Land Purchase

[ORH_wxman]

18 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

What's the elevation of the plot?  I think the town center is only like 700-800', but it goes up quickly heading towards Stratton.  Retention will be really good there, maybe not MW Maine good, but still impressive given the Latitude and longitude.  Its a good spot for any coastal type of storm or any E/SE flow event--which most synoptic events are.  You will lose some upslope component as you are starting to get further away from the Spine in Jamaica, again depending on where exactly it is.  If your near town center or east of there, snowfall totals would drop off compared the west side heading up in elevation.

But if you are looking for 20-30 acres and cutting down your driving distance, than options get limited a bit.  It's a good spot, you can cherry pick better ones in SVT if you had no acreage limitations, etc.  Jamaica is is really nice spot distance wise from Stratton and Magic..and even Mt Snow to the south.

 

 

I’m guessing if he’s going 10-30 acres, he’s prob west of downtown Jamaica over 1000 feet. But yeah, right down at the River in eastern sections will def be less...but even there the retention is probably pretty sweet. I’ve only driven through there a few times in winter but I don’t ever remember seeing Brattleboro or Bennington-esque conditions. It always looked buried. 

[wxmanmitch]

The S VT plateau is one of the most under appreciated snow belts in all of New England IMO and it can rival some of the big ones like the Rangeley, ME area. Like Will (ORH_wxman) mentioned average annual snowfall can be above 150" in these parts. 3 foot+ snow packs are not uncommon. I had ~150" last winter and probably 200-210" the year before. I moved here at the beginning of March 2018, so while my sample size is small, we did have a 4 and half foot pack in mid March that year. Who knows what it would've been if it weren't for the ridiculous late February torch that year too. 

I've had ~120" so far this season, which isn't all that bad despite being somewhat below normal. We've had considerably worse (i.e. '15-'16, '11-12, '05-'06, '01-'02). The big drawback this winter has been the frequent rains and torches, especially the one in the second week of January that nearly wiped out our snow pack from November and December. As it stands, the snowfall is about a C/C+, the winter overall a D+. 

My peak depth was in the high 20s back in late February so we did make a recovery in late January and February with frequent small to medium events, most of which included some rain or mix. 

There are some insane gradients around here, so be careful if snow is a top priority. As a rule of thumb, if you're above 2,000' and within a few miles of the 73° W longitude line, you'll do quite well. The Wardsboro, Jamaica, Dover, etc, area does well in nor'easters and with cold air damming overrunning events, but doesn't get as much as the backside W and NW upslope that Woodford, Searsburg, and my location in the far NE corner of Stamford does. I get a nice mix of snow from coastals, upslope, and overrunners. 

The nice thing about this location is not being too far away from the cities. Albany, NY is 90 minutes, Hartford, CT 2 hours, Boston 3-3.5 hours, and NYC 3.5-4 hours. The small cities of North Adams, MA are 20 minutes, Pittsfield, MA 50-55 minutes, and Bennington 30-35 minutes away, so there's none of this hour+ drive stuff just to go to a grocery store or Walmart supercenter like you might have up in Rangeley, ME or Pittsburg, NH. 

As for 30 acre+ plots, they are around if you look. There's a 49 acre plot at like 1,700-1,800' near here in Stamford that's $150K. It won't get quite as much snow as I do just up the hill at 2,230', but still does quite well. There's at least one more up on route 8 in Searsburg at 2,300'-2,400' just north of the wind turbines. It's a roadside sign, and I can't find it online, so I'm not sure what the price or acreage is. That is an absolutely crazy spot for snow...at least as good as my spot.

[PhineasC]

22 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

 Good thing to know the right people to ask before putting a down payment on some land in Bennington.  You would trying to unload that after 1 winter...lol

LOL yup this was the first place I consulted when I started looking. 

[backedgeapproaching]

4 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

I’m guessing if he’s going 10-30 acres, he’s prob west of downtown Jamaica over 1000 feet. But yeah, right down at the River in eastern sections will def be less...but even there the retention is probably pretty sweet. I’ve only driven through there a few times in winter but I don’t ever remember seeing Brattleboro or Bennington-esque conditions. It always looked buried. 

Oh yea, even in the little village of Jamaica at 750' the retention is outrageously better than Bennington, Brattleboro or even here in Manchester at similar elevation. 

