Fall Banter and General Discussion

[tamarack]

44 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

 Back in the day my brother in law, rest his soul, let a young buck run his 1970 John Deere tractor to clean his half mile driveway of  1 to 2 feet of snow. About as much fun as it gets. That was my first taste of real plowing.  Granted I got stuck but thats another story lol 

Had my chance when a friend dislocated his shoulder and couldn't drive his very hard steering tractor - 1940s vintage, red so maybe a Case.  Pushing that April windslab - the place was at 1200' with a west aspect in Frenchville - was a challenge.  Also helped the apartment neighbor who got his little backhoe too close to the embankment and dropped the smaller wheels over the edge.  He pulled with the hoe while I did clutch/gas and flipped snow with the bucket and we finally got it back on the level. 

[Ginx snewx]

2 minutes ago, tamarack said:

Had my chance when a friend dislocated his shoulder and couldn't drive his very hard steering tractor - 1940s vintage, red so maybe a Case.  Pushing that April windslab - the place was at 1200' with a west aspect in Frenchville - was a challenge.  Also helped the apartment neighbor who got his little backhoe too close to the embankment and dropped the smaller wheels over the edge.  He pulled with the hoe while I did clutch/gas and flipped snow with the bucket and we finally got it back on the level. 

The stories of snow removal and logging from my youth are pretty hilarious.  Losing air breaks on a very steep hill with a full load of 20 foot logs and rolling backwards a quarter mile wasn't so funny though. Still can't believe we didn't hit anything. 

[Fozz]

33 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

I think he's about 1500 feet.

Honestly I am a bit jealous. Gotta work hard for the next 10 years I guess.

[HIPPYVALLEY]

Ha, not the headline you want.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/17/europe/coronavirus-europe-who-second-wave-intl/index.html

[powderfreak]

29 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Don’t worry, I am totally unprepared. I don’t even have a snow shovel yet. 

Did you ask the plow guy what a full season unlimited plowing is?  Honestly I don’t know anyone who averages over 100” that pays per event.  We do a winter contract at like 3” minimum...also includes twice a winter or so they’ll come in with the big guns (bucket loaders) and push everything way back onto the woods and lawn.  You’ll probably get 5 more feet than me too over the course of the winter, too.

If money isn’t *too* much of a concern maybe it doesn’t matter, I just feel like you’ll get fleeced at $80 per plow regardless of driveway length.  There’s a lot of houses up in your little area it looks like (up off Randolph Hill Rd) so I bet someone has a little monopoly up there and economies of scale might help lower the price a bit.  Hell some contractor probably just keeps heavy equipment up there like they would near a ski area with condos/homes... big buckets with chains that sound like diesel dinosaurs when they show up at 5am.

[PhineasC]

5 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Did you ask the plow guy what a full season unlimited plowing is?  Honestly I don’t know anyone who averages over 100” that pays per event.  We do a winter contract at like 3” minimum...also includes twice a winter or so they’ll come in with the big guns (bucket loaders) and push everything way back onto the woods and lawn.  You’ll probably get 5 more feet than me too over the course of the winter, too.

If money isn’t *too* much of a concern maybe it doesn’t matter, I just feel like you’ll get fleeced at $80 per plow regardless of driveway length.  There’s a lot of houses up in your little area it looks like (up off Randolph Hill Rd) so I bet someone has a little monopoly up there and economies of scale might help lower the price a bit.  Hell some contractor probably just keeps heavy equipment up there like they would near a ski area with condos/homes... big buckets with chains that sound like diesel dinosaurs when they show up at 5am.

I will look into that for sure. I figured I am getting fleeced. I’m the “rich” out of towner guy new to the area... easy mark. 

[dryslot]

1 hour ago, mreaves said:

 

I don't want him jinxing winter by being completely prepared.  If he puts that much $$ into getting ready for winter it will just be dud.  I propose that he not even buy a snow shovel.  At most he should get one of those electric, single stage snowblowers.

