The 2020-2021 Ski season thread

[GCWarrior]

8 hours ago, bwt3650 said:

Bold move by epic...was seriously considering switching to ikon, but for $359 midweek vs. $729, I think they got me.  

If I could ski midweek besides the home hill I’d be all over any Epic pass.  I’m only about 50 mins from Mount Snow.  But Mount Snow doesn’t really excite me on weekends.  Stratton I’m not sure is better but I grew up skiing Stratton so I may get there a few times.  K/Pico is always nice given Ks early and late season offerings. Pico is never crowded mid season. I’m also looking to head to Utah next season so Ikon is tempting me more. 

[greenmtnwx]

Stay far away from Epic. Vail Resorts is a disaster. Mount Snow had been horrendous last couple of years and generally anything Vail touches they turn to crap. Obviously dependent on your proximity, but Ikon a much better pass. 

[PhineasC]

9 minutes ago, greenmtnwx said:

Stay far away from Epic. Vail Resorts is a disaster. Mount Snow had been horrendous last couple of years and generally anything Vail touches they turn to crap. Obviously dependent on your proximity, but Ikon a much better pass. 

Not a good deal for midweek skiing from NH, which is what we do.

[powderfreak]

10 hours ago, greenmtnwx said:

Stay far away from Epic. Vail Resorts is a disaster. Mount Snow had been horrendous last couple of years and generally anything Vail touches they turn to crap. Obviously dependent on your proximity, but Ikon a much better pass. 

It's a volume over yield business.  From what I've seen they generally know how to run a slick operation but we had it pretty dialed at Stowe as it was.  The issues arise from just throwing a lot of people at the mountain every day.  Skiing is now affordable for a LOT of people.  For years people always complained about skiing being reserved for the 1% and wealthy elite.  Now it's getting very affordable and people are like wait, we take it back.  We want it to be too expensive and for the one percenters. 

[GCWarrior]

Off skiing this weekend elsewhere but keeping my eye on next weekend down here.  I think if Berkshire East can survive the heat today and rain sunday they may be able to move some snow around late next week and have one last hurrah 4/3 and 4/4.  The base is pretty strong down low and they blew lots of snow up on the hill so we shall see.  Cold nightly temps late next week would allow them to groom. Been a good ride down here on mostly manmade snow this month.    

[bwt3650]

12 hours ago, greenmtnwx said:

Stay far away from Epic. Vail Resorts is a disaster. Mount Snow had been horrendous last couple of years and generally anything Vail touches they turn to crap. Obviously dependent on your proximity, but Ikon a much better pass. 

What part of Mount Snow has been horrendous?  It has always had issues with crowds due to it's proximity.  I haven't noticed them blowing less snow or cutting corners on the Mountain.  In fact, I think they open earlier now then pre vail and peak.  If you are judging by this year, I think that's a mistake because it was crowded everywhere to some extend.  Maybe they could have run the Grand Summit Express more often to help with lines at the Bluebird, but other than that, I don't think Vail did anything to make it horrendous.  Now, if you are talking customer service or trying to get someone on the phone to deal with the passes, that's a different story.  But I think Mt. Snow was the same as it has always been.

[GCWarrior]

How do Stratton and Okemo compare to Mount Snow on the weekend?  I'm just curious.  Only SVT mountain ive really skied the last several years on a weekend day is Magic. 

[LongBeachSurfFreak]

2 hours ago, GCWarrior said:

How do Stratton and Okemo compare to Mount Snow on the weekend?  I'm just curious.  Only SVT mountain ive really skied the last several years on a weekend day is Magic. 

They are all crowded. The limited loading of chairs and Gondi at Stratton have been an issue.      I haven’t been to Mt snow or Okemo this season but I would expect the same. I’m heading up tomorrow for what hopefully isn’t the last weekend 

[powderfreak]

6 minutes ago, LongBeachSurfFreak said:

They are all crowded. The limited loading of chairs and Gondi at Stratton have been an issue.      I haven’t been to Mt snow or Okemo this season but I would expect the same. I’m heading up tomorrow for what hopefully isn’t the last weekend 

The crowds have left this week up here.  Been a long time since the Gondola and Quad were ski on with the reduced uphill capacity.

