The 2020-2021 Ski season thread

[amarshall]

Crazy the difference in the COVID stuff between the NH and Maine resorts. Very little coordination at the govt level, clearly. 

Loaf is a completely different world than Sunday river in COVID attitudes like everything else. Way more relaxed at the loaf. People respectful with masks but not crazy.


.

[powderfreak]

23 hours ago, PhineasC said:

Crazy the difference in the COVID stuff between the NH and Maine resorts. Very little coordination at the govt level, clearly. 

I read almost all our guest surveys and this year there’s a COVID question added for comments.  It seems like the comments mirror American division on the topic.  One group loves the COVID safety procedures or thinks more should be done.  The other group thinks it’s crap and way overboard.

In general I’d assume the larger ski companies will fall on the more intense side of the COVID stuff.  And it may not be state by state per se.  I bet Boyne Resorts (owners of Sugarloaf and Sunday River among others) implemented very similar COVID policies at all their resorts regardless of state.  As did Vail Resorts, Alterra and POWDR.  Now whether the leadership actually cascades that down to the staff at the same “tone” at each resort is a different thing. 

 

[PhineasC]

40 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

I read almost all our guest surveys and this year there’s a COVID question added for comments.  It seems like the comments mirror American division on the topic.  One group loves the COVID safety procedures or thinks more should be done.  The other group thinks it’s crap and way overboard.

In general I’d assume the larger ski companies will fall on the more intense side of the COVID stuff.  And it may not be state by state per se.  I bet Boyne Resorts (owners of Sugarloaf and Sunday River among others) implemented very similar COVID policies at all their resorts regardless of state.  As did Vail Resorts, Alterra and POWDR.  Now whether the leadership actually cascades that down to the staff at the same “tone” at each resort is a different thing. 

 

This is why as a business owner I say COVID prevention is a no-win situation. No matter what I do 50% of my employees will be pissed. I can’t imagine how maddening it is for customer facing businesses such as ski resorts. 

[Angus]

The Carrabassett Valley/Kingfield area was very, very concerned about Covid outbreak last Spring. There are minimal medical facilities in the area - Farmington and Skowhegan are the closest hospitals and neither of them are not equipped to treat high acuity patients. I have worn a mask all winter - usually double masked and it has not bothered me one bit. My observation based upon on visits to Crotched, Burke, Ragged, Sunapee, Wildcat, Stowe, Okemo, Jack Frost, & Bretton Woods. My theory is the more family oriented the place is, the better mask wearing compliance has been. Ragged was by far the best with staff monitoring/reminding proactively. Wildcat the worse with Jack Frost not far behind - which contradicts my family theory.

[PhineasC]

1 hour ago, Angus said:

The Carrabassett Valley/Kingfield area was very, very concerned about Covid outbreak last Spring. There are minimal medical facilities in the area - Farmington and Skowhegan are the closest hospitals and neither of them are not equipped to treat high acuity patients. I have worn a mask all winter - usually double masked and it has not bothered me one bit. My observation based upon on visits to Crotched, Burke, Ragged, Sunapee, Wildcat, Stowe, Okemo, Jack Frost, & Bretton Woods. My theory is the more family oriented the place is, the better mask wearing compliance has been. Ragged was by far the best with staff monitoring/reminding proactively. Wildcat the worse with Jack Frost not far behind - which contradicts my family theory.

BW has been very lax about COVID, IMO. So that somewhat busts the theory a bit.

Sunday River was the only place we had an issue. My wife was actually busted for a "non-compliant mask" because it was too loose apparently. So they made her wear one of those throwaway ones that is basically a paper towel with strings on the ends... very effective I'm sure. Especially when they then jam everyone into a small space to wait for that silly "chondola" mess. You also couldn't order food at Sunday River inside. Had to stand outside and then take it in. Most of this stuff is clearly just about liability for the resort and not based on any sort of "science" to keep people safe. I noticed Maine is really into the hygiene theater stuff everywhere we went. I still saw them scurrying around spraying bleach on things and setting onerously short time limits for everything. Seems kinda silly at this point, but if that's what the gubmint says they have to do they have no choice.