We should be all set, He doesn't snowmobile so we don't have to worry about him killing winter off by buying a new sled.

[dryslot]

11 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I will look into that for sure. I figured I am getting fleeced. I’m the “rich” out of towner guy new to the area... easy mark. 

So are you wearing sucker on the front or the back of the jacket or both?        lol

[powderfreak]

40 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I will look into that for sure. I figured I am getting fleeced. I’m the “rich” out of towner guy new to the area... easy mark. 

Ha, I was thinking the same thing.  As soon as they find out your from Maryland and are wealthy, they are like "lets lock him into a per-plowing rate.  He has no idea what's about to happen."  

No offense to any of the plow guys on here, but often times people joke about the fact that if you sign up for a per-plowing rate, the plow guy will be in your driveway every single time flakes fall from the sky.  But if you get the seasonal contract, you'll be wondering where the plow guy is.

[Cold Miser]

2 hours ago, Ginx snewx said:

So many many years of skiing basically all alone cept some locals late into April. Many years my tan was well established before summer began down here. Light coats, no gloves, sun glasses instead of goggles, beer flowing with that hippie vibe for days. I camped out in a tent with no problem in the early 90s one late April, skied all day, trout fished before dark. It just didn't get any better.  Miss it more than anyone here can imagine.  Get it while you can my friends.  

Really look forward to Phin crying for his Momma. Can someone please post the link to his Cam. I lost it

It's nice that you were able to experience all of that. Many won't, not because they can't but because they will put it off, and off and off.

[weathafella]

15 hours ago, PhineasC said:

The CoCoRaHS site in my sig averaged 185" over the past 10 years.

Wow!  

[Ginx snewx]

14 minutes ago, Cold Miser said:

It's nice that you were able to experience all of that. Many won't, not because they can't but because they will put it off, and off and off.

Thanks brother 

[Fozz]

1 hour ago, weathafella said:

Wow!  

I’m surprised they’ve reported more snow than even Pinkham Notch at 2000’, which has a 10 year average around 140-150”. Not sure which numbers to believe, or whether Randolph has some special upslope.

[PhineasC]

3 minutes ago, Fozz said:

I’m surprised they’ve reported more snow than even Pinkham Notch at 2000’, which has a 10 year average around 140-150”. Not sure which numbers to believe, or whether Randolph has some special upslope.

I believe someone here said the Pinkham Notch numbers are a little unreliable because there are a lot of missing reports, especially during the shoulder seasons. You can read the detailed comments from the Randolph observer each day. There are very, very few missing days and he/she seems really into taking obs.

[greenmtnwx]

5 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

I forget where you are....pretty close to Mt. Snow or Stratton, right?

Snowfall is pretty variable around there so I'd need to know which town and which side of that town. Like the western side of Wardsboro above 1300-1400 feet is probably 120-130 while eastern side lower down is maybe 90-100. Similar results in Jamaica and Dover.

The West Wardsboro coop averaged 117" when they were in commission from 1978-2011 and they were at 1400 feet. A lot of dogshit years in the 1980s too, so their longterm average is probably a bit higher in the 125-130 range would be my guess.

Thanks Will. That's exactly what I was thinking. We are far West Wardsboro at 1,700. I figured 120".

One other for you if you get a minute is my buddy has a camp up in Maidstone, VT right on corner of North Road and Route 102. Stones throw from the CT River at 1k feet, few minutes from Lancaster, NH. We debate whether my place in Southern Greens gets more snow or not. What would you put that place at?

It made me think when you guys were talking Whitefield and Littleton and how they were snowholes....lol

 

[Hoth]

2 hours ago, PhineasC said:

I will look into that for sure. I figured I am getting fleeced. I’m the “rich” out of towner guy new to the area... easy mark. 

