The 2020-2021 Ski season thread

[powderfreak]

48 minutes ago, bch2014 said:

I think the frustrating piece for Attitash and Wildcat skiers is that Cannon, Loon, BW, Cranmore, etc, their chief competitors, have done a far better job of getting terrain open this season. 
 

Cannon, for example, has upwards of 40 trails open. Cannon isn’t exactly a resort known for its snowmaking and grooming (not that they’re bad-but it’s not Okemo). 

Yeah I see that now.  That's impressive for Cannon to be honest.  We have 40 trails open at Stowe.  I'll have to reach out to my buddy.

[Angus]

14 minutes ago, PowderBeard said:

NH has some little gems for sure. Have you ever hit Whaleback? I wish that place got more snow, it has some seriously fun and challenging terrain. Their intermediate trails are steeper than most advanced runs at Stratton, Mount Snow, or Okemo. There is a reason why the Whaleback freeride kids do so well at Ski the East and other comps. 

Like everyone driving past the place, you look up and say 'looks fun' and then note there is no snow on the slopes. Two decades plus ago I had two colleagues - now both live in Park City - bumped into the then owner who tossed them a couple of free tickets, they came back saying the place was a hoot. I've heard some of the best terrain isn't visible from the 89. It is nice that it seems to have become a community hill.

[powderfreak]

45 minutes ago, J.Spin said:

Thanks PF, that’s really insightful stuff that the average resort visitor is not going to be aware of.  I always knew that snowmaking was much more efficient down at those lower temperatures (to a point, since I know you’ve said that are issues when it gets too cold), but I had no idea the temperature threshold for decent efficiency (mid 20s F) was so low.  Obviously wet bulb temperatures etc. play into that too, but wow, I figured the big efficiency issues didn’t start until you got to around 32 F and above.  As a skier, I’ve been loving these moderate temperatures we’ve had thus far in December and January – cold enough to get snow and hold it (barring the storms where we get into the warm sector significantly of course), but not so cold that we’re freezing our butts off out there.  I look at the forecast and see mountain high temperatures in the 20s to near 30 F and think, “sweet!” – I had no idea that the departures were representing such a challenge for snowmaking.

Yeah so the old land frame snow guns (those jet engine sounding tripods) that used to get dragged around all over the place at ski areas and set-up to blast you at about head height can make snow at high temperatures pretty decently.  That equipment is very good at high temperatures and high moisture but it's largely not used anymore except by like Killington early season up high.

Really the sweet spot for snowmaking starts at a wet bulb of 25F and lower.  You usually fire up at like 26/27 degrees and falling to come into it... on the upside you usually start shutting down at those temps on the rise and aim for full shut down by 28F.  The production curve starts to bend sharply at that 26F type level on a lot of the energy efficient equipment.  Like you can make snow at 29F but it really is a waste of time per acre foot of production.  You are spending a lot of money to put down like an inch in 12 hours when say at 26F you can do that inch in an hour (not exactly but you get the idea of a sharp curve).

The actual prime snowmaking temperature is actually 14 degrees per HKD company's tests... they found production actually decreases due to evaporation and losing water to the air or the parcels aren't heavy enough to fall to the ground.  So like arctic air gives that large snowmaking clouds that float around in the air and it's just wasted water to be honest, ha.

Snowmaking is fascinating to me.  

[mreaves]

55 minutes ago, Angus said:

Like everyone driving past the place, you look up and say 'looks fun' and then note there is no snow on the slopes. Two decades plus ago I had two colleagues - now both live in Park City - bumped into the then owner who tossed them a couple of free tickets, they came back saying the place was a hoot. I've heard some of the best terrain isn't visible from the 89. It is nice that it seems to have become a community hill.

It is a non-profit community ski hill.  I actually tried to get the golf course I'm a member of to go that route and tried reaching out to them but never heard back.  It's a good story though.  I've gone to snowmobile races there.

https://www.whaleback.com/whalebackmountainboard

[bwt3650]

17 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah so the old land frame snow guns (those jet engine sounding tripods) that used to get dragged around all over the place at ski areas and set-up to blast you at about head height can make snow at high temperatures pretty decently.  That equipment is very good at high temperatures and high moisture but it's largely not used anymore except by like Killington early season up high.