The tourists don’t like the summer skiing but the locals act like they just took MDMA with some sunshine and warmth.  

[bch2014]

@powderfreak

How are the base depths holding on the main snowmaking trails? What do you think you'll come out of this week with? 

[powderfreak]

1 minute ago, bch2014 said:

@powderfreak

How are the base depths holding on the main snowmaking trails? What do you think you'll come out of this week with? 

It’s taking a beating.  Quad side in the best shape for sure.  That aspect helps a lot.  South facing Spruce is getting eviscerated.  Gondola is holding in there but as usual is somewhere between the other two.  Gondolier might actually be in better shape that Perry Merrill which is different.

Natural snow is going real fast at 1500ft and anything south facing on the dial.

[GCWarrior]

13 minutes ago, LongBeachSurfFreak said:

They are all crowded. The limited loading of chairs and Gondi at Stratton have been an issue.      I haven’t been to Mt snow or Okemo this season but I would expect the same. I’m heading up tomorrow for what hopefully isn’t the last weekend 

I meant in general in a normal year. I have found this year to be challenging most anywhere. 

[PhineasC]

Ah, Cannon.

Where you can have an actively-flowing stream in the middle of a main trail at 70 degrees... and somehow it is still icy all over the place.

I skied at Cannon about 20 days this season and just never enjoyed the conditions all that much. It always feels like you are fighting the snow. Maybe it's just me, but I normally like firm and fast steep runs, which should be Cannon's strength.

The spring conditions here are weird. Tons of active melt in the middle of trails, a layer of mashed potatoes, and sheet ice still underneath. Something is just wrong with the snow at this place.

[greenmtnwx]

7 hours ago, bwt3650 said:

What part of Mount Snow has been horrendous?  It has always had issues with crowds due to it's proximity.  I haven't noticed them blowing less snow or cutting corners on the Mountain.  In fact, I think they open earlier now then pre vail and peak.  If you are judging by this year, I think that's a mistake because it was crowded everywhere to some extend.  Maybe they could have run the Grand Summit Express more often to help with lines at the Bluebird, but other than that, I don't think Vail did anything to make it horrendous.  Now, if you are talking customer service or trying to get someone on the phone to deal with the passes, that's a different story.  But I think Mt. Snow was the same as it has always been.

What part hasn’t? If you are familiar with the mountain and “mountain-speak” you will know the last two years there have been horrendous.

[bwt3650]

1 hour ago, greenmtnwx said:

What part hasn’t? If you are familiar with the mountain and “mountain-speak” you will know the last two years there have been horrendous.

You are answering a question with a question...What part do you think was horrendous?  Look, I don't work for vail or Mt. Snow or anything, and quite frankly, Mt. Snow is not even in my top 3 in Vermont.  It's close by when I'm not up North, they blow a ton of snow, and the North Face can be decent to get some laps in.  But you post things like "vail sucks" and "Mt snow is horrendous" and don't say why.  I will say Vail customer service sucked this year.  You couldn't get anyone to talk to, they lost passes, and they were clearly understaffed.  But that's the call center stuff. I've been to Mt. Snow under peak and Vail and I didn't notice anything that was" horrendous" in comparison this year, especially considering Covid stuff.

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, greenmtnwx said:

What part hasn’t? If you are familiar with the mountain and “mountain-speak” you will know the last two years there have been horrendous.

The crowds? Snowmaking?  Grooming?  Everything is worse now?  I'm a little curious too but I am always careful as a VR employee to push it too far (full disclosure, they seem to treat me well and pay me far better with benefits, bonuses, etc than previous ownership and nearby competitors.  I don't care who the owner is, I love Stowe and Mount Mansfield so my opinions will reflect those locally) .  I do like to ask opinions though as maybe I can help avoid it or do little things to change that when the opportunities present themselves.  I'm no big wig but for some reason they respect me and I feel like I have a voice. 