[PhineasC]

3 minutes ago, wxmanmitch said:

The S VT plateau is one of the most under appreciated snow belts in all of New England IMO and it can rival some of the big ones like the Rangeley, ME area. Like Will (ORH_wxman) mentioned average annual snowfall can be above 150" in these parts. 3 foot+ snow packs are not uncommon. I had ~150" last winter and probably 200-210" the year before. I moved here at the beginning of March 2018, so while my sample size is small, we did have a 4 and half foot pack in mid March that year. Who knows what it would've been if it weren't for the ridiculous late February torch that year too. 

I've had ~120" so far this season, which isn't all that bad despite being somewhat below normal. We've had considerably worse (i.e. '15-'16, '11-12, '05-'06, '01-'02). The big drawback this winter has been the frequent rains and torches, especially the one in the second week of January that nearly wiped out our snow pack from November and December. As it stands, the snowfall is about a C/C+, the winter overall a D+. 

My peak depth was in the high 20s back in late February so we did make a recovery in late January and February with frequent small to medium events, most of which included some rain or mix. 

There are some insane gradients around here, so be careful if snow is a top priority. As a rule of thumb, if you're above 2,000' and within a few miles of the 73° W longitude line, you'll do quite well. The Wardsboro, Jamaica, Dover, etc, area does well in nor'easters and with cold air damming overrunning events, but doesn't get as much as the backside W and NW upslope that Woodford, Searsburg, and my location in the far NE corner of Stamford does. I get a nice mix of snow from coastals, upslope, and overrunners. 

The nice thing about this location is not being too far away from the cities. Albany, NY is 90 minutes, Hartford, CT 2 hours, Boston 3-3.5 hours, and NYC 3.5-4 hours. The small cities of North Adams, MA are 20 minutes, Pittsfield, MA 50-55 minutes, and Bennington 30-35 minutes away, so there's none of this hour+ drive stuff just to go to a grocery store or Walmart supercenter like you might have up in Rangeley, ME or Pittsburg, NH. 

As for 30 acre+ plots, they are around if you look. There's a 49 acre plot at like 1,700-1,800' near here in Stamford that's $150K. It won't get quite as much snow as I do just up the hill at 2,230', but still does quite well. There's at least one more up on route 8 in Searsburg at 2,300'-2,400' just north of the wind turbines. It's a roadside sign, and I can't find it online, so I'm not sure what the price or acreage is. That is an absolutely crazy spot for snow...at least as good as my spot.

Really nice detail. Thanks for writing this up. 

[wxmanmitch]

3 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Really nice detail. Thanks for writing this up. 

Thanks, I did find the lot in question in Searsburg. 256 acres for $229K.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/245-Route-8_Searsburg_VT_05363_M99787-41776?view=qv

[ORH_wxman]

7 minutes ago, wxmanmitch said:

Thanks, I did find the lot in question in Searsburg. 256 acres for $229K.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/245-Route-8_Searsburg_VT_05363_M99787-41776?view=qv

Phineas might need to start his own small logging company with a plot size like that. Lol. 

But that might be the snowiest land for sale in all of New England. 

[mreaves]

3 hours ago, PhineasC said:

Yeah, I am trying to secure something there. Also looking at southern Vermont near Stratton (e.g., Jamaica, VT) if a good location in NH doesn't work out. That's an easier drive too, but worried about proximity to Albany and NY'ers... Also massholes too of course LOL

Near Jay it’s the Québécois. 

[PhineasC]

4 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Phineas might need to start his own small logging company with a plot size like that. Lol. 

But that might be the snowiest land for sale in all of New England. 

Yeah, I was already drooling over that one. I think I mentioned it to you in my PM.

Bit too much for me to handle in terms of the amount of land. I am not a farmer or logger. 

[Angus]

one thing you might want to do before buying a big lot is a bit of discovery on is the prospective cost of road building. I happened to be riding a lift earlier this season with a guy who was relocating up into ski country and had a big budget - $1mm plus - and he told me about all these great pieces of property he kept finding but they were all thwarted by the road cost he'd incurred getting to the desired home location. I can't remember exactly but the per foot cost was crazy...the road was going to cost as much as his 4-5K sq ft home. 

[mreaves]

8 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Yeah, I was already drooling over that one. I think I mentioned it to you in my PM.