Really the sweet spot for snowmaking starts at a wet bulb of 25F and lower.  You usually fire up at like 26/27 degrees and falling to come into it... on the upside you usually start shutting down at those temps on the rise and aim for full shut down by 28F.  The production curve starts to bend sharply at that 26F type level on a lot of the energy efficient equipment.  Like you can make snow at 29F but it really is a waste of time per acre foot of production.  You are spending a lot of money to put down like an inch in 12 hours when say at 26F you can do that inch in an hour (not exactly but you get the idea of a sharp curve).

The actual prime snowmaking temperature is actually 14 degrees per HKD company's tests... they found production actually decreases due to evaporation and losing water to the air or the parcels aren't heavy enough to fall to the ground.  So like arctic air gives that large snowmaking clouds that float around in the air and it's just wasted water to be honest, ha.

Snowmaking is fascinating to me.  

Jay didn’t get your memo on the more energy efficient guns today.  Really great stuff.  Awesome learning the ins and outs of a ski resort.  If I could do it all over, would have found a job at a resort or maybe pick up something part time in retirement.  I’m guessing the temps lower temps at jay have helped keep them blasting over some of the other resorts.  Might also be that in some years, there wasn’t such a need with more natural.  Also maybe a good year to market the capability of the system and ability to keep drawing visitors with the thought once we return to a post covid world soon, the potential buyers for the resort will return.  Apparently, the sale was pretty close before covid. 

[MarkO]

We got one fan gun for the local hill here at Waterville Estates. Two years ago we laid down about an acre-foot of snow on our rope tow trail in December using our domestic water supply. It was a wild success and we were able to keep the rope tow open Christmas week and it lasted into April (there was still some snow left mid May). Last year a few members who don't ski successfully prevent us from using the domestic water (they "didn't buy here for the amenities"). Fortunately there was a huge backlash from most of the owners who do, so now we're looking to draw water from one of the local ponds (about 1000' away). There are 3 main trails served by our double chair, so we're hoping we can get at least one of those trails covered in man made next winter. How we do this with on gun, we'll have to figure out, but the main trail is only about 3 additional acres and it finishes on the rope tow slope. It's only about 315' vertical, but it's a great place for the kids. We have night skiing and a great little lodge. Perfect place to hit on weekend nights. The atmosphere is great. 

[rcostell]

2 hours ago, powderfreak said:

No I bet everyone is trying extremely hard.  The casual skier has been ripping the ski industry for "not trying" but I think it's more of a lack of understanding of snowmaking too... or at least an educational piece.  

Places really need sustained 25-26F or below to make snow.  Days rotting at highs of 32F and lows of 24F really are just a waste.  We've gotten hammered by people wondering why it's 28F but there's no snowmaking.  Most of the energy efficient equipment now does need lower wet bulb temperatures.  The old school land frames that like Killington drags out in October can make snow at 28F but most of the newer stuff (energy efficient!) needs colder temperatures.  The large fan guns we have shut themselves off at 26F.  The main system at resorts can take hours to sufficiently charge too.  When charging the system, it takes a decent time to get sufficient water pressure up 2,000 vertical feet of terrain.  Resorts are pretty nimble, but in general snowmaking isn't going to fire up for 3-4 hours of temperatures during the early morning hours.  So like a brief low of 22F doesn't really do any good.  It needs to get down low and stay there for 6-8 hours at least to be worth firing up.

The temperatures have been very warm too.  Looking at the Mansfield COOP data for the Summit (ie. coldest place around)....

December 2020 was +7 to +8F above normal.  And here's where it impacts snowmaking:

Normal December... 22F Max and 8F Min

This December... 29F Max and 17F Min

The mean temperature this month was 22.5F (at the summit, coldest place on the hill) compared to 15.3F normally.  That's actually an extremely significant difference for our snowmaking.  Normal December temperatures are just cold enough for round the clock snowmaking on average, but if all elevations average 5-8F higher than normal we are crossing that threshold where it's very unfavorable.  MVL ASOS down in radiation-ville was +5.3... a significant positive departure.

In my semi-education opinion on snowmaking and weather, I think this start to the ski season has been a perception issue where the temperatures haven't been cold at all.  It's actually ridiculously warm for departures to be honest.  But it also has rotted for days and days of temperatures that are just cold enough to preserve snow or get natural to fall, but NOT be cold enough for decent snowmaking if that makes sense.