This may not matter to a swinging bachelor skiing alone. The couple days I skied alone this season I didn't even notice the restrictions at all. It gets a lot harder with 4 young kids, however.

BW was much more relaxed about it. Sometimes my 4 year old forgot to have her mask up all the way getting on the lift and they didn't say a word. You could also sit in the lodge and get snacks/drinks as normal. Perhaps they are being "reckless," I dunno. I am glad I am in NH.

[HIPPYVALLEY]

5 hours ago, amarshall said:

Loaf is a completely different world than Sunday river in COVID attitudes like everything else. Way more relaxed at the loaf. People respectful with masks but not crazy.


.

I remember riding the Skyline lift with a buddy back around 2000 or 2001 and asking the guy next to us if he minded if we blew a joint and he said "seeing as how I'm the county Sheriff I'm going to say yes".  He scowled at us, there was a few seconds of silence and then we all started chatting again.  Got off the lift and he said "enjoy your day gentlemen".  

Some of my best ski memories are at that mountain.

[powderfreak]

13 hours ago, PhineasC said:

BW has been very lax about COVID, IMO. So that somewhat busts the theory a bit.

Sunday River was the only place we had an issue. My wife was actually busted for a "non-compliant mask" because it was too loose apparently. So they made her wear one of those throwaway ones that is basically a paper towel with strings on the ends... very effective I'm sure. Especially when they then jam everyone into a small space to wait for that silly "chondola" mess. You also couldn't order food at Sunday River inside. Had to stand outside and then take it in. Most of this stuff is clearly just about liability for the resort and not based on any sort of "science" to keep people safe. I noticed Maine is really into the hygiene theater stuff everywhere we went. I still saw them scurrying around spraying bleach on things and setting onerously short time limits for everything. Seems kinda silly at this point, but if that's what the gubmint says they have to do they have no choice.

This may not matter to a swinging bachelor skiing alone. The couple days I skied alone this season I didn't even notice the restrictions at all. It gets a lot harder with 4 young kids, however.

BW was much more relaxed about it. Sometimes my 4 year old forgot to have her mask up all the way getting on the lift and they didn't say a word. You could also sit in the lodge and get snacks/drinks as normal. Perhaps they are being "reckless," I dunno. I am glad I am in NH.

Yeah you wouldn’t like it here would be my guess. No one is messing around when the state gov’t has swung audits through. We had so many complaints the first half of the season about non-compliance with mask wearing (folks will call the state and complain that you Phin aren’t covering your nose at all times, ha) that it had to be cracked down on hard.

I think since Presidents Week is when there started being more push back the other direction but the first half of winter was entirely people thankful for the heavy hand of mask reminders and feeling safe was a big deal.

Many times the skiing public will just take it into their own hand and you’ll have 20 people telling some dude to put his mask on correctly.

For the ski areas it was necessary just to operate to be heavy handed.  They didn’t want to have a large COVID outbreak traced to them and they didn’t want to be forced to cease operations... so from a business continuity standpoint it made sense to lean hard towards one side.  I think it’s gone about as well as could be expected under the given circumstances.  From what I’ve heard all the VT areas are very similar in their practices.

I can also clearly say that mask wearing and hygiene does work really well.  This was by far the healthiest season for many departments... not so much as a case of the sniffles going around.  I’ve never gone through a whole winter without getting a solid week long sickness... and those stories are everywhere.  Folks now realizing they didn’t even have a single cold this winter.  Hygiene and masks isn’t just theater, it does seem to work.  Never had whole departments leveled with a stomach bug or fevers, head colds, etc like past winters. Sterilized world.

[PhineasC]

5 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah you wouldn’t like it here would be my guess. No one is messing around when the state gov’t has swung audits through. We had so many complaints the first half of the season about non-compliance with mask wearing (folks will call the state and complain that you Phin aren’t covering your nose at all times, ha) that it had to be cracked down on hard.

I think since Presidents Week is when there started being more push back the other direction but the first half of winter was entirely people thankful for the heavy hand of mask reminders and feeling safe was a big deal.