Here's what we'll do. As it no longer snows in southern CT, I will enter into a snow futures contract with you. You ship me X cubic meters of snow each month on dry ice. Your total snow removal cost drops to nothing. I, in turn, will spread the snow and glaciate it with my hose, thereby making it a marvel of the CT River Valley. I will sell tickets to all and sundry to sled at a buck a run. I'll even have Ryan bring in "Snow Monster" for a cameo. I'll also enter into a snowfall credit default swap of sorts, in case your winter turns out like 2016. Deutsche will underwrite just about anything.

[PhineasC]

3 minutes ago, Hoth said:

Here's what we'll do. As it no longer snows in southern CT, I will enter into a snow futures contract with you. You ship me X cubic meters of snow each month on dry ice. Your total snow removal cost drops to nothing. I, in turn, will spread the snow and glaciate it with my hose, thereby making it a marvel of the CT River Valley. I will sell tickets to all and sundry to sled at a buck a run. I'll even have Ryan bring in "Snow Monster" for a cameo. I'll also enter into a snowfall credit default swap of sorts, in case your winter turns out like 2016. Deutsche will underwrite just about anything.

LOL that's a very generous offer, but I think CT would be better off if I shipped them some muddy ground and snowmelt runoff to ease the drought at this point!

[ORH_wxman]

3 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I believe someone here said the Pinkham Notch numbers are a little unreliable because there are a lot of missing reports, especially during the shoulder seasons. You can read the detailed comments from the Randolph observer each day. There are very, very few missing days and he/she seems really into taking obs.

Pinkham Notch used to be pristine but they have degraded just a tad over time. They started missing some big storms in the 1990s and 2000s IIRC...I haven't looked super recently, but perhaps they are missing some storms still. They are still a good coop, but if you miss even one moderate storm, that's a black mark.

Their mean snowfall from the 1930s to like 1980 was 167"....but it's been about 125-130" since then which kind of doesn't jibe with the rest of the region. They shouldn't have declined like 40" per year when much of the region has actually gone up or is at least comparable. It tells me they had a change in reporting. It could be something as innocuous as going to strictly once per day reporting which will deflate snowfall totals...plus if they are missing the occasional snowstorm like they did on 2/1/08 or 12/30/00 (they missed both of these I remember), then that is going to deflate annual averages further.

[powderfreak]

32 minutes ago, Fozz said:

I’m surprised they’ve reported more snow than even Pinkham Notch at 2000’, which has a 10 year average around 140-150”. Not sure which numbers to believe, or whether Randolph has some special upslope.

J.Spin gets more snow than that at 500ft. It also depends on how often someone measures.  If it’s just once every 24 hours, you definitely lose some when it snows all the time.  It seems that guy in Randolph is pretty diligent like J.Spin, judging by his written obs he isn’t missing any flakes.  His notes from that 2010 storm cycle show he was out measuring or collecting every 2-4 hours at one point.

NW flow snow though is a big deal... if you don’t get it, it can cost a good 40-50” a year.  There is almost like two sets of snowfall... IMO most places get pretty similar synoptic snow as a baseline.  Of course higher elevation will get more as you have the marginal events and better ratios at times...but the overall synoptic snow totals are pretty uniform to me.  The kicker is the NW flow snow and the places that do that well, along with the baseline synoptic snow, seem to do the 150-200” a year at under 1500ft or under. 

[dendrite]

Pinkham had a little bit of yore in their Feb 69 report. Their depth kept going up the same amount as the new snow even with depths well over 100”.  Maybe you could argue the depth was correct and they just called the increase in depth as the new snow? How much of that depth was due to drifting? Impressive nonetheless.

 

[ORH_wxman]

12 minutes ago, greenmtnwx said:

Thanks Will. That's exactly what I was thinking. We are far West Wardsboro at 1,700. I figured 120".

One other for you if you get a minute is my buddy has a camp up in Maidstone, VT right on corner of North Road and Route 102. Stones throw from the CT River at 1k feet, few minutes from Lancaster, NH. We debate whether my place in Southern Greens gets more snow or not. What would you put that place at?

