The 2020-2021 Ski season thread

[mreaves]

4 hours ago, Skivt2 said:

Yes.  Bottom line is people in VT actually hate non-Vermonters. It does not matter if they grew up somewhere else.  Once they have the magic green plate they are better than everyone else.  This has brought that hate into the open.  It won’t matter what the quarantine rules are. Out of staters simply are not welcome.

People in VT do not hate out of staters. Are some people jerks? Yes and you seem to know more than your share.  I’m sorry you’ve had a bad experience but that’s your experience and not the entire story. 

[powderfreak]

6 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I never detected a single hint of bad vibes or an attitude from anyone in New Hampshire, even when I was there with MD plates when lockdowns across the country were still in full swing. Even being in an area that does not get a lot of long-term tourists and mostly seems like locals (Randolph/Gorham/Berlin), it has been fine. To be honest, it seems like the locals have been bending over backwards to be nice because they all want me to spend money on their services and at their shops given the crushed economy up there. Maybe it is different in VT. There is definitely a different feel between the two states; even my tone deaf self can pick it up. But this all feels overwrought to me. If VT guys are like Powderfreak and Phish it seems like a really chill place. LOL

What you described is always what I’ve noticed.  I had NY plates even while working for Stowe marketing... I never had an issue.  When we got married, my wife bought a vehicle off my parents and were lazy about registering it so she had NY plates for a good year. 

Your experience Phin is what I’ve seen in NNE.  We try to be good.  I was willing to drive to Jay Peak to take photos of a property for you, someone I’ve never met.    Maybe Randolph has a closed FB page where all the locals can bitch about you?  

From what I’ve gathered most of the issue seems to stem from Facebook not actual in-person interactions.  I text my buddy who MTBs at Killington and he said he has no idea, he was there two days ago and then got beers on a patio with NY tags.  He did say something interesting though “I wasn’t looking for it though, maybe if I was actively looking for hostility I could find a mean glare? Lol.”  

[PowderBeard]

1 hour ago, radarman said:

Pico has what looks like a powerline cut lookers right from the summit down the fall line.  I've always thought it looked appealing although seemed like a no no to try it.  Maybe if it were uphill only...

Anyone know what I am talking about?  

The old Poma line or the back side? Back side is flat. I don't know how people rode up that thing, so damn steep. The narrowness, old footings, and steel cable along with ice falls makes it one of the harder trails around. Typically survival skiing because getting a good flow would take a ton of snow and if you get much speed you'll be screwed. And I've hit it on 28" of fresh, still bare spots.

[PhineasC]

4 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

What you described is always what I’ve noticed.  I had NY plates even while working for Stowe marketing... I never had an issue.  When we got married, my wife bought a vehicle off my parents and were lazy about registering it so she had NY plates for a good year. 

Your experience Phin is what I’ve seen in NNE.  We try to be good.  I was willing to drive to Jay Peak to take photos of a property for you, someone I’ve never met.    Maybe Randolph has a closed FB page where all the locals can bitch about you?  

From what I’ve gathered most of the issue seems to stem from Facebook not actual in-person interactions.  I text my buddy who MTBs at Killington and he said he has no idea, he was there two days ago and then got beers on a patio with NY tags.  He did say something interesting though “I wasn’t looking for it though, maybe if I was actively looking for hostility I could find a mean glare? Lol.”  

Yeah, like I said it seems a bit overwrought to me. Facebook is a terrible place to look when trying to render judgements about anyone or anything. 

[Skivt2]

1 hour ago, J.Spin said:

As I was reading this, it seemed appropriate that you were frequently putting “friends” in quotes, because I’m not sure who these people are that you’re talking about.  Are we talking about born Vermonters, 7^th generation types, transplants from out of state to a resort area, 2^nd home owners, or something else?  Everyone’s definition of “friend” is different I guess, but my actual friends would already know every detail of everything you poured out so thoughtfully in that paragraph.  There would actually be no need to discuss any of it or even make it known to them – just from years of knowing me, they would already know my opinion on just about all of that and could easily assume that I was taking all those actions.  People that don’t already have a feel for all that stuff, or would turn a blind eye to the issue are probably more in the realm of “acquaintances” or maybe “neighbors”, but they’re definitely something else.  Yeah, it’s probably semantics, but the overall concept might be one of the confounding factors related to this issue.