Many times the skiing public will just take it into their own hand and you’ll have 20 people telling some dude to put his mask on correctly.

For the ski areas it was necessary just to operate to be heavy handed.  They didn’t want to have a large COVID outbreak traced to them and they didn’t want to be forced to cease operations... so from a business continuity standpoint it made sense to lean hard towards one side.  I think it’s gone about as well as could be expected under the given circumstances.  From what I’ve heard all the VT areas are very similar in their practices.

I can also clearly say that mask wearing and hygiene does work really well.  This was by far the healthiest season for many departments... not so much as a case of the sniffles going around.  I’ve never gone through a whole winter without getting a solid week long sickness... and those stories are everywhere.  Folks now realizing they didn’t even have a single cold this winter.  Hygiene and masks isn’t just theater, it does seem to work.  Never had whole departments leveled with a stomach bug or fevers, head colds, etc like past winters. Sterilized world.

I really think NH hit the right middle ground. It isn’t like the NH resorts had massive outbreaks while being a little more rational and loose with the restrictions. They did fine. This is all in hindsight of course, and every state did what they thought was best at the time. 

I would pump the brakes on the arguments that masks and social distancing prevented colds and the flu. Maybe they did (or maybe there were other factors — will require study by the experts) but that sets a precedent that means we may never get more “normal” than we are right now... doesn’t matter to me because I can jet around at will and pay extra to get reliable VIP access to places with capacity restrictions. I am guessing ski places such as Stowe are thinking the same thing, which will hurt the average Joe a lot more than me. One of those second-order effects we have been talking about. I am concerned about this argument getting legs because it will not end well, IMO. 

[powderfreak]

40 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I really think NH hit the right middle ground. It isn’t like the NH resorts had massive outbreaks while being a little more rational and loose with the restrictions. They did fine. This is all in hindsight of course, and every state did what they thought was best at the time. 

I would pump the brakes on the arguments that masks and social distancing prevented colds and the flu. Maybe they did (or maybe there were other factors — will require study by the experts) but that sets a precedent that means we may never get more “normal” than we are right now... doesn’t matter to me because I can jet around at will and pay extra to get reliable VIP access to places with capacity restrictions. I am guessing ski places such as Stowe are thinking the same thing, which will hurt the average Joe a lot more than me. One of those second-order effects we have been talking about. I am concerned about this argument getting legs because it will not end well, IMO. 

Well I think you are discussing two different things.  It's not an argument one way or another, it's just a statement.  I don't think anybody really needs a study to tell that excessive hygiene, masks, bathing in hand sanitizer, and limiting large indoor gatherings with other people leads to less illness transfer.  I mean if you want to wait for a study to tell you that staying in your own little circle and avoiding touching things that other people have touched (and if you do immediately hand sanitize after), not touching your mouth or nose (due to the mask) with germy fingers and spray sanitizer everywhere all day long helps you avoid getting sick... I don't think that's earth shattering news to anyone.  Less touch points, less exposure.

You are immediately assuming though that it is the desired state we want to live in.  Getting sick is good for the body and building immunity.  It's just you hear from so many people that they never had a stomach bug, never had even a slight head cold, etc this entire winter.  It's really rare up here at a ski area to not have multiple sicknesses ripping through departments.  Ski areas are germ factories with people sneezing and wiping their noses with their hands (can't do that with a mask) and then touching everything.  It's definitely something people have been talking about up here.  But I don't think anyone has connected that statement to "that's how normal should be".

[bwt3650]

After all these years, we made the flu disappear....In all seriousness, I don't think there's an argument that increased hygiene helped, but I do think we should be careful with messing with nature and our bodies immune systems.  Not sure how true it is, but I remember the old tale that it wasn't a bad thing when your toddlers get exposed to all kinds of colds and stuff to build immunity...

and Stowe was fine with the mask stuff.  I'm was on board with the mask in the congested areas, lifts, lodges etc and everyone besides the "I'm going to prove a point people" were good about it...Whether I believe it is necessary or not,  just do it so it doesn't get shut down was my thinking...I think it's ridiculous to give someone a hard time about taking their mask down while ripping through the woods, tho....and the wearing the mask while  driving solo in your own car is a bit much, but whatever; it doesn't affect me.