It made me think when you guys were talking Whitefield and Littleton and how they were snowholes....lol

 

Yeah your 120 number is pretty close, if just a bit low....if you are 1700 feet, I'd prob put you 130"ish though based on the old West Wardsboro coop. They were 117" and at 1400 feet plus had the 1980s as like 1/3rd of their period of record and didn't "take advantage" of the 2010s as they stopped reporting at the beginning of the decade.

I don't think there is anywhere at 1000 feet up near Lancaster, NH that gets what you get at 1700 feet. My guess is he prob gets like 100"....maybe a little more. He's a little bit outside the death triangle but still not a great orographic spot.

[greenmtnwx]

2 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

 

5 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah your 120 number is pretty close, if just a bit low....if you are 1700 feet, I'd prob put you 130"ish though based on the old West Wardsboro coop. They were 117" and at 1400 feet plus had the 1980s as like 1/3rd of their period of record and didn't "take advantage" of the 2010s as they stopped reporting at the beginning of the decade.

I don't think there is anywhere at 1000 feet up near Lancaster, NH that gets what you get at 1700 feet. My guess is he prob gets like 100"....maybe a little more. He's a little bit outside the death triangle but still not a great orographic spot.

Thanks buddy. 130", I guess I'm doing ok...lol

 

[CoastalWx]

So is my 2015 pack second to Phin’s place?

[tamarack]

4 hours ago, Ginx snewx said:

The stories of snow removal and logging from my youth are pretty hilarious.  Losing air breaks on a very steep hill with a full load of 20 foot logs and rolling backwards a quarter mile wasn't so funny though. Still can't believe we didn't hit anything. 

Sounds like fun.  When I was up north, one of the Jackson clan from Allagash was hauling a load of tree-length spruce toward St.-Pamphile and was approaching the crest of a short but steep hill when the driveshaft broke and one end whipped around and cut his air hose.  With no go and no brakes, he attempted to keep everything in the narrow and slightly curved road as he rolled backwards.  Almost inevitably, that didn't happen and he was rolling so fast when he jackknifed that the trailer fortunately* ripped off the 5th wheel as it was tipping over and the once-forward butts of the spruce ended up pointed back from where they had come from. 
*Repairing the 5th wheel assembly wasn't cheap but far less than fixing a cab that had gone tail over teakettle, not to mention what might've happened to the driver.

[powderfreak]

29 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

So is my 2015 pack second to Phin’s place?

What’s Tamarack got?  I feel like he’s got some big Fort Kent packs in his years.  Mine’s 42” in 2011 after the 3/5-6 event for places I’ve lived.

You might still be the leader if the rule is you need to experience it, ha.  Give Phin a couple years to get it.

[tamarack]

2 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

Pinkham Notch used to be pristine but they have degraded just a tad over time. They started missing some big storms in the 1990s and 2000s IIRC...I haven't looked super recently, but perhaps they are missing some storms still. They are still a good coop, but if you miss even one moderate storm, that's a black mark.

Their mean snowfall from the 1930s to like 1980 was 167"....but it's been about 125-130" since then which kind of doesn't jibe with the rest of the region. They shouldn't have declined like 40" per year when much of the region has actually gone up or is at least comparable. It tells me they had a change in reporting. It could be something as innocuous as going to strictly once per day reporting which will deflate snowfall totals...plus if they are missing the occasional snowstorm like they did on 2/1/08 or 12/30/00 (they missed both of these I remember), then that is going to deflate annual averages further.

Just peeked at some Pinkham numbers and found an early January event in 2010 with about 1.5" and M for snow at teens/mid 20s and only a 3" gain in depth.  The 4/1/11 storm gave them 1.2" LE with 1" snow recorded, temps upper 20s.  Low elev places generally got 10-15.  That said, I wonder if they get shadowed by Wildcat for synoptic events and by MWN when winds turn NW.
And while the pack additions in 1969 look suspicious (how does one even measure a depth that's 7 FEET greater than any other on record at one's location), a 77" dump is impressive.