Bit too much for me to handle in terms of the amount of land. I am not a farmer or logger. 

You don’t need to be, you just need to know the right people. Most loggers don’t own the land. When you buy it you hire a forester to help you make a plan to manage the land. I even think the State has foresters in each county that work with landowners to develop management plans for little or no fee.  

https://fpr.vermont.gov/forest/managing-your-woodlands/county-forester-program

[PhineasC]

2 minutes ago, mreaves said:

You don’t need to be, you just need to know the right people. Most loggers don’t own the land. When you buy it you hire a forester to help you make a plan to manage the land. I even think the State has foresters in each county that work with landowners to develop management plans for little or no fee.  

https://fpr.vermont.gov/forest/managing-your-woodlands/county-forester-program

I would love to do that but I already have several properties and a business. I need to unload some of this sh*t to be a logger. LOL

Goal would be to make this my primary in a few years so I want to be set with snow.

[TauntonBlizzard2013]

1 hour ago, Angus said:

one thing you might want to do before buying a big lot is a bit of discovery on is the prospective cost of road building. I happened to be riding a lift earlier this season with a guy who was relocating up into ski country and had a big budget - $1mm plus - and he told me about all these great pieces of property he kept finding but they were all thwarted by the road cost he'd incurred getting to the desired home location. I can't remember exactly but the per foot cost was crazy...the road was going to cost as much as his 4-5K sq ft home. 

Yup... big money to maintain too. Plowing, and if it’s gravel, grading filling etc etc 

[STILL N OF PIKE]

2 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah Jamaica is right next to Stratton. Good spot there. Great combo of annual snowfall and retention and proximity to ski areas. 

I would say Mitches plot in S VT blows the doors off of anything in Jamaica near 1k. That Jamaica area in S VT had plenty of negative years before the last couple .

That upslope and dying Lake effect makes Mitch’s  his location as ratter proof as almost anything at that latitude but Jamaica ...i mean Maine is much better N NH is much better , N Greens anywhere near spine  are much better .

i wouldn’t put Jamaica on a short list unless maybe it’s 1800’ and still much better options 

 

[tamarack]

4 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

Bennington is a bad snow hole. You’d want to be east of them up in the Woodford/Searsburg region...which is actually very close...just a 15 min jaunt east on rt 9. Very big snowfall gradient there. 

As for Portland. You’re prob gonna want something a bit south of Sunday River. You can get to towns like Waterford, Stoneham, Lovell, Sweden in less than an hour and from there you are only like 25-30 min to Sunday River or maybe 10 min to Shawnee Peak. You won’t get the 200” snowfall totals there like Montgomery Vt or even Woodford VT, but they do have probably some of the best retention in New England outside of those 2500 foot elevations. A 100” winter there which is pretty normal will feel like 150-160 in some other places that don’t retain quite as well. 

The co-op in Hartford (Maine, of course) averages nearly 110" at 745' elev, though its POR is only 22 years.  It's about 20 miles NNW from LEW and less that 10 miles from Route 26 in West Paris.  That highway goes right to the access road for SR, maybe an hour from Hartford, depending where one is in the town.  Probably not a whole lot farther from Wildcat.  The Sumner Hills (of which Hartford is a part) are notable snow catchers.

[tamarack]

2 hours ago, PhineasC said:

I would love to do that but I already have several properties and a business. I need to unload some of this sh*t to be a logger. LOL

Goal would be to make this my primary in a few years so I want to be set with snow.

Mreaves is on the right track.  The state forester can discuss your objectives with the land and offer some insight on the possibilities offered by your forest.  That person won't run your timber sale (at least not in Maine, probably not in VT/NH either) but can point you to reputable private consulting foresters.  A number of surveys have consistently demonstrated that timber sales with forester supervision result in a more valuable residual forest and bring more revenue to landowners than jobs without forester input.

As a long time forester I was able (and eager) to write my own management plan and mark all the trees to be cut, but for my timber harvest 7 years ago I worked with a forestry company with better connections to markets and loggers than I'll ever have.

[ORH_wxman]

1 hour ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

I would say Mitches plot in S VT blows the doors off of anything in Jamaica near 1k. That Jamaica area in S VT had plenty of negative years before the last couple .