I think I have still failed to communicate this properly.  I will try again.  Killington has a rather large community of people who generally attend the same large parties and all know each other.  LOTS of acquaintances and party buddies in that house party/tailgating scene.  There are parties even in off season with hundreds of the same people hanging out together.  They are locals, ski house people, and second home owners.  That dynamic of all of us having this “thing” in common was what made the place special.  The people who moved there as adults to live there full time and consider themselves “locals” damn well know that.  Yet a vocal minority of them are still bitching up a storm about “out of staters”.  I know who a bunch of these people are but I don’t know them well.  But people I do know well are on the same FB pages. In some cases folks with second homes have tried to express how upset they are by this hostility and how they thought they were part of the community.  They have even explained that they need to visit briefly to maintain their houses but will avoid contact.  The response is always the same.  We don’t want you here.  Out of staters are a problem. None of the people I know well ever get in the mix and back these people up.  None of them ever jump in and say “guys aren’t you being a little harsh”.  All I hear is crickets.  The few local friends I’ve talked to about this say, “They are not talking about you, everyone knows you belong here”.  But the issue is that when people like me hear that “out of staters” and second home owners are horrible and ruin everything, we are getting pissed at all the locals.  We are annoyed at the vocal ones but hurt by the silence of our friends.  Sadly our local friends don’t even realize how this is effecting us.  But knowing the general sense that the “out of stater” is so hated does not make driving around there comfortable.  Sure, maybe I get out of my car and a local friend sees me and is “so glad to see me”.  But when I’m driving or parked somewhere I’m just a damn out of stater.  So something to think about if you are in SNE thinking about spending some time up north skiing this winter.  The welcome mat is not out in SVT.

[Skivt2]

1 hour ago, radarman said:

Pico has what looks like a powerline cut lookers right from the summit down the fall line.  I've always thought it looked appealing although seemed like a no no to try it.  Maybe if it were uphill only...

Anyone know what I am talking about?  

My profile picture is looking down that chute when it was still untracked on a powder day.  I’m about 150 feet down and past the “pucker zone” in this shot.  It’s about 5 feet wide with a cable down through the top of it that can act like a rail.  It’s gotten much narrower in the past few years since it’s growing in.  It’s one of the steepest things I’ve ever skied and towards the top steepest part there is a boulder.  Like star or goat at their steepest.  The space between the boulder and the trees on either side is about 18 inches wide so pointing them is mandatory.  It’s about 6 feet of straight lining you skis to pass the boulder.  Getting your speed back under control at that steepness in a 5 foot wide chute with impenetrable trees on either side is the key to survival.

[powderfreak]

38 minutes ago, PowderBeard said:

The old Poma line or the back side? Back side is flat. I don't know how people rode up that thing, so damn steep. The narrowness, old footings, and steel cable along with ice falls makes it one of the harder trails around. Typically survival skiing because getting a good flow would take a ton of snow and if you get much speed you'll be screwed. And I've hit it on 28" of fresh, still bare spots.

What an eastern chute!  Looks damn steep to be an old surface lift.

[powderfreak]

18 minutes ago, Skivt2 said:

 Sure, maybe I get out of my car and a local friend sees me and is “so glad to see me”.  But when I’m driving or parked somewhere I’m just a damn out of stater.  So something to think about if you are in SNE thinking about spending some time up north skiing this winter.  The welcome mat is not out in SVT.

Jen, I would truly stay away from that toxic social media environment and just believe your friends when they say they are so glad to see you.  

I just feel so bad that the online Facebook stuff has gotten to you so much that even in person you have friends that say they are so glad to see you when you arrive...but you still feel you aren’t welcomed because of FB posts in a group.

Just concentrate on the real life interactions and push the rest out.  Don’t let the vocal minority internet bullies ruin your winter.

[tamarack]

1 hour ago, PowderBeard said:

The old Poma line or the back side? Back side is flat. I don't know how people rode up that thing, so damn steep. The narrowness, old footings, and steel cable along with ice falls makes it one of the harder trails around. Typically survival skiing because getting a good flow would take a ton of snow and if you get much speed you'll be screwed. And I've hit it on 28" of fresh, still bare spots.