[powderfreak]

8 minutes ago, bwt3650 said:

After all these years, we made the flu disappear....In all seriousness, I don't think there's an argument that increased hygiene helped, but I do think we should be careful with messing with nature and our bodies immune systems.  Not sure how true it is, but I remember the old tale that it wasn't a bad thing when your toddlers get exposed to all kinds of colds and stuff to build immunity...

and Stowe was fine with the mask stuff.  I'm was on board with the mask in the congested areas, lifts, lodges etc and everyone besides the "I'm going to prove a point people" were good about it...Whether I believe it is necessary or not,  just do it so it doesn't get shut down was my thinking...I think it's ridiculous to give someone a hard time about taking their mask down while ripping through the woods, tho....and the wearing the mask while  driving solo in your own car is a bit much, but whatever; it doesn't affect me.

Yeah I'm 100% in agreement.  I wasn't trying to make an argument that it's how it should be... just a pure observation that I think many people have noticed.  I mean I can't remember the last time I heard someone say they were sick with a stomach bug or threw up or whatever.  Definitely pre-COVID.  I honestly can't remember another winter when I didn't get sick at least once with something and that's a pretty common realization.

I completely agree too with the immunity stuff.  I mean if I went 5+ years without getting as much as a head cold, I'd be worried a headache might kill me.  The human race would be crushed in like a few generations if we took this many steps to round-the-clock disinfect everything possible, wear masks, never gathered with multiple other families and freely moved around.

I do think the lasting effect will be people will stay home more when they are sick with even the smallest thing.  Many employers were like hey you can come in to work if you aren't puking your guts out.  Sure you had a slight fever and feel crappy?  Take a Tylenol and see how it goes.  I think the lasting effect will be more people realizing they are sick and will stay home... and society will be more ok with it.  There definitely was a lot of pressure to go out into the world and carry on normal life even if you were sick.

And on the skiing stuff, for sure about the masks.  I think we'd get along, ha.  Mask down when skiing and out wandering around on the mountain, mask up in full approaching base area and lifts/parking lots/etc.  That was how most of us approached it... not wanting to get shut down, so you do what you need to do to enjoy the winter.

[mreaves]

I would have guessed that the snowmobiling community was a bit more “anti-mask” than most but I saw very good adherence in general nearly everywhere you would expect it.  Like you guys said though, what’s the purpose when you’re not physically close to anyone and outside?

As far as immune systems go, I agree as well. Exposure to stuff early is what builds immunity to all sorts of disease. I don’t think we want to mess with that all that much. 

[PhineasC]

2 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Well I think you are discussing two different things.  It's not an argument one way or another, it's just a statement.  I don't think anybody really needs a study to tell that excessive hygiene, masks, bathing in hand sanitizer, and limiting large indoor gatherings with other people leads to less illness transfer.  I mean if you want to wait for a study to tell you that staying in your own little circle and avoiding touching things that other people have touched (and if you do immediately hand sanitize after), not touching your mouth or nose (due to the mask) with germy fingers and spray sanitizer everywhere all day long helps you avoid getting sick... I don't think that's earth shattering news to anyone.  Less touch points, less exposure.

You are immediately assuming though that it is the desired state we want to live in.  Getting sick is good for the body and building immunity.  It's just you hear from so many people that they never had a stomach bug, never had even a slight head cold, etc this entire winter.  It's really rare up here at a ski area to not have multiple sicknesses ripping through departments.  Ski areas are germ factories with people sneezing and wiping their noses with their hands (can't do that with a mask) and then touching everything.  It's definitely something people have been talking about up here.  But I don't think anyone has connected that statement to "that's how normal should be".

I have noticed I have been less sick this winter. It is noticeable. Just a question of the “price” being paid for that. I have enough money to live a wonderful life separated from most people. But I try to think about how shitty that makes life for those who need to keep working every day and dealing with lockdowns and restrictions. The CEO of Pfizer doesn’t care about this. We are RPUs, Revenue Producing Units. 