In the industry there is what is termed the "Vail Sucks Guy" that sort of follows a certain pattern.  You said everything Vail touches turns to shit and then @bwt3650 gave some examples he saw, and hit the nail on the head about remote customer service just being completely unprepared for the call volume.  Embarrassing.  It seemed like an honest thought process of pros and cons.  That's what we  We always talk about it because we want to know what's wrong but the majority of comments seem to be of a "Vail Sucks Guy" mentality.

Here's the condensed definition from the Storm Skiing Journal:

"Do you want Vail Sucks Guy to elaborate? Good luck. There are plenty of thoughtful critiques of Vail out there. They did not come from Vail Sucks Guy.  Vail Sucks Guy knows “a lot” of people who have been screwed over by Vail. Vail Sucks Guy could tell you some stories. But he won’t. Instead, Vail Sucks Guy is just going to tell you that Vail sucks."

[MarkO]

3 hours ago, PhineasC said:

Ah, Cannon.

Where you can have an actively-flowing stream in the middle of a main trail at 70 degrees... and somehow it is still icy all over the place.

I skied at Cannon about 20 days this season and just never enjoyed the conditions all that much. It always feels like you are fighting the snow. Maybe it's just me, but I normally like firm and fast steep runs, which should be Cannon's strength.

The spring conditions here are weird. Tons of active melt in the middle of trails, a layer of mashed potatoes, and sheet ice still underneath. Something is just wrong with the snow at this place.

That's exactly Cannon for ya. If you're going to ski it, you really should have race tuned skis.  

[Ginx snewx]

3 hours ago, PhineasC said:

Ah, Cannon.

Where you can have an actively-flowing stream in the middle of a main trail at 70 degrees... and somehow it is still icy all over the place.

I skied at Cannon about 20 days this season and just never enjoyed the conditions all that much. It always feels like you are fighting the snow. Maybe it's just me, but I normally like firm and fast steep runs, which should be Cannon's strength.

The spring conditions here are weird. Tons of active melt in the middle of trails, a layer of mashed potatoes, and sheet ice still underneath. Something is just wrong with the snow at this place.

Spring wax my man

[PhineasC]

Just now, Ginx snewx said:

Spring wax my man

Going slow or getting hitches was not an issue. The snow was plenty fast at Cannon today, faster and firmer than BW. I just couldn't believe it was still icy at 70 degrees with the trails actively melting down around me. What on earth does it take for this place to not be icy? Many of the trails were being cut in half by active water flow down the center. 

The areas in the front of the lifts at the base were basically ponds, which is always kinda fun but it was just mud under the water in a lot of spots, not even slush. I don't see how they stay open after the rains this weekend. 

[powderfreak]

Regardless of ski area, the story is similar.

The snow depth on Mansfield at the fabled COOP stake is at 36”.  Last year it was May 22nd before the depth dropped below that level.

Two full months later than today, I was hiking with the dog with a similar snowpack up high.  This is turning into an impressive melt, with the rain and maybe some convection still to come.  

[PhineasC]

3 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Regardless of ski area, the story is similar.

The snow depth on Mansfield at the fabled COOP stake is at 36”.  Last year it was May 22nd before the depth dropped below that level.

Two full months later than today, I was hiking with the dog with a similar snowpack up high.  This is turning into an impressive melt, with the rain and maybe some convection still to come.  

I feel like J. Spin could find some way to tell me that data point is still a sign of a good normal year like any other, though.   

[bwt3650]

I was hoping a flip to heavy wet snow with some upslope this weekend/early next week could save it for a bit, but yeah, it’s looking bad.  I could see not being able to fix the lower run outs to the lifts at lower elevations enough being an issue.  Would be nice if mon or thurs trended colder to buy us some time.

[powderfreak]

24 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I feel like J. Spin could find some way to tell me that data point is still a sign of a good normal year like any other, though.   

I won’t lie, I still think we have one in the bank.  It would be very hard to completely miss on a synoptic event from March 1 onward for the mountains.  Maybe it comes April 15th on Tax Day (it has in the past), or even April 27-28th in 2010 when 5-24” (5” BTV, 24” at 3,000ft plot) fell across NNE. Led to May 1st snow cover in the mountains.  CoCoRAHS early days back then.

