The 2020-2021 Ski season thread

[radarman]

Took this pic 20 years ago. 18-24" fresh on 12/31/00 @ Stratton on a disposable panoramic camera.  Hell of a way to close out the millenium.

[GCWarrior]

18 hours ago, radarman said:

Took this pic 20 years ago. 18-24" fresh on 12/31/00 @ Stratton on a disposable panoramic camera.  Hell of a way to close out the millenium.

What a glorious winter that was! Freshmen year at UNH, massive piles of snow everywhere in Durham. 

[GCWarrior]

Berkshire east was fun today.  Haven't been skiing in a few days due to trying to buy a car.  It was nice to make some turns with both my kids.  Drank a couple beers in the lot and hit up the outdoor food service window.  Everything is going pretty smoothly over there.  Their terrain is really very limited though.  Only three routes off the top basically.  Hopefully they will have upper competition open after this event is over tomorrow and things freeze up again. 

[radarman]

20 hours ago, GCWarrior said:

What a glorious winter that was! Freshmen year at UNH, massive piles of snow everywhere in Durham. 

The best

[snowgeek]

Gore was fun today. 4” fresh. 31 trails. No lines. 2nd day trying tele. Getting there. It’s fun to be a beginner again!!


.

[GCWarrior]

New ski boots are here on Tuesday.  Coming from EVO, maybe they bring some of that NW snow with them!  Mount Baker 140" base!

[PowderBeard]

I'm jonesing to get some lift turns in but I read some comments mountain FB pages and I snap back to reality. Just checked the cam at MRG and the double line is backed to the lodge lol. Cannon might be worth it with the Front 5 open or burn a day at Catamount. Sugarbush seems to have the best terrain open around which is a bit surprising. Side note, friends with a place at Attitash have got passes to Cranmore now since it and Wildcat are so bad. 40-60 minute waits at Attitash with a couple routes down, lines not as bad at Wildcat but limited terrain. 

[powderfreak]

Had a great time yesterday with some snowfall finally.

Saturday semi-holiday weekend for the New Year but no matter what anyone tells you about crowded mountains, there are always places to hide.

Had Big Spruce all to myself yesterday.  This was 1pm on Saturday at Stowe.  Nice surprise to take truly empty laps with only a handful of over people skiing/riding the zone.

[Angus]

Skied at Wildcat this afternoon for about 2 hours. Lynx has good coverage but Polecat seemed to have been opened in a hurry. There is only 5-6" of natural snow. I didn't see any snowmaking going on either. I have another Wildcat reservation for next weekend but will cancel and try to get a few hours at Crotched...kind of pathetic.

[HIPPYVALLEY]

On 1/2/2021 at 6:06 PM, snowgeek said:

Gore was fun today. 4” fresh. 31 trails. No lines. 2nd day trying tele. Getting there. It’s fun to be a beginner again!!


.

Don't forget tele is just a type of turn, not a rule.  I haven't put the free-heelers on in a few years but I always used to switch off between tele turns and parallel turns depending on how things felt on a particular trail. 

[PhineasC]

1 hour ago, Angus said:

Skied at Wildcat this afternoon for about 2 hours. Lynx has good coverage but Polecat seemed to have been opened in a hurry. There is only 5-6" of natural snow. I didn't see any snowmaking going on either. I have another Wildcat reservation for next weekend but will cancel and try to get a few hours at Crotched...kind of pathetic.

A lot of places don't seem to be trying particularly hard to get more terrain open. I assume they are playing it safe considering they could be shut down or severely restricted at a moment's notice, rendering the investment in snowmaking and staffing moot. It also doesn't help that the weather has sucked, of course.

[bwt3650]

38 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

A lot of places don't seem to be trying particularly hard to get more terrain open. I assume they are playing it safe considering they could be shut down or severely restricted at a moment's notice, rendering the investment in snowmaking and staffing moot. It also doesn't help that the weather has sucked, of course.

Something seems up with wildcat.  They seem like they aren’t trying at all, even when they had natural snow and could have opened earlier...and now not blowing and so few trails.  
 