[PhineasC]

I wear my mask at all times skiing. I win the safety competition.   

It’s a neck gaiter I always wear anyway so it doesn’t matter. 

[mreaves]

20 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I wear my mask at all times skiing. I win the safety competition.   

It’s a neck gaiter I always wear anyway so it doesn’t matter. 

Same with snowmobiling. I always wear a balaclava under my helmet so when that’s off, I pull it up over my nose and mouth if I’m close to other people. 

[PhineasC]

2 hours ago, bwt3650 said:

After all these years, we made the flu disappear....In all seriousness, I don't think there's an argument that increased hygiene helped, but I do think we should be careful with messing with nature and our bodies immune systems.  Not sure how true it is, but I remember the old tale that it wasn't a bad thing when your toddlers get exposed to all kinds of colds and stuff to build immunity...

and Stowe was fine with the mask stuff.  I'm was on board with the mask in the congested areas, lifts, lodges etc and everyone besides the "I'm going to prove a point people" were good about it...Whether I believe it is necessary or not,  just do it so it doesn't get shut down was my thinking...I think it's ridiculous to give someone a hard time about taking their mask down while ripping through the woods, tho....and the wearing the mask while  driving solo in your own car is a bit much, but whatever; it doesn't affect me.

For me, maybe we listen to the “slippery slope” gang a little more now. This all started with “15 days to slow the spread.” Sometimes the conspiracy theories are true. 

[powderfreak]

35 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I have noticed I have been less sick this winter. It is noticeable. Just a question of the “price” being paid for that. I have enough money to live a wonderful life separated from most people. But I try to think about how shitty that makes life for those who need to keep working every day and dealing with lockdowns and restrictions. The CEO of Pfizer doesn’t care about this. We are RPUs, Revenue Producing Units. 

Yeah I wasn't drawing any connections to being healthier to what we should do in the future.  Just an observation for sure but one can see why it's true.  We just all became insane clean freaks and cut down on a lot of the things that spread illnesses.  Lockdowns are a thing of the past for sure.  But it will be interesting to see if the cleanliness/hygiene stuff continues.

[bwt3650]

14 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

For me, maybe we listen to the “slippery slope” gang a little more now. This all started with “15 days to slow the spread.” Sometimes the conspiracy theories are true. 

aren't we coming up on the one year anniversary of 15 days to slow the spread? haha... Anyway, back to skiing...Prime spring skiing the next few days and next weekend/early week is looking more promising...I think at your elevation, you should bump up your totals in the next 10-14 days and maybe, I get some powder next week.

[radarman]

If wearing masks while actually skiing downhill is anything more than theater, expect a big outbreak after today.  

[Hitman]

Totally anecdotal, but I’ve heard there haven’t been any ear infections in the kids either.  

top ten day today.  

[Ginx snewx]

20 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah you wouldn’t like it here would be my guess. No one is messing around when the state gov’t has swung audits through. We had so many complaints the first half of the season about non-compliance with mask wearing (folks will call the state and complain that you Phin aren’t covering your nose at all times, ha) that it had to be cracked down on hard.

I think since Presidents Week is when there started being more push back the other direction but the first half of winter was entirely people thankful for the heavy hand of mask reminders and feeling safe was a big deal.

Many times the skiing public will just take it into their own hand and you’ll have 20 people telling some dude to put his mask on correctly.

For the ski areas it was necessary just to operate to be heavy handed.  They didn’t want to have a large COVID outbreak traced to them and they didn’t want to be forced to cease operations... so from a business continuity standpoint it made sense to lean hard towards one side.  I think it’s gone about as well as could be expected under the given circumstances.  From what I’ve heard all the VT areas are very similar in their practices.

I can also clearly say that mask wearing and hygiene does work really well.  This was by far the healthiest season for many departments... not so much as a case of the sniffles going around.  I’ve never gone through a whole winter without getting a solid week long sickness... and those stories are everywhere.  Folks now realizing they didn’t even have a single cold this winter.  Hygiene and masks isn’t just theater, it does seem to work.  Never had whole departments leveled with a stomach bug or fevers, head colds, etc like past winters. Sterilized world.