That's almost too narrow for a kick turn.  I thought that Scotch Mist (Glen Ellen's name for the upper lift line at Sugarbush North) was a pucker-power trail, but it's about twice as wide.  And though it's steep, it may not be as vertical as that chute, though it has a number of very hard vertical obstacles down the middle.  Back when Glen Ellen was a thing I got to where I could ski some black diamonds, but would never set a ski on that one.

[PowderBeard]

52 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

What an eastern chute!  Looks damn steep to be an old surface lift.

Yea I could not imagine it. I only ski it on weekdays after a decent storm, it gets scrapped down fast (see pic).  The pucker section is almost the length of Upper Giant Killer. In the  above pic is my wife, it was her 3rd year skiing I believe the first time she did it. When asking about a new trail she always asks if it is more difficult than the Poma Line. 

 

The next lift service/unmarked thing I would love to ski are the Survey Lines at Smuggs. I've only seen one video and it looks similar but more intimidating. 

[Skivt2]

37 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Jen, I would truly stay away from that toxic social media environment and just believe your friends when they say they are so glad to see you.  

I just feel so bad that the online Facebook stuff has gotten to you so much that even in person you have friends that say they are so glad to see you when you arrive...but you still feel you aren’t welcomed because of FB posts in a group.

Just concentrate on the real life interactions and push the rest out.  Don’t let the vocal minority internet bullies ruin your winter.

I think I’ve failed to communicate this properly.  I do believe friends are glad to see me.. The issue is not all about me.  It’s a systemic problem in Southern VT.  It’s an ugly truth that this issue exists.  And sure, you can go to K and have fun and not even perceive that there is an issue.  But it’s there.  And it’s ugly.  I think people coming to VT should at least be aware. 

[HoarfrostHubb]

22 minutes ago, Skivt2 said:

I think I’ve failed to communicate this properly.  I do believe friends are glad to see me.. The issue is not all about me.  It’s a systemic problem in Southern VT.  It’s an ugly truth that this issue exists.  And sure, you can go to K and have fun and not even perceive that there is an issue.  But it’s there.  And it’s ugly.  I think people coming to VT should at least be aware. 

My advice would be to drop out of that particular FB group and pretend it doesn’t exist.  If no one is saying anything untowardly to your face / in person and you don’t see it on social then does it really exist?

[ORH_wxman]

5 hours ago, Skivt2 said:

Sarcasm does not translate well in written words.  I actually said it that way to prove my point.  But I’m being serious when I say that I don’t see people pushing back on the haters.  That is a problem.  In no way do I want to diminish the struggles of any minority population when I say this, but like racism, blaming everything bad that happens in VT on “Out of staters” is a form of discrimination.  And those that do not openly push back on it are complicit. This forum is not a place where I have typically seen the issue.  And it makes sense since there are so few VT’rs or even NNE people on this forum.  Plus most VT’rs on this forum are in N.VT vs S.VT where I think this sentiment is significantly worse.  On the other hand, as we begin to discuss next season, particularly with so many from SNE on this forum, I think it is important for those from SNE to understand the atmosphere they may encounter this winter in VT, particular southern VT.   Worrying about being yelled at when going to the store to “go home” or having your car damaged by a tourist hater makes vacation a tad stressful I would think. Honestly by what you guys are saying maybe Stowe or Jay would be a better place for a vacation if you are from NY/CT/NJ/MA and are someone who only skis a few weekends or holidays every year.  It may be a tad safer than S. VT

If a local VTer told me to go home if I had a place there, I’d tell them to go f*** themselves and not think twice about it. Lol. 

[powderfreak]

21 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

If a local VTer told me to go home if I had a place there, I’d tell them to go f*** themselves and not think twice about it. Lol. 

Yeah if a person for that matter, don’t care where they are from or going said anything to me I’d flip ‘em a bird and keep moving... but it sounds like it’s not happening in person, she says everyone seems nice in person but they are saying stuff online about out-of-staters.  I just think if you don’t read that and go by your in-person experiences, you wouldn’t know?