I will say that I don’t think that’s the case at jay and Stowe.  Both seem to be blowing at every opportunity.  Guns have been on non-stop all week at jay.  They really don’t have tremendous fire power compared to a Stowe, snow or killington, but they have methodically been blowing the connections, beginner terrain and other important trails.  It usually takes them about 3-4 days from start to trail opening, but def not holding back.  Freezer should be opening in a few days and prob some natural terrain over there is close.

[bwt3650]

2 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Had a great time yesterday with some snowfall finally.

Saturday semi-holiday weekend for the New Year but no matter what anyone tells you about crowded mountains, there are always places to hide.

Had Big Spruce all to myself yesterday.  This was 1pm on Saturday at Stowe.  Nice surprise to take truly empty laps with only a handful of over people skiing/riding the zone.

Looks awesome..conditions were much better the last few days.  It’s getting close up here.  If the upslope had panned out this week like it looked earlier, would have seen some serious terrain expansion.  Hopefully, we get some surprises. 

[MarkO]

When did Vail Resorts buy out the corporation that owned Wildcat? It is a shame what's going on. I agree, Wildcat isn't even trying. Cannon, Loon, Waterville and even Bretton Woods have been blowing snow and opening up more terrain. I know it's been a tough winter, but those resorts, particularly Cannon and Loon are ~50% open. Wildcat has 9 trails (18%) open. There's almost no point going there. I'd also wager they get the most natural snow too.

[Angus]

9 is deceptive. I get the Covid thing but as my son points out, Vail just raised a ton of $$ in debt market. Stock is at a near all-time high. I could understand them essentially focusing on Attitash for that market but then I read above folks there buying passes at Cranmore. I always say that anything in December or January is bonus skiing in NE but I really was thinking of March-April at Wildcat when I got my pass. 

[GCWarrior]

Wildcat probably gets sold off.  It doesn't really fit Vail's profile. There is no lodging or on site dining besides the bar. Mount Snow, Okemo, Attitash, Stowe, Sunapee are very resorty, Wildcat is not really. 

[powderfreak]

30 minutes ago, GCWarrior said:

Wildcat probably gets sold off.  It doesn't really fit Vail's profile. There is no lodging or on site dining besides the bar. Mount Snow, Okemo, Attitash, Stowe, Sunapee are very resorty, Wildcat is not really. 

Yeah it just came with Peak Resorts (Mt Snow, Hunter, Wildcat, etc).  A good friend of mine is the GM at Wildcat now, worked with him for a while here at Stowe.  There’s often a lot of challenges behind the scenes too... who knows what the equipment is like or if there’s a larger infrastructure issue with snowmaking.  Could be staffing, or just perception too, lots of things.

I highly doubt it’s because they just aren’t trying lol.

[PhineasC]

15 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah it just came with Peak Resorts (Mt Snow, Hunter, Wildcat, etc).  A good friend of mine is the GM at Wildcat now, worked with him for a while here at Stowe.  There’s often a lot of challenges behind the scenes too... who knows what the equipment is like or if there’s a larger infrastructure issue with snowmaking.  Could be staffing, or just perception too, lots of things.

I highly doubt it’s because they just aren’t trying lol.

From a business perspective, not expending a ton of money in an uncertain season (for numerous reasons, not just the weather), makes perfect sense. I know you are coming at this as an employee of a ski place and will defend their efforts. That's fine. But someone above in the food chain there had to make a call about how much effort and money to dump into this ski season, and it doesn't seem at all outlandish that they decided to play it safe and limited. It seems pretty sensible, actually.

[powderfreak]

12 hours ago, PhineasC said:

A lot of places don't seem to be trying particularly hard to get more terrain open. I assume they are playing it safe considering they could be shut down or severely restricted at a moment's notice, rendering the investment in snowmaking and staffing moot. It also doesn't help that the weather has sucked, of course.

No I bet everyone is trying extremely hard.  The casual skier has been ripping the ski industry for "not trying" but I think it's more of a lack of understanding of snowmaking too... or at least an educational piece.  