No ear infections either as Hitman said in the skiing thread, its almost as if its not the masks but the renewed emphasis on hygiene and cleaning. Mom was right all along.

[Brian5671]

20 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah I wasn't drawing any connections to being healthier to what we should do in the future.  Just an observation for sure but one can see why it's true.  We just all became insane clean freaks and cut down on a lot of the things that spread illnesses.  Lockdowns are a thing of the past for sure.  But it will be interesting to see if the cleanliness/hygiene stuff continues.

it will for awhile, but like all things, time fades the memories and we'll slowly revert back....

[PhineasC]

4 minutes ago, Brian5671 said:

it will for awhile, but like all things, time fades the memories and we'll slowly revert back....

Time hasn’t faded silliness like having to take off your shoes in the airport...

[Brian5671]

Ski wise I got out to Breck/Vail/BC/Keystone this Jan for 5 days of skiing and 3 days in CT at Mohawk.   Not bad given the circumstances.  Will do VT (okemo) next year-we had a trip set for March last year which got canceled, their restrictions were too much to get up there this year....

[toller65]

GFS hinting at some late March accumulation for Sugarloaf, though I am not holding my breath...

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[amarshall]

On 3/20/2021 at 9:58 PM, PhineasC said:

BW has been very lax about COVID, IMO. So that somewhat busts the theory a bit.

Sunday River was the only place we had an issue. My wife was actually busted for a "non-compliant mask" because it was too loose apparently. So they made her wear one of those throwaway ones that is basically a paper towel with strings on the ends... very effective I'm sure. Especially when they then jam everyone into a small space to wait for that silly "chondola" mess. You also couldn't order food at Sunday River inside. Had to stand outside and then take it in. Most of this stuff is clearly just about liability for the resort and not based on any sort of "science" to keep people safe. I noticed Maine is really into the hygiene theater stuff everywhere we went. I still saw them scurrying around spraying bleach on things and setting onerously short time limits for everything. Seems kinda silly at this point, but if that's what the gubmint says they have to do they have no choice.

This may not matter to a swinging bachelor skiing alone. The couple days I skied alone this season I didn't even notice the restrictions at all. It gets a lot harder with 4 young kids, however.

BW was much more relaxed about it. Sometimes my 4 year old forgot to have her mask up all the way getting on the lift and they didn't say a word. You could also sit in the lodge and get snacks/drinks as normal. Perhaps they are being "reckless," I dunno. I am glad I am in NH.

Sunday River was so over the top it was comical. Roving ski patrollers going through every line arguing the most miniscule mask protocol.  My mask covered half my nose down 1/2" and he made a point to come chase me down.  

Back to the Loaf we go. 

[tamarack]

2 hours ago, amarshall said:

Sunday River was so over the top it was comical. Roving ski patrollers going through every line arguing the most miniscule mask protocol.  My mask covered half my nose down 1/2" and he made a point to come chase me down.  

Back to the Loaf we go. 

SR may have the bullseye on its back, thanks to the "mask-rebel" restaurant nearby.

[amarshall]

Just now, tamarack said:

SR may have the bullseye on its back, thanks to the "mask-rebel" restaurant nearby.

They still weren't open.  Lost a whole season.  I bet he's done. 

[PhineasC]

2 hours ago, amarshall said:

Sunday River was so over the top it was comical. Roving ski patrollers going through every line arguing the most miniscule mask protocol.  My mask covered half my nose down 1/2" and he made a point to come chase me down.  

Back to the Loaf we go. 

Yep 

[LongBeachSurfFreak]

3 hours ago, amarshall said:

Sunday River was so over the top it was comical. Roving ski patrollers going through every line arguing the most miniscule mask protocol.  My mask covered half my nose down 1/2" and he made a point to come chase me down.  

Back to the Loaf we go. 

Similar at Killington. My friend was drinking a Gatorade and an employee went ballistic because he wasn’t pulling his mask up between sips. Meanwhile in the outdoor bar area everyone was maskless. I get it’s his job, but yelling and poking was over the top. Honestly I can’t wait for next season, full Gondis all day.