This month crossed the threshold with temperatures relative to normal where it has drastically impacted snowmaking operations at a lot of resorts.  The constant start up, shut down, start up, shut down, is a huge amount of human capital too.  The labor and time to do that over and over and over all month is not ideal.  Also with COVID restrictions, you used to be able to put a dozen snowmakers into a Bus Cat (Snowcat with transport cabin on back of it) and drop them off all at once.  Now snowmaking teams at area resorts need to transport each other one or two at a time.  Can't fill 12 seats in a Bus Cat and drop everyone off in one run, now it can take hours to get a full crew out where they need to be.

Lots of behind the scenes stuff, but hopefully it sheds some light on the snowmaking challenges so far this season with regards to average temperatures and how a warm month of this magnitude can affect it.

PF- Thanks for the great synopsis/insight into how this works. Makes it easy for "Joe Average" to understand the dynamics in play. We have a camp near Whiteface (on the north side, actually) They appear to be struggling to pull off a meaningful season by my viewpoint. Now I understand why....feel sorry for them in this situation. 

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, bwt3650 said:

Jay didn’t get your memo on the more energy efficient guns today.  Really great stuff.  Awesome learning the ins and outs of a ski resort.  If I could do it all over, would have found a job at a resort or maybe pick up something part time in retirement.  I’m guessing the temps lower temps at jay have helped keep them blasting over some of the other resorts.  Might also be that in some years, there wasn’t such a need with more natural.  Also maybe a good year to market the capability of the system and ability to keep drawing visitors with the thought once we return to a post covid world soon, the potential buyers for the resort will return.  Apparently, the sale was pretty close before covid. 

I feel like we've blown a good amount of snow at Stowe too given what's going on.  System has been maxed out a lot on water and set the resort record for number of guns running at any one time earlier in the year.  And regarding the land frame guns there, we do have a bunch of those still that get utilized but the definite shift has been towards fixed equipment (tower guns).  Those land frames are good guns for warmer temps, just a pain to haul around and set up/break down everywhere.  

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, rcostell said:

PF- Thanks for the great synopsis/insight into how this works. Makes it easy for "Joe Average" to understand the dynamics in play. We have a camp near Whiteface (on the north side, actually) They appear to be struggling to pull off a meaningful season by my viewpoint. Now I understand why....feel sorry for them in this situation. 

It's been real tough and I still think it's definitely the temperatures on the whole.  I mean if we are running +5 to +8 over normal December temperatures in the mountains, that difference between averaging 20F (perfect for round-the-clock snowmaking) and averaging 27F (just above that snowmaking threshold) is IMO what is making it seem like ski areas aren't making as much snow as they can.  It's been cold enough for some snow preservation and for natural snow and for comfortable winter recreation... but we should be seeing sustained mountain temperatures in the teens at this point. 

The temperatures have just been awful for snowmaking on the whole, despite being just cold enough for snow.

[powderfreak]

Here's a great example regarding the snowmaking.

This is the last few days of Mount Mansfield temperatures.  This the summit and usually the coldest spot on average.  See how it just rots for days at 20-30F?  It's been doing this all December for the most part in the means.  Heck it's even just above freezing now this afternoon.

Now imagine that you shut it down at 26F-27F and in order to fire up the snowmaking system you want to have a good 8-12 hour run time to make it worth the effort.

And these temperatures were cold enough to deliver a decent snowstorm but yet was generally unfavorable for significant snowmaking.  Production is very minimal on the whole for the past three days with this temperature graph.  The guns have been running except for this afternoon but you aren't getting much return for it and therefore terrain expansion is quite slow.

Hopefully this stuff makes sense but it really is the temperature patterns have been unfavorable in the means.  This summit station should be seeing highs in the teens at this point... not minimums in the upper teens.  We should see several days a week with temperatures single digits up top too.

[rcostell]

3 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

It's been real tough and I still think it's definitely the temperatures on the whole.  I mean if we are running +5 to +8 over normal December temperatures in the mountains, that difference between averaging 20F (perfect for round-the-clock snowmaking) and averaging 27F (just above that snowmaking threshold) is IMO what is making it seem like ski areas aren't making as much snow as they can.  It's been cold enough for some snow preservation and for natural snow and for comfortable winter recreation... but we should be seeing sustained mountain temperatures in the teens at this point. 