Places really need sustained 25-26F or below to make snow.  Days rotting at highs of 32F and lows of 24F really are just a waste.  We've gotten hammered by people wondering why it's 28F but there's no snowmaking.  Most of the energy efficient equipment now does need lower wet bulb temperatures.  The old school land frames that like Killington drags out in October can make snow at 28F but most of the newer stuff (energy efficient!) needs colder temperatures.  The large fan guns we have shut themselves off at 26F.  The main system at resorts can take hours to sufficiently charge too.  When charging the system, it takes a decent time to get sufficient water pressure up 2,000 vertical feet of terrain.  Resorts are pretty nimble, but in general snowmaking isn't going to fire up for 3-4 hours of temperatures during the early morning hours.  So like a brief low of 22F doesn't really do any good.  It needs to get down low and stay there for 6-8 hours at least to be worth firing up.

The temperatures have been very warm too.  Looking at the Mansfield COOP data for the Summit (ie. coldest place around)....

December 2020 was +7 to +8F above normal.  And here's where it impacts snowmaking:

Normal December... 22F Max and 8F Min

This December... 29F Max and 17F Min

The mean temperature this month was 22.5F (at the summit, coldest place on the hill) compared to 15.3F normally.  That's actually an extremely significant difference for our snowmaking.  Normal December temperatures are just cold enough for round the clock snowmaking on average, but if all elevations average 5-8F higher than normal we are crossing that threshold where it's very unfavorable.  MVL ASOS down in radiation-ville was +5.3... a significant positive departure.

In my semi-education opinion on snowmaking and weather, I think this start to the ski season has been a perception issue where the temperatures haven't been cold at all.  It's actually ridiculously warm for departures to be honest.  But it also has rotted for days and days of temperatures that are just cold enough to preserve snow or get natural to fall, but NOT be cold enough for decent snowmaking if that makes sense.

This month crossed the threshold with temperatures relative to normal where it has drastically impacted snowmaking operations at a lot of resorts.  The constant start up, shut down, start up, shut down, is a huge amount of human capital too.  The labor and time to do that over and over and over all month is not ideal.  Also with COVID restrictions, you used to be able to put a dozen snowmakers into a Bus Cat (Snowcat with transport cabin on back of it) and drop them off all at once.  Now snowmaking teams at area resorts need to transport each other one or two at a time.  Can't fill 12 seats in a Bus Cat and drop everyone off in one run, now it can take hours to get a full crew out where they need to be.

Lots of behind the scenes stuff, but hopefully it sheds some light on the snowmaking challenges so far this season with regards to average temperatures and how a warm month of this magnitude can affect it.

[powderfreak]

13 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

From a business perspective, not expending a ton of money in an uncertain season (for numerous reasons, not just the weather), makes perfect sense. I know you are coming at this as an employee of a ski place and will defend their efforts. That's fine. But someone above in the food chain there had to make a call about how much effort and money to dump into this ski season, and it doesn't seem at all outlandish that they decided to play it safe and limited. It seems pretty sensible, actually.

No for sure it makes sense and for sure the budget is lower.  But snowmaking budgets work a bit differently as more like when they run out, they run out.  You would still dump all your money into as much early season snowmaking as possible.  If you run out of it in late January, then you are done.  But no one would pass up a snowmaking opportunity at this point to save money with the idea to allocate it to a later date.  They would do it once the budget runs out (which happens even in good years).

It's one of those things where the faucet is turned on full blast until the well runs out, vs. trying to save some water for later in the season.  And more terrain, more lifts spread skiers out for social distancing and all that stuff.  The goal is to spread people out this year.  I know from being in the daily snowmaking meetings that at least locally it's a weather, transport, and labor issue at this point instead of trying to save money.  The idea in snowmaking is to spend your money as fast as possible and get those dollars on the ground in the form of sleet, ha. 

[PhineasC]

2 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

No I bet everyone is trying extremely hard.  The casual skier has been ripping the ski industry for "not trying" but I think it's more of a lack of understanding of snowmaking too... or at least an educational piece.  

Places really need sustained 25-26F or below to make snow.  Days rotting at highs of 32F and lows of 24F really are just a waste.  We've gotten hammered by people wondering why it's 28F but there's no snowmaking.  Most of the energy efficient equipment now does need lower wet bulb temperatures.  The old school land frames that like Killington drags out in October can make snow at 28F but most of the newer stuff (energy efficient!) needs colder temperatures.  The large fan guns we have shut themselves off at 26F.  The main system at resorts can take hours to sufficiently charge too.  When charging the system, it takes a decent time to get sufficient water pressure up 2,000 vertical feet of terrain.  Resorts are pretty nimble, but in general snowmaking isn't going to fire up for 3-4 hours of temperatures during the early morning hours.  So like a brief low of 22F doesn't really do any good.  It needs to get down low and stay there for 6-8 hours at least to be worth firing up.