[Ginx snewx]

37 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Going slow or getting hitches was not an issue. The snow was plenty fast at Cannon today, faster and firmer than BW. I just couldn't believe it was still icy at 70 degrees with the trails actively melting down around me. What on earth does it take for this place to not be icy? Many of the trails were being cut in half by active water flow down the center. 

The areas in the front of the lifts at the base were basically ponds, which is always kinda fun but it was just mud under the water in a lot of spots, not even slush. I don't see how they stay open after the rains this weekend. 

March 2012 like in the mountains 

[MarkO]

Maybe Sunday can pull of something like the October 17th storm. I had white rain all day, Cannon got a few inches of slush at the bottom when I drove by, but BW was about 5" at the base and about 18 up top. 

[bwt3650]

2 hours ago, powderfreak said:

The crowds? Snowmaking?  Grooming?  Everything is worse now?  I'm a little curious too but I am always careful as a VR employee to push it too far (full disclosure, they seem to treat me well and pay me far better with benefits, bonuses, etc than previous ownership and nearby competitors.  I don't care who the owner is, I love Stowe and Mount Mansfield so my opinions will reflect those locally) .  I do like to ask opinions though as maybe I can help avoid it or do little things to change that when the opportunities present themselves.  I'm no big wig but for some reason they respect me and I feel like I have a voice. 

In the industry there is what is termed the "Vail Sucks Guy" that sort of follows a certain pattern.  You said everything Vail touches turns to shit and then @bwt3650 gave some examples he saw, and hit the nail on the head about remote customer service just being completely unprepared for the call volume.  Embarrassing.  It seemed like an honest thought process of pros and cons.  That's what we  We always talk about it because we want to know what's wrong but the majority of comments seem to be of a "Vail Sucks Guy" mentality.

Here's the condensed definition from the Storm Skiing Journal:

"Do you want Vail Sucks Guy to elaborate? Good luck. There are plenty of thoughtful critiques of Vail out there. They did not come from Vail Sucks Guy.  Vail Sucks Guy knows “a lot” of people who have been screwed over by Vail. Vail Sucks Guy could tell you some stories. But he won’t. Instead, Vail Sucks Guy is just going to tell you that Vail sucks."

The “vail sucks guy” was hanging out on Facebook a lot this year with the “why is the flyer on wind-hold guy; don’t they care about covid”....The “wind hold guy” would bash jay because “he’s been skiing his whole life and it’s not that windy at the base...and now all these lift lines are longer and spreading covid all over and it’s going to cause a super outbreak all because you put the lift on wind-hold when it’s not windy”...mean while, the wind on tower 16 is over 60 mph...
 

[J.Spin]

On 3/25/2021 at 8:38 PM, PhineasC said:

I feel like J. Spin could find some way to tell me that data point is still a sign of a good normal year like any other, though.   

I’m not sure what to tell you Phin, it feels like you want the sky to have fallen at some point to knock the overall ski season in NNE into the gutter, but it just really… didn’t.  Constantly pining for a big synoptic storm over your way may have gotten to you, but it really wasn’t that bad of a ski season.  It had a slow start in November and December, but a very solid two months in the middle with impressive retention and great, consistent, midwinter conditions.  We had more snows and powder days through the first half of March, and since then it’s been nice, warm spring skiing.  Overall snowfall in the mountains around here was certainly on the low side, but that was reasonably offset by the above average midwinter snow preservation.  An outstandingly wintry March and April could certainly have kicked it up a notch in my book, but many recreational skiers don’t want that – they want nice warm days in the spring vs. more snows intermixed with gray, firm conditions.

Overall I’d rate it at a C- at this point, with C being average.  PF and I have been through some clunkers, and the middle of this season was just too consistent and good to really put this it in that neighborhood.  At least that’s how I’d describe it over here in the Northern Greens.  We’re sort of lucky in that an “average” season over here is typically above average for much of the region, so maybe it was different over there in NNH.