The temperatures have just been awful for snowmaking on the whole, despite being just cold enough for snow.

Agree-no sustained cold. Ausable River still largely open and people falling through the ice on Mirror Lake in Lake Placid.  6 inches of fresh on Friday night/Saturday morning (we're at 1850') helps..but still a warm storm with no real cold in the offing. Sorry for "not in New England"/Dacks reporting.. 

[Angus]

If memory serves me right, Peaks was using Wildcat as their laboratory for snowmaking. They have a ton of those HDK tower guns up and down their trails. Wildcat has a recent history of pipe breaking/pumps malfunctioning due to the ownership prior to Peaks deferring maintenance. The other thing about Wildcat is the terrain is terribly rocky. I was admiring them yesterday while riding the lifts. You need a lot of natural snow to get many of the trails open - one of the reasons why Wildcat has the reputation for such a liberal trail opening/closure policy. I've skied there on many spring days where you literally jump from patch to patch of snow. The orientation of the mountain and prevailing winds also scour snow from many of the trails. @powderfreak  I've read the way the electrical power contracts are written for these ski areas - to run lifts and power snowmaking - are interesting from perspective of the marginal price of power is very low due to a # of considerations, i.e. power plant utilization during winter months, et cetera.

[bch2014]

Was able to get a reservation at Hunter for Sunday (1/10) after refreshing the page about 20 times today. Quite the robust business they must be doing to already be booked by Monday for a Sunday (I figure Saturday's are usually the busier day).

[Angus]

3 hours ago, mreaves said:

It is a non-profit community ski hill.  I actually tried to get the golf course I'm a member of to go that route and tried reaching out to them but never heard back.  It's a good story though.  I've gone to snowmobile races there.

https://www.whaleback.com/whalebackmountainboard

 

[PhineasC]

Cannon was nice today. A really impressive amount of terrain open given all the factors discussed in this thread. I can't comment on how the crowds have been this season as we almost exclusively ski midweek. We had parts of the mountain mostly to ourselves today.

[powderfreak]

Last run at Stowe today.  Punched out of the inversion, warm breeze up here in the sunshine.  Colder and damp once into the cloud and dark below it.

[Skivt2]

6 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah so the old land frame snow guns (those jet engine sounding tripods) that used to get dragged around all over the place at ski areas and set-up to blast you at about head height can make snow at high temperatures pretty decently.  That equipment is very good at high temperatures and high moisture but it's largely not used anymore except by like Killington early season up high.

Really the sweet spot for snowmaking starts at a wet bulb of 25F and lower.  You usually fire up at like 26/27 degrees and falling to come into it... on the upside you usually start shutting down at those temps on the rise and aim for full shut down by 28F.  The production curve starts to bend sharply at that 26F type level on a lot of the energy efficient equipment.  Like you can make snow at 29F but it really is a waste of time per acre foot of production.  You are spending a lot of money to put down like an inch in 12 hours when say at 26F you can do that inch in an hour (not exactly but you get the idea of a sharp curve).

The actual prime snowmaking temperature is actually 14 degrees per HKD company's tests... they found production actually decreases due to evaporation and losing water to the air or the parcels aren't heavy enough to fall to the ground.  So like arctic air gives that large snowmaking clouds that float around in the air and it's just wasted water to be honest, ha.

Snowmaking is fascinating to me.  

The funny thing is that at Pico the old land frame guns are what is used almost all the time.  There are a few new tower guns on mid and lower Pike and on 49r but that’s it.  And really most years outpost, the little Pico triple and the Knomes knoll.triple do not see any snowmaking other than B slope which is essentially a private race hill for the Pico ski club.  Pico struggles with no natural snow as that is its main snow supply.  That said we were happy to see upper pike get some love today.  On the other hand Killington was phenomenal sunday.  They are absolutely hitting it out of the park.  We enjoyed skiiing Superstar under the guns and trust that the 30 feet it needs to stay open into May/June will still get blown.  Bump season should be excellent this year with no water injected World Cup ice underneath.  One factor I have not heard mentioned is the labor shortage at the ski areas.  There do not seem to be any college students on H1B’s from Peru or Brazil etc this year.  And while there is a travel exemption for ski resort employees I think there are a lot of folks who are part timers working for passes that opted out.  Meanwhile lessens are only private and the full time instructors are pulling parking lot reservation scanning duties and mask patrol duties at the lifts.  It’s a strange year but everyone is mostly doing their part to protect others and stay safe because we know our season is on the line otherwise. One thing that is super cool is that Vermont is vaccinating it’s ski patrollers as part of the 1a priority.  Glad to see them get remembered.