The temperatures have been very warm too.  Looking at the Mansfield COOP data for the Summit (ie. coldest place around)....

December 2020 was +7 to +8F above normal.  And here's where it impacts snowmaking:

Normal December... 22F Max and 8F Min

This December... 29F Max and 17F Min

The mean temperature this month was 22.5F (at the summit, coldest place on the hill) compared to 15.3F normally.  That's actually an extremely significant difference for our snowmaking.  Normal December temperatures are just cold enough for round the clock snowmaking on average, but if all elevations average 5-8F higher than normal we are crossing that threshold where it's very unfavorable.  MVL ASOS down in radiation-ville was +5.3... a significant positive departure.

In my semi-education opinion on snowmaking and weather, I think this start to the ski season has been a perception issue where the temperatures haven't been cold at all.  It's actually ridiculously warm for departures to be honest.  But it also has rotted for days and days of temperatures that are just cold enough to preserve snow or get natural to fall, but NOT be cold enough for decent snowmaking if that makes sense.

This month crossed the threshold with temperatures relative to normal where it has drastically impacted snowmaking operations at a lot of resorts.  The constant start up, shut down, start up, shut down, is a huge amount of human capital too.  The labor and time to do that over and over and over all month is not ideal.  Also with COVID restrictions, you used to be able to put a dozen snowmakers into a Bus Cat (Snowcat with transport cabin on back of it) and drop them off all at once.  Now snowmaking teams at area resorts need to transport each other one or two at a time.  Can't fill 12 seats in a Bus Cat and drop everyone off in one run, now it can take hours to get a full crew out where they need to be.

Lots of behind the scenes stuff, but hopefully it sheds some light on the snowmaking challenges so far this season with regards to average temperatures and how a warm month of this magnitude can affect it.

This is really in-depth info, and I appreciate you posting it. I am not trying to call into question the personal work ethic of the snow-makers and groomers, though. LOL

I was just talking about the accountants, lawyers, and, in some cases, the shareholders who make decisions at a high level about the investment of dollars.

I don't run a ski resort, so I am just making guesses, but from a business perspective it makes perfect sense to me that a smallish place like Wildcat would not want to invest a lot of time and money into such an uncertain season. Rather, they will wait to see what Mother Nature and the governors do. Just my take on it. I'm sure weather has played a role.

[bch2014]

I think the frustrating piece for Attitash and Wildcat skiers is that Cannon, Loon, BW, Cranmore, etc, their chief competitors, have done a far better job of getting terrain open this season. 
 

Cannon, for example, has upwards of 40 trails open. Cannon isn’t exactly a resort known for its snowmaking and grooming (not that they’re bad-but it’s not Okemo). 

[PowderBeard]

29 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah it just came with Peak Resorts (Mt Snow, Hunter, Wildcat, etc).  A good friend of mine is the GM at Wildcat now, worked with him for a while here at Stowe.  There’s often a lot of challenges behind the scenes too... who knows what the equipment is like or if there’s a larger infrastructure issue with snowmaking.  Could be staffing, or just perception too, lots of things.

I highly doubt it’s because they just aren’t trying lol.

Completely, agree. I don't believe it is from a lack of trying and trying to communicate that would be great.

 

@PhineasC everywhere is definitely trying to expand and spread folks out as as more terrain = more lifts = less lines/frustration. That said I could definitely see some places not over-extending like why would Killington bother to blow on South Ridge or try to get Skyeship 1 area going or Pico blowing on Little Pico or Outpost area. I was actually surprised to see Cannon pounding Mittersill area but they may need it given their layout, Cannonball Quad's notorious windholds, and no Tram. I would bet some trails not getting their usual love to make it into the warmer months (e.g., Superstar at K, White Heat at the Rivah, Stein's at Bush, Front 5 at Cannon, Tali at Magic, Bear Trap/North Ridge at Mount Snow). 

