although we were initially sort of oblivious to its full meaning.  We get it now of course.

 

Absolutely amazing!  Nice work on this, ha.

Just got back in from the headlamp walk with the dog and since I got home at 5pm, there's an inch of fluff on my car in that 5-8pm range.

1" in 3 hours snow shower rate... and it is fluffy.  We are in 30:1 fluffernutter land now.

 

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, CoastalWx said:

Your bread and butter will be more in the way of retention and snows from synoptic systems. 

Pencil in 8-12" there for every SWFE and call it a day.  Like once you see it on the models at day 3, you can just stop watching and go with climo there.

And then once it goes below freezing it'll never warm above freezing again until April, lol.

[bwt3650]

About 4” at earlier check.  Dog had fun today..that’s his happy face, as well as his “stay out of the banter thread unless you want to argue about covid” face.

[alex]

18 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Pencil in 8-12" there for every SWFE and call it a day.  Like once you see it on the models at day 3, you can just stop watching and go with climo there.

And then once it goes below freezing it'll never warm above freezing again until April, lol.

That was a beautiful thing when I lived in Bartlett. The overall “snowpack season” was much shorter, and you had to wait quite a bit longer to get your first snow, but it seemed like it never rained. Every time there was a cutter we’d just get 31 and freezing rain. I had 2 places there - one on the North side of the hills next to Attitash, and one right above Storyland. Higher elevation and STUNNING views but always wind scoured so we never had much snow on the ground. The first one had much better retention even if at lower elevation. 
 

It’s a trade-off. Up here we have a much longer snow season and many more “snow days.” If you like snow on trees and snow globes, like me, it’s much better. But the snowpack down in the Mount Washington Valley is magnificent, even if shorter lived. 

[alex]

Stars were out half an hour ago and now it’s snowing quite heavily. I thought we were done. Nice big fat snowgloby flakes. 

[ORH_wxman]

2 hours ago, PhineasC said:

If they are so typical where the hell are they? LOL

It’s still pretty early. Even up there November can be quite spotty...some years it seems to really feel like deep winter and permanent snowpack sets in by 2nd or 3rd week but there’s plenty of years where it’s not much at all. 

[J.Spin]

3 hours ago, PhineasC said:

If they are so typical where the hell are they? LOL

Event totals: 3.1” Snow/0.83” L.E.

 

The air temperatures have definitely dropped well below freezing now, but it seems that along with some settling, the recent snow had melted somewhat from below due to the warm ground.  There were some stars visible at the most recent observations time, but another burst of snow has come into the area.

 

Details from the 10:00 P.M. Waterbury observations:

New Snow: 0.5 inches

New Liquid: 0.01 inches

Snow/Water Ratio: 50.0

Snow Density: 2.0% H2O

Temperature: 27.3 F

Sky: Partly Cloudy

Snow at the stake: 1.0 inches

[jculligan]

Actually managed to get into a little streamer of sorts, and we've had some pretty decent snow here for the last 45 minutes or so. I'll take an official measurement at midnight, but this is the most solid dusting we've had so far this season lol. 

[J.Spin]

4 hours ago, PhineasC said:

If they are so typical where the hell are they? LOL

What did Alex get out of today’s activity?  It’s possible that this was just one of those events where the bulk of the moisture just didn’t make it all the way over to the Whites.  As PF mentioned, the Greens are closer to the flow off the Great Lakes, so they cash in more easily on that moisture.

It always seems surprising to me that the Adirondacks don’t do even better in that regard – in theory they should have first dibs on that Great Lakes moisture even before us, but they really don’t seem to capitalize on it.  I’ve heard some theories in that it’s the shape of the range – the ‘dacks are sort of a centralized/circular jumble of mountains (supposedly they’re growing, being pushed up by some geological event underneath).  Maybe the moisture just gets around the range too easily.