[Skivt2]

Oh and I should have mentioned that last nights 4+ inches at elevation was light soft fluffy powder that together with what fell a few days ago has opened the natural trails back up very nicely.

[HoarfrostHubb]

A guy I know who works snowmaking at Wachusett started up his own snow gun business (Snow Realms).  He has sold some to WaWa and they do well.   There were some huge whales there the other night.   They have been blasting as often as temps allow. 

[HoarfrostHubb]

My school group starts this week. Should be interesting to see how that goes.  Usually we ride a bus to the hill and I hang out in the lodge in case problems arise.  Due to Covid I’m not doing any of that this season. Just getting cheap passes into the hands of kids and their parents.  No stipend for it this year. I couldn’t take the money if I wasn’t going to be there    

[snowgeek]

Don't forget tele is just a type of turn, not a rule.  I haven't put the free-heelers on in a few years but I always used to switch off between tele turns and parallel turns depending on how things felt on a particular trail. 

Yes, thanks! It’s great how you can always parallel turn anytime with the new equipment!


.

[bch2014]

Sounds like a Covid outbreak at Hunter, closing the resort today. 

[PowderBeard]

39 minutes ago, bch2014 said:

Sounds like a Covid outbreak at Hunter, closing the resort today. 

Yea a couple rumors floating around, all seem to do with employees/patrol. Whatever the cause tweeting your closed an hour after scheduled opening time is some solid communication. 

[PhineasC]

Cannon has been nice this week. One minor gripe, there are small pebbles mixed in with the snow in a bunch of spots in the middle of trails and by the lifts. There is plenty of base, just small rocks at the surface. I assume the groomers picked them up. Not a big deal but kinda sloppy. I can’t recall seeing that before, recently at least. Not going to turn into a Karen at the customer service desk over it or anything, conditions have been good otherwise. LOL

[powderfreak]

Sweet day out there.  Packed powder. chalky bumps with bluebird overhead and a Notch filled with clouds from the trapped low level moisture.

 

[powderfreak]

Final day of Inversion Week at Stowe.

[MarkO]

Welp, looks like I won't be doing any skiing for another week or two. At least none that doesn't involve hiking. I actually got it (Covid) from someone I skied with last Saturday. Not from the skiing itself, but from driving up in the same car and having breakfast and lunch together. So even though we followed all the guidelines, it's still possible. Don't let your guard down.

[snowgeek]

Welp, looks like I won't be doing any skiing for another week or two. At least none that doesn't involve hiking. I actually got it (Covid) from someone I skied with last Saturday. Not from the skiing itself, but from driving up in the same car and having breakfast and lunch together. So even though we followed all the guidelines, it's still possible. Don't let your guard down.

Oh dang! Sorry to hear that! Get well soon!!! Any symptoms?


.

[alex]

On 1/7/2021 at 5:18 PM, PhineasC said:

Cannon has been nice this week. One minor gripe, there are small pebbles mixed in with the snow in a bunch of spots in the middle of trails and by the lifts. There is plenty of base, just small rocks at the surface. I assume the groomers picked them up. Not a big deal but kinda sloppy. I can’t recall seeing that before, recently at least. Not going to turn into a Karen at the customer service desk over it or anything, conditions have been good otherwise. LOL

I've had some serious gripes with Cannon ski Ops before. Never in person of course, but I remember one time when it was 40 degrees at closing with a sharp cold front coming in, and they started grooming right away before the pack had a chance to freeze. They might as well have used a Zamboni, the next day was unskiable. The groomers at Bretton Woods seem much more careful. 

[MarkO]

Initially it was the cough. Wasn't exactly dry. Got aches about 4 days after exposure, but since then it's been mainly the cough. The two others that skied with me are mild as well, but a neighbor is in ICU. Think of others and do your diligence. The season could be shut down.