[J.Spin]

10 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

No I bet everyone is trying extremely hard.  The casual skier has been ripping the ski industry for "not trying" but I think it's more of a lack of understanding of snowmaking too... or at least an educational piece.  

Places really need sustained 25-26F or below to make snow.  Days rotting at highs of 32F and lows of 24F really are just a waste.  We've gotten hammered by people wondering why it's 28F but there's no snowmaking.  Most of the energy efficient equipment now does need lower wet bulb temperatures.  The old school land frames that like Killington drags out in October can make snow at 28F but most of the newer stuff (energy efficient!) needs colder temperatures.  The large fan guns we have shut themselves off at 26F.  The main system at resorts can take hours to sufficiently charge too.  When charging the system, it takes a decent time to get sufficient water pressure up 2,000 vertical feet of terrain.  Resorts are pretty nimble, but in general snowmaking isn't going to fire up for 3-4 hours of temperatures during the early morning hours.  So like a brief low of 22F doesn't really do any good.  It needs to get down low and stay there for 6-8 hours at least to be worth firing up.

The temperatures have been very warm too.  Looking at the Mansfield COOP data for the Summit (ie. coldest place around)....

December 2020 was +7 to +8F above normal.  And here's where it impacts snowmaking:

Normal December... 22F Max and 8F Min

This December... 29F Max and 17F Min

The mean temperature this month was 22.5F (at the summit, coldest place on the hill) compared to 15.3F normally.  That's actually an extremely significant difference for our snowmaking.  Normal December temperatures are just cold enough for round the clock snowmaking on average, but if all elevations average 5-8F higher than normal we are crossing that threshold where it's very unfavorable.  MVL ASOS down in radiation-ville was +5.3... a significant positive departure.

In my semi-education opinion on snowmaking and weather, I think this start to the ski season has been a perception issue where the temperatures haven't been cold at all.  It's actually ridiculously warm for departures to be honest.  But it also has rotted for days and days of temperatures that are just cold enough to preserve snow or get natural to fall, but NOT be cold enough for decent snowmaking if that makes sense.

This month crossed the threshold with temperatures relative to normal where it has drastically impacted snowmaking operations at a lot of resorts.  The constant start up, shut down, start up, shut down, is a huge amount of human capital too.  The labor and time to do that over and over and over all month is not ideal.  Also with COVID restrictions, you used to be able to put a dozen snowmakers into a Bus Cat (Snowcat with transport cabin on back of it) and drop them off all at once.  Now snowmaking teams at area resorts need to transport each other one or two at a time.  Can't fill 12 seats in a Bus Cat and drop everyone off in one run, now it can take hours to get a full crew out where they need to be.

Lots of behind the scenes stuff, but hopefully it sheds some light on the snowmaking challenges so far this season with regards to average temperatures and how a warm month of this magnitude can affect it.

Thanks PF, that’s really insightful stuff that the average resort visitor is not going to be aware of.  I always knew that snowmaking was much more efficient down at those lower temperatures (to a point, since I know you’ve said that are issues when it gets too cold), but I had no idea the temperature threshold for decent efficiency (mid 20s F) was so low.  Obviously wet bulb temperatures etc. play into that too, but wow, I figured the big efficiency issues didn’t start until you got to around 32 F and above.  As a skier, I’ve been loving these moderate temperatures we’ve had thus far in December and January – cold enough to get snow and hold it (barring the storms where we get into the warm sector significantly of course), but not so cold that we’re freezing our butts off out there.  I look at the forecast and see mountain high temperatures in the 20s to near 30 F and think, “sweet!” – I had no idea that the departures were representing such a challenge for snowmaking.

[PowderBeard]

2 minutes ago, bch2014 said:

I think the frustrating piece for Attitash and Wildcat skiers is that Cannon, Loon, BW, Cranmore, etc, their chief competitors, have done a far better job of getting terrain open this season. 
 

Cannon, for example, has upwards of 40 trails open. Cannon isn’t exactly a resort known for its snowmaking and grooming (not that they’re bad-but it’s not Okemo). 