Like reading the most vile stuff on the internet at 4Chan and then saying all white males are complete assh*les despite them being really nice in person.  

I don’t know, I just hope we don’t have to have this convo all winter about postings on a Killington group.

[Skivt2]

29 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

If a local VTer told me to go home if I had a place there, I’d tell them to go f*** themselves and not think twice about it. Lol. 
 

I never engaged in the Facebook discussions as there is no point in getting into an argument like that. I was just lurking for local news which is also shared there.  But I did see a lot of second homeowners and part time residents try to argue on the more public locals site.  Threats of physical violence were made.  No idea if they were carried out though.

Because we can skin out our back door and had a stockpile of what we needed in March and early April we never got confronted face to face fortunately but knew several others who were.m

I don’t know what it will be like next winter but I thought it was somewhat of a public service to bring this up since it could get ugly again if cases start to rise in VT as tourist season begins.  If it comes to light that the clusters are due to tourism I would bet money that it will get ugly for folks with out of state plates.  You are welcome not to believe me and think I am being alarmist.  I hope I am wrong.  But I have an inside seat to what has been said since March and what is still being said.  Take from it what you will.

[PhineasC]

14 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah if a person for that matter, don’t care where they are from or going said anything to me I’d flip ‘em a bird and keep moving... but it sounds like it’s not happening in person, she says everyone seems nice in person but they are saying stuff online about out-of-staters.  I just think if you don’t read that and go by your in-person experiences, you wouldn’t know?

Like reading the most vile stuff on the internet at 4Chan and then saying all white males are complete assh*les despite them being really nice in person.  

I don’t know, I just hope we don’t have to have this convo all winter about postings on a Killington group.

I have a private PM thread with ORH where we talk about how mean you VT posters are. Bunch of poopyheads, the lot of you!

[powderfreak]

8 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I have a private PM thread with ORH where we talk about how mean you VT posters are. Bunch of poopyheads, the lot of you!

My head kinda hurts from this afternoon trying to process the whole thing, ha.  But it’s funny my buddy at Killington had the same reaction when I asked him as ORH did... “I wasn’t looking for it but if someone came up to me to give me crap for NY plates he might just get punched and we move on.  Unfortunately they all seem pretty nice though I wasn’t looking for hostility.” 

[HoarfrostHubb]

I’m not doubting what SkiVT read on that group. But if no one is actually doing anything and are just grousing about it in a closed group I would just ignore it.  
 

I’ve started to grow a thicker skin in large part due to social media.  Keyboard heroes talk a big game online but hide when they see you in person. 

[ORH_wxman]

4 minutes ago, HoarfrostHubb said:

I’m not doubting what SkiVT read on that group. But if no one is actually doing anything and are just grousing about it in a closed group I would just ignore it.  
 

I’ve started to grow a thicker skin in large part due to social media.  Keyboard heroes talk a big game online but hide when they see you in person. 

A lot of member social media groups are filled with chickenshits who either:

1. Want to stir up trouble for fun

2. Actually believe the crap they are typing but are too scared to say it without the “safety” of groupthink 

3. Think their opinion is way more important than it actually is

4. Or all of the above. 

 

Agreed on the toxicity. No use wasting time in an environment like that. 

[ORH_wxman]

45 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I have a private PM thread with ORH where we talk about how mean you VT posters are. Bunch of poopyheads, the lot of you!

You weren’t supposed to tell them about our anti-VT group PM. 

[Skivt2]

[bwt3650]

Moving on from the deep complexities of mean people, how about some lighter discussion...favorite run of last season? As soon as I saw this thread open, I immediately thought of that late feb dumping at Stowe/jay and how a run down starr was probably top five in my life...disappointing season; but it had its moments!

[HoarfrostHubb]

8 minutes ago, bwt3650 said:

Moving on from the deep complexities of mean people, how about some lighter discussion...favorite run of last season? As soon as I saw this thread open, I immediately thought of that late feb dumping at Stowe/jay and how a run down starr was probably top five in my life...disappointing season; but it had its moments!

Not a big run or anything exciting but getting first turns on Conifer at Wachusett with my wife in January on a Saturday morning.   