In contrast, the Greens are lined up like a wall, a wall that’s 250 miles long.  That’s a big barrier for moisture, with only a few spots to sneak through (like the pass here in the Winooski Valley).  It’s also interesting to note that our direct flow off the lakes (well, specifically Lake Ontario, with maybe some assist from Lake Erie too) is from the southwest.  They say that folks in the lake-effect belts all know the wind direction to watch for with respect to their town/location, and for our direct flow off Ontario, a 250-260° wind direction is what we watch for around here in the Northern Greens.  But it’s interesting, sometimes we will have those direct flow events off Ontario where a spot like Mansfield will pick up a quick foot, but that’s certainly not our bread and butter.  Our bread and butter flow for typical upslope snow is from the northwest.  The moisture source is obvious when there’s a low pressure system sitting up in northern Maine wrapping the Atlantic into the spine, but when that’s not the case, it’s a bit more mysterious.  The Great Lakes certainly aren’t directly to our northwest, but apparently some of their moisture gets pooled there.  And another important point about that phenomenon is that indeed the Great Lakes aren’t to our northwest, but neither is anything else with respect to elevated terrain.  It’s lots of flat plains, and the wall of the Greens is the first thing that moisture has to deal with as it heads this way, and they really succeed in wringing out what they can.

We’ve had a number of years to get a feel for the microclimates around here in the Northern Greens, but that NNH area is definitely a bit more of a black box that needs consistent observations.  We’re definitely getting a feel for Alex’s area now with his input, but your area really is something new.

[alex]

Great write up JSpin. It seems that we always do much better when the moisture source is a departing storm, and that when it’s not we often don’t do as well as Mansfield. We had a couple of rounds yesterday - both mostly melted after as the sun poked through. The first one was 0.2”, the second 0.4”. It finally started snowing well last night and we picked up a couple of inches overnight - will measure when I get out with the kids, but the stake is at 2” so it’s approximately that. Still light snow this morning 

 

 

[PhineasC]

Surprised to see about an inch or so out there this morning. Very nice. 

[alex]

1.8”. Just light stuff now which probably won’t add up to anything 

[J.Spin]

Event totals: 4.5” Snow/0.86” L.E.

 

Details from the 6:00 A.M. Waterbury observations:

New Snow: 1.3 inches

New Liquid: 0.03 inches

Snow/Water Ratio: 43.3

Snow Density: 2.3% H2O

Temperature: 21.6 F

Sky: Light Snow (2-15 mm flakes)

Snow at the stake: 2.0 inches

[powderfreak]

6" on the snow cam at the mountain before it flipped this morning at 6am.  Looks like another inch since then.

Mansfield should be around 9" total for this event just by that board that usually is a little lower in total than the ground based board.

[bwt3650]

27 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

6" on the snow cam at the mountain before it flipped this morning at 6am.  Looks like another inch since then.

Mansfield should be around 9" total for this event just by that board that usually is a little lower in total than the ground based board.

Probably about the same...nice little event.  Deep winter again for a few days.

[mreaves]

I really slept on the wintryness of this time period.  I wasn't expecting it to be 18° this morning with on and off snow showers.  Not as much as you hill folk received but a nice covering with grass poking through. Maybe .75"?

[tamarack]

10 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

It’s still pretty early. Even up there November can be quite spotty...some years it seems to really feel like deep winter and permanent snowpack sets in by 2nd or 3rd week but there’s plenty of years where it’s not much at all. 

We've had 3, but way too early - Sept 30, Oct 13 and 16-17.

As J.Spin had no idea he was moving into a low-elevation snow paradise, I was clueless in 1998 that we were moving to one of the best low-elevation pack retention locations in the Maine foothills.  Some interesting (to me at least) comparisons of my site with the 2 nearby co-ops.  Farmington is 6 miles to my west and 420' (I'm at 395), New Sharon 3 lies miles SSE at 485'.
Averages, 1998-99 on:
Site                 Snow   Max depth  Days 1"+   SDDs  SDDS/snow
NS co-op        81.4          25.3          116          1,281      15.74
Farm co-op    92.1          31.6          111          1,698      18.44
Tamarack      90.6           29.6          124          1,800      19.87

NS co-op measures snow only at 7 AM, explaining some of the totals difference.  It's also a wind-scoured gentle N aspect, which may be limiting depth though days of cover are long.  Farmington co-op is on a moderate west aspect and doesn't hold 1-2" depths very well - in 2002-03, a low snow but cold winter, it had 99 days of 1"+ while NS co-op had 145 and I had 146.  My site is near fully stocked forest and even the bare-limbed hardwoods block 25-40% of sunlight.