Yea given the VT travel restrictions I figured NH areas would have gone nuts and are seeing increased traffic or at least doing "the best" in New England. Showing how different Wildcat's terrain and vibe is from other NH areas could have been a real selling point to grab a pass for folks who usually travel to VT from Boston area. Especially when they could do short drives to Crotched and Sunapee as well. 

[GCWarrior]

After today it would see that there is a nice long window for snowmaking.  Guns should be firing up tonight here at Berkshire east. 

[PowderBeard]

28 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

No for sure it makes sense and for sure the budget is lower.  But snowmaking budgets work a bit differently as more like when they run out, they run out.  You would still dump all your money into as much early season snowmaking as possible.  If you run out of it in late January, then you are done.  

It always appeared to me this is the practice of most smaller areas in CT, Mass, and southern NH. I know for a fact it is Sundown's. A couple years ago they had the biggest whales I had ever seen, probably 14-16' high, just as wide, and just below some lifts around New Year's. Sooner places can end snowmaking the sooner they can lay people off.  No point making snow in Feb or March when the mountain will be shut down in a month or so. In the years I was a passholder at Peak's and skiing Crotched, I never remember a gun going after MLK weekend. They would bury early and ride it out until the first week of April. Whereas the larger areas up north can still draw well later in the year, plus passholders would riot if the were not skiing soft bumps in April and May. 

[Angus]

A couple of observations - unlike the VT properties, 3 out of the 3 (edit: Sunapee was purchased as part of Okemo/Crested Butte transaction) NH properties bought by Vail as part of the Peak's purchase essentially have no resort (lodging) component. Crotched and Wildcat no. Sunapee is in a state park and there may be a condo angle in their long term plan with new lift and terrain expansion but I can't remember for sure. As usual, PF makes good points re: charging system, wet bulb, et cetera but when I see areas well south opening more terrain it is a bit frustrating. Again, I think the frustration voiced by the Attitash customers is telling IMO - btw: Cranmore is a great little mountain which I only recently discovered having driven past it for 2+ decades! Finally, my gripes are not focused upon the rank and file or even the GM, these are decisions being made at corporate level. As I've expressed here earlier, my strategy was ski VT on weekdays and Wildcat on Sundays with an occasion visit to Crotched for night skiing or afternoon but VT's COVID restrictions have kind of blown that up ... although to be honest 2 of my 4 days thus far have been in VT ... please don't tell. Also, I'll just add, I've got little interest in skiing at Attitash or Sunapee on any regular basis, to me from a terrain perspective mount snow - north side; stowe and wildcat have best (challenging) terrain of the Vail NE properties.

[powderfreak]

3 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

This is really in-depth info, and I appreciate you posting it. I am not trying to call into question the personal work ethic of the snow-makers and groomers, though. LOL

I was just talking about the accountants, lawyers, and, in some cases, the shareholders who make decisions at a high level about the investment of dollars.

I don't run a ski resort, so I am just making guesses, but from a business perspective it makes perfect sense to me that a smallish place like Wildcat would not want to invest a lot of time and money into such an uncertain season. Rather, they will wait to see what Mother Nature and the governors do. Just my take on it. I'm sure weather has played a role.

For sure at Wildcat it might be a possibility, I was more speaking generally about eastern ski resorts.  I do think the weather factors into it more right now just because of the threshold of average temperatures and what constitutes a "good snowmaking run."  With employee safety COVID protocols and the accountant side of it, I would agree that less money would be spent on shorter windows of snowmaking which is probably the right combo of weather and money.

You won't burn start up money to charge the system if it's going to be turned off in 4 hours anyway.  You're right on that side, I bet no doubt the shorter windows are impacted and this month has had a lot of up and down temperature swings with very short snowmaking windows.

[PowderBeard]

14 minutes ago, Angus said:

Cranmore is a great little mountain which I only recently discovered having driven past it for 2+ decades! 

NH has some little gems for sure. I hope Granite Gorge can return one day. Have you ever hit Whaleback? I wish that place got more snow, it has some seriously fun and challenging terrain. Their intermediate trails are steeper than most advanced runs at Stratton, Mount Snow, or Okemo. There is a reason why the Whaleback freeride kids do so well at Ski the East and other comps.