[radarman]

25 minutes ago, bwt3650 said:

Moving on from the deep complexities of mean people, how about some lighter discussion...favorite run of last season? As soon as I saw this thread open, I immediately thought of that late feb dumping at Stowe/jay and how a run down starr was probably top five in my life...disappointing season; but it had its moments!

For me had to be 12/1 @ the Beast after part 1 of the early Dec storm.  14"+ dense and just about everything in play.  Bonus points for opening day, and for having huge snowmaking whales adding to the terrain.  

Silver goes to 2/13 @ Magic which started off with like 3" new on some crust but skied in great and before lunch we were ripping Magician, Goniff, and the Black Line at high speeds.

Bronze to 2/7 @ Sugarbush.... 8" new and mid mountain skiing much better than upper mountain.  Got acquainted with mogul trails off the Valley house chair and had a blast.

[powderfreak]

A pow shot for some stoke... this was a "surprise 14 inches" that fell overnight from some squalls and then ended right before opening bell with blue skies coming out.

I still think the N.Greens are one of the few places you can get a surprise 14" in 12 hours followed by bluebird.  I remember this morning well as I was off, Andre was doing the snow report (guy in the blue jacket)... I get a text at 5am from him that's like "Bro.  Wake up.  Now.  Grooming says they've got 14" of new snow since 4pm."  I remember looking outside, seeing like an inch or two on my car and being like "Stop sh*tting with me dude."  "No, really, they say they have 14 inches on upper mountain.  They said it was snowing like 4 inches an hour around 3am." 

I was out of bed so fast... made it to the office to grab my gear and head up with Andre right after Patrol gave the ok on line-check.

Just pure cotton candy that fell in windless squalls and stacked up big.  Probably 30-40:1 ratio blower on this morning.

 

[powderfreak]

And to show how localized that above "storm" was... here's the CoCoRaHS map from that morning on the mountain.  All the lower elevations got a 1-3" fluffer but talk about localized snowfall... those photos show that it dumped 12+ of fluff overnight.

I've got the High Road snow plot photo somewhere too, gotta find that, maybe external hard drive.  It's hard to comprehend how localized it can be.  Even now if I wasn't looking at the photos and the camera file data, I would think this was the wrong morning.

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, bwt3650 said:

Moving on from the deep complexities of mean people, how about some lighter discussion...favorite run of last season? As soon as I saw this thread open, I immediately thought of that late feb dumping at Stowe/jay and how a run down starr was probably top five in my life...disappointing season; but it had its moments!

This was another one of those "fluke" systems that over-performed in a big way.  It was lake effect coming all the way from Lake Ontario mixed with the orographic lift... something that to forecast was a nightmare.  I remember thinking that a lake band amid a general lighter upslope snowfall might give someone a 12" total amid a larger 3-8" upslope shield.

Didn't think 40" storm total... but this storm started as a heavy wet paste elevation event, with like a foot of paste before 30" of blower.

The real weather weenie observation is noticing the wind shift throughout the cycle, shown by what side of the pole the snow stacked up against.

[bwt3650]

35 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

This was another one of those "fluke" systems that over-performed in a big way.  It was lake effect coming all the way from Lake Ontario mixed with the orographic lift... something that to forecast was a nightmare.  I remember thinking that a lake band amid a general lighter upslope snowfall might give someone a 12" total amid a larger 3-8" upslope shield.

Didn't think 40" storm total... but this storm started as a heavy wet paste elevation event, with like a foot of paste before 30" of blower.

The real weather weenie observation is noticing the wind shift throughout the cycle, shown by what side of the pole the snow stacked up against.

That’s the one..crazy windy at first chair and I think the only thing running was the triple..I went by the four runner at about 11 and the chairs were off and thought there was no way it was opening..came out after lunch and couldn’t believe it was running.  Virtually untouched for a few runs and just sick skiing.  
 

2nd place was right around Valentine’s Day at jay..the glades off the freezer were deep as hell.

[Skivt2]

The always beautiful sunset over the Champlain valley from the top of Pico just after last chair In late December....

[sheahunter]

Great pictures.  That 14" blower PF!

Just also have to say as a NYer have not had any bad vibes in VT.