PF is a very straight shooter on this sort of stuff, and he’s literally out on the mountain just about every day throughout the ski season, so he has a very good feel for the tenor of a season.  If he says it’s been a well below average ski season in terms of quality, then I’d believe him.

[PhineasC]

30 minutes ago, J.Spin said:

I’m not sure what to tell you Phin, it feels like you want the sky to have fallen at some point to knock the overall ski season in NNE into the gutter, but it just really… didn’t.  Constantly pining for a big synoptic storm over your way may have gotten to you, but it really wasn’t that bad of a ski season.  It had a slow start in November and December, but a very solid two months in the middle with impressive retention and great, consistent, midwinter conditions.  We had more snows and powder days through the first half of March, and since then it’s been nice, warm spring skiing.  Overall snowfall in the mountains around here was certainly on the low side, but that was reasonably offset by the above average midwinter snow preservation.  An outstandingly wintry March and April could certainly have kicked it up a notch in my book, but many recreational skiers don’t want that – they want nice warm days in the spring vs. more snows intermixed with gray, firm conditions.

Overall I’d rate it at a C- at this point, with C being average.  PF and I have been through some clunkers, and the middle of this season was just too consistent and good to really put this it in that neighborhood.  At least that’s how I’d describe it over here in the Northern Greens.  We’re sort of lucky in that an “average” season over here is typically above average for much of the region, so maybe it was different over there in NNH.

PF if a very straight shooter on this sort of stuff, and he’s literally out on the mountain just about every day throughout the ski season, so he has a very good feel for the tenor of a season.  If he says it’s been a well below average ski season in terms of quality, then I’d believe him.

I was more talking about seasonal snowfall and depth rather than experience on the slopes.

What would a D or F season look like in your experience? My very newbie take is that this season is probably closer to the bottom of the pile than the middle for the peaks at least in terms of snowfall, open terrain, and depth, but perhaps I am off base there. The next couple weeks are not looking good either to make up any of the delta.

I think a lot of this depends on what you are looking for in a season. I skied 4-5 days a week all season, so I was out there a lot. I had very, very few bad days and the conditions at BW are still good by spring standards for what I like (firm and fast). I would rate this season a B, probably. It would have been nice if it got rolling earlier, but otherwise it gave me many great days.

On the flip side, there were very few powder days here in NNH. The vast majority of the events came at night and/or were in the 1-2 inch range. IMO, the conditions in the glades around here never got above "adequate" level except for a brief period in early Feb after the last big synoptic event. I can tell from the posts on the forum that there were many more powder days in the Northern Greens. That may be causing some of the disconnect in perceptions.

[mreaves]

2015-16 was an F as was 2005-6. 2011-12 was a D

[Skivt2]

40 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I was more talking about seasonal snowfall and depth rather than experience on the slopes.

What would a D or F season look like in your experience? My very newbie take is that this season is probably closer to the bottom of the pile than the middle for the peaks at least in terms of snowfall, open terrain, and depth, but perhaps I am off base there. The next couple weeks are not looking good either to make up any of the delta.

I think a lot of this depends on what you are looking for in a season. I skied 4-5 days a week all season, so I was out there a lot. I had very, very few bad days and the conditions at BW are still good by spring standards for what I like (firm and fast). I would rate this season a B, probably. It would have been nice if it got rolling earlier, but otherwise it gave me many great days.

On the flip side, there were very few powder days here in NNH. The vast majority of the events came at night and/or were in the 1-2 inch range. IMO, the conditions in the glades around here never got above "adequate" level except for a brief period in early Feb after the last big synoptic event. I can tell from the posts on the forum that there were many more powder days in the Northern Greens. That may be causing some of the disconnect in perceptions.

A bad season in Vermontvis one where the glades and natural snow trails are not skiable at all during the season.  We have seen that. In 15-16 Pico opened on 1/6 and closed on 3/14. We never got in the woods nor on our favorite natural snow trails.   Never the less Killington skied superstar until Memorial Day.  So a bad winter is low snowfall interspersed with rain events that wash away the snow every time it falls.  That is what a ratter looks around here.