[tamarack]

14 hours ago, powderfreak said:

What’s Tamarack got?  I feel like he’s got some big Fort Kent packs in his years.  Mine’s 42” in 2011 after the 3/5-6 event for places I’ve lived.

You might still be the leader if the rule is you need to experience it, ha.  Give Phin a couple years to get it.

65" near the end of the 26.5" storm of March 14-15, 1984 is tops - measured 80" on Big Twenty Twp.  We'd reached 61" the morning after the 18.5" surprise* in early Feb but was settled to 59" at obs time.  Then the 2nd half of Feb ran 15-20 AN and the pack dropped to 35".  Without that thaw, just imagine. 
*The forecast had been 1-3, so the parking lot plowers weren't alerted until it was too late - Fort Kent's only full day lost to snow in our 10 years there.  They lost a half day to the March event - 6" that morning with 6+ expected, by noon another 8 had fallen and it was coming 3"/hr so they sent the kids home, and everyone made it without serious issue, some living 30 miles and many hills from the high school.

2nd place is 54" in March 1977 - that winter's 186.5" in the most I've measured.  Next are the 49 (09) and 48 (01 and 08) where I now live.  Have topped 40 in 6 of 22 winters here.

[ORH_wxman]

53 minutes ago, tamarack said:

Just peeked at some Pinkham numbers and found an early January event in 2010 with about 1.5" and M for snow at teens/mid 20s and only a 3" gain in depth.  The 4/1/11 storm gave them 1.2" LE with 1" snow recorded, temps upper 20s.  Low elev places generally got 10-15.  That said, I wonder if they get shadowed by Wildcat for synoptic events and by MWN when winds turn NW.
And while the pack additions in 1969 look suspicious (how does one even measure a depth that's 7 FEET greater than any other on record at one's location), a 77" dump is impressive.

I think Pinkham doesn’t quite get the upslope that the north side of the presidentials get....they probably need really unblocked flow....but I don’t think they are shadowed much by wildcat in synoptic events since they are so close to it and the flow doesn’t get as blocked in low levels for synoptic events as it does in upslope events. I’d think they are easily a net winner on orographics in most synoptic events. Maybe at the tail end on NW/NNW winds they could struggle as you mention...that’s typically when the moisture is more low level and the flow could start getting blocked some by MWN/Adams/Madison.  

That April 2011 measurement looks just plain bad. 

[monadnocks]

3 hours ago, Hoth said:

Here's what we'll do. As it no longer snows in southern CT, I will enter into a snow futures contract with you. You ship me X cubic meters of snow each month on dry ice. Your total snow removal cost drops to nothing. I, in turn, will spread the snow and glaciate it with my hose, thereby making it a marvel of the CT River Valley. I will sell tickets to all and sundry to sled at a buck a run. I'll even have Ryan bring in "Snow Monster" for a cameo. I'll also enter into a snowfall credit default swap of sorts, in case your winter turns out like 2016. Deutsche will underwrite just about anything.

Absolutely perfect!

[alex]

1 hour ago, tamarack said:

Just peeked at some Pinkham numbers and found an early January event in 2010 with about 1.5" and M for snow at teens/mid 20s and only a 3" gain in depth.  The 4/1/11 storm gave them 1.2" LE with 1" snow recorded, temps upper 20s.  Low elev places generally got 10-15.  That said, I wonder if they get shadowed by Wildcat for synoptic events and by MWN when winds turn NW.
And while the pack additions in 1969 look suspicious (how does one even measure a depth that's 7 FEET greater than any other on record at one's location), a 77" dump is impressive.

Busy day so I haven't been on at all, but Pinkham Notch gets significantly less upslope than we do. Our numbers from the past couple of years seem to align pretty well with Randolph coop so I think it makes sense.