That upslope and dying Lake effect makes Mitch’s  his location as ratter proof as almost anything at that latitude but Jamaica ...i mean Maine is much better N NH is much better , N Greens anywhere near spine  are much better .

i wouldn’t put Jamaica on a short list unless maybe it’s 1800’ and still much better options 

 

Well obviously 2200-2400 feet is going to blow the doors off anything else...but the options are limited if he’s looking for some specific features like plot size, etc. 

But Jamaica (esp over 1000 feet west of town) still is a great spot. They average well over 100” with insanely good snow retention. 

[alex]

8 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

Same deal as whitefield, maybe slightly better, unless you are far enough east to be getting right near Bretton woods. It’s actually amazing sometimes driving from Franconia notch right near Cannon where it might be buried to almost nothing within 5 miles just to the north of the notch. 

Its not always like that but it’s frequent enough that you’ll feel the frustration. 

Yes that’s true. I mean, I often get an earful from Diane and she’s in Twin, so much closer to Bretton Woods than anything in Bethlehem. And as far as notches, Crawford Notch usually has much better snow than Franconia Notch... not that you can buy anything in either notch, unless you go down towards Hearts Location. Amazing snow retention there, although you lose a lot of the upslope action. 

[dryslot]

On 4/3/2020 at 8:32 PM, ORH_wxman said:

Saddleback has such badass terrain I think it should stay open if run efficiently. There will be people to ski there. But yeah, there’s some risk still. Rangeley is gorgeous in the summer at least if winter skiing kind of craps out. Sunday River is about, what, 90 min south of Rangeley? 

Could always hedge and get something a little south of Rangeley so that the drive to SR isn’t that far. There’s tons of beautiful land between the two. 

Sugarloaf would be closer to get too if skiing is the preference then treking to SR from there.

[ORH_wxman]

Getting back to the S VT discussion near Stratton...we were discussing towns like Wardsboro and Jamaica....on the topo map below, you can see how different the west sides of these towns are compared to downtown. Even though downtown areas are still plenty good for snow, you'll be so much better out in the circled regions....that circled region if you look at properties there all either say West Wardsboro or Jamaica....even though they aren't that close to the downtown areas (marked by the X)....I also marked Stratton and Mount Snow respectively with the S and MS.

But that circled area is almost all completely above 1500 feet...and most of it is in the 1700-2000 foot range, and they are exceptionally good for snowfall. Prob 125-140" annual averages there with excellent retention. You'll get over 150" if you sneak up into the 2100-2300 foot range.

 

[powderfreak]

52 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Getting back to the S VT discussion near Stratton...we were discussing towns like Wardsboro and Jamaica....on the topo map below, you can see how different the west sides of these towns are compared to downtown. Even though downtown areas are still plenty good for snow, you'll be so much better out in the circled regions....that circled region if you look at properties there all either say West Wardsboro or Jamaica....even though they aren't that close to the downtown areas (marked by the X)....I also marked Stratton and Mount Snow respectively with the S and MS.

But that circled area is almost all completely above 1500 feet...and most of it is in the 1700-2000 foot range, and they are exceptionally good for snowfall. Prob 125-140" annual averages there with excellent retention. You'll get over 150" if you sneak up into the 2100-2300 foot range.

 

If I were buying in SVT and had choices.... I want to be on that high elevation plateau without a doubt... above 1,500ft.

There's so much high terrain in that area that if you are picking a spot primarily for snow, you can't be under 1,500ft.

[ORH_wxman]

14 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

If I were buying in SVT and had choices.... I want to be on that high elevation plateau without a doubt... above 1,500ft.

There's so much high terrain in that area that if you are picking a spot primarily for snow, you can't be under 1,500ft.

Agreed and there’s actually quite a bit of property above 1700 feet in that immediate area on the map above that’s pretty reasonably priced. I’d definitely want to try and grab something in that range. It looks like prices only get really out of control almost right at the mountain. But even 2 or 3 miles away is relatively affordable. 

[powderfreak]

When Phin was talking Montgomery, I saw there's a roughly 30-acre weenie parcel that straddles the Montgomery/Richford town line and on Topo maps it almost looks like you could ski off the backside of Jay Peak all the way to the property if you had some decent backcountry skills.

This spot would get absolutely destroyed for snow.  It's not far enough west by any measure to get easterly flow downslope, if anything you're probably just upsloping from all wind directions due to the terrain in the area....there isn't enough room for large scale sinking air from any direction.

Backside of every low pressure system you'd just get crushed as the winds turn NNW... even rainers would end pretty snowy.  I've got a couple FB friends who live up in Montgomery (Jay skiers) and when they post shots outside their houses it is a completely different animal than down here.    Like getting 1" of rain then 4" of paste on the side of the trees when the cold front comes through.

That spot would be an extreme snow spot and seeing as most nor'easters end with cyclonic flow, the Richford Trained Spotter is almost always at the top of the Vermont snowfall list.

You'd see a lot of storms where you are top of the list in that spot.  That might be one of the snowiest plots for land on sale right now in the State.

Every time in the winter the models have that light green 0.01" QPF blob sitting over you it's snowing.

...FRANKLIN COUNTY...

1 NW RICHFORD 38.4 939 AM 3/16 TRAINED SPOTTER

GEORGIA CENTER 35.5 1154 PM 3/15 PUBLIC

BAKERSFIELD 34.0 900 PM 3/15 PUBLIC

FAIRFAX 30.0 103 PM 3/15 PUBLIC

[ORH_wxman]

Lol nice. Yeah that spot could be one of the single snowiest annual averages in all of New England for private livable property. All others that are higher would prob be land over 2500 or 3000 feet that isn’t buildable or own-able. 

[tamarack]

3 hours ago, dryslot said:

Sugarloaf would be closer to get too if skiing is the preference then treking to SR from there.

One page 1 of this thread Will mentioned Dallas Plantation, and if I were looking for a ski-oriented site in the western Maine mountains that would be one of the first places to check.  Prices should be considerably lower than in Rangeley (stay away from Saddleback Lake) and much of the township would offer views of the Saddleback trails.  It's also on the way to Sugarloaf, and though that hill would be only 10-15 miles away, Crocker Mountain (pretty in its own right) would block the view.

[backedgeapproaching]

I would triple confirm what Will and PF said.   1500+ is where you need to be in SVT.  Whenever I drive from my place to Stratton, snow pack drops somewhat quick from say 1700-1800ft down into Bondville at 1250ft (the town at Stratton's entrance).

 

 

 

[ORH_wxman]

I’ve often searched the topo maps and real estate listings to find the weeniest snow spots in New England. 

One of my most underrated is the highlands east and northeast of Diamond Pond in Coos county NH. The Diamond Pond coop itself was only around for like 10 years or so but they averaged like 230” of snow. Yet there is more favorable privately owned terrain to their east and northeast. Some of those spots must be between 250-300”. Not much of anything out there either including ski resorts (the failed Balsams not withstanding), lol. It’s gorgeous country though.

 

[mreaves]

11 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

I’ve often searched the topo maps and real estate listings to find the weeniest snow spots in New England. 

One of my most underrated is the highlands east and northeast of Diamond Pond in Coos county NH. The Diamond Pond coop itself was only around for like 10 years or so but they averaged like 230” of snow. Yet there is more favorable privately owned terrain to their east and northeast. Some of those spots must be between 250-300”. Not much of anything out there either including ski resorts (the failed Balsams not withstanding), lol. It’s gorgeous country though.

 

They hold the annual Snodeo at Colman State Park.  That place gets rocked with snow.  Even in poor years.  I went up there in March 2006 and even in that craptacular year there was good snow up there.

[PhineasC]

18 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

I’ve often searched the topo maps and real estate listings to find the weeniest snow spots in New England. 

One of my most underrated is the highlands east and northeast of Diamond Pond in Coos county NH. The Diamond Pond coop itself was only around for like 10 years or so but they averaged like 230” of snow. Yet there is more favorable privately owned terrain to their east and northeast. Some of those spots must be between 250-300”. Not much of anything out there either including ski resorts (the failed Balsams not withstanding), lol. It’s gorgeous country though.

 

Down here in the tropics we look at ORH the same way. LOL do snow weenies in NH look at properties above the Arctic Circle and dream?

[mreaves]

2 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Down here in the tropics we look at ORH the same way. LOL do snow weenies in NH look at properties above the Arctic Circle and dream?

The Chic Chocs Mts. in Quebec and Labrador