Land Purchase

[Angus]

The prices along the lake are crazy. A few years back, when Saddleback went up for sale initially, I was speaking to someone - who I believe might have been considering a bid - and they described Rangeley as Maine's only four season resort town between the lake and mountain. South of the height of land on RT.17 is desolate. I think there is property that can be purchased along lower Richardson lake but winter access I believe would not be viable without a snow mobile. RT 17 use to be in horrible condition but I think I've been told it has been improved substantially - I probably haven't driven it in a decade.

[PhineasC]

9 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah then you need to be way up north in Coos county in the upslope region near Pittsburg which is far from ski resorts...unless you get lucky and find a big plot in the high terrain of Jackson NH just south of wildcat/Mt Washington (just north of North Conway NH)....might be hard to get 30+ acres there though but there could be a couple opportunities. I’ve occasionally seen bigger plots there before for sale. The further north in Jackson the better...you want to be as close to Pinkham notch as possible. They avg around 150”...and the views of Presidentials would probably be sick. 

Otherwise you might as well just do Rangeley area which is further northeast but way more uniform in big snow and snow retention. You don’t have to study that area with an electron microscope to worry about snowfall averages. You’re talking big time snow or bigger time snow with each 5-10 mile grid point. 

Like mentioned further upthread, if you are worried about the viability of Saddleback’s relaunch (valid concern, but this new ownership seems legit), then you could hedge and go maybe halfway between Rangeley and Sunday River. Lots of plots in that zone and probably dirt cheap. You would be about 45 min to each mountain...maybe not ideal. But still really good snow. The other option is if you want to head even further to Sugarloaf area around the carrabassett valley ...exceptionally reliable snow but you are getting really far northeast.

 If you start hedging back closer to Sunday River then you will sacrifice some snow because you lose a lot of elevation from Rangeley. Unless you stay a little bit north of Sunday River where 1000 feet is easier to maintain. You’ll still do well even right in Newry/Bethel in the 500-700 foot elevation range, but prob like 100” type average. The retention is absolutely excellent there but still nothing like Rangeley. Up there you’re getting 130-170 with sick retention...it’s a different level...so it would probably “feel” like getting 250”+ in Garrett county or Davis WV because of the layers of snow just stacking up and not melting. A horse shit winter in Rangeley would feel like a great winter in ORH. You have a really nice floor there. Maybe just a handful of seasons even under 90”.

This post is getting a bit lengthy so I’ll try and be quick on this last point. You can get that similar (or even better) snowfall climo on the spine of the greens. The difference is you’ll likely pay more and it’s a different vibe. Powderfreak and jspin are the resident experts on northern green mountain snowfall climo...but they will tell you that is definitely a spot where you need to take out your electron microscope to look at the terrain...maybe a bit hyperbolic but you get the point. They have insane snowfall gradients there. But the upslope there provides a very reliable snowfall climo. Even when I drove to jay peak a few winters ago late season in April, it was bare ground until I got maybe within 3-5 miles of the mountain going uphill and then it just exploded. Right near the mountain gets buried but 7 miles away can just be “meh” in terms of big time snows...you might get 225-250 near the base of jay but then get half that a few miles away. Nothing wrong with 125 but if I’m gonna get 125, then I want the retention of somewhere like Rangeley or Pinkham notch NH. That doesn’t happen at 1000 feet in Jay VT. Quite different from the mountain base elevation of 1800+ with the added proximity of upslope terrain assist. 

Oh well that last part went too long too, but there’s a lot to say when it comes to snowfall, snowfall retention, proximity to ski resorts, etc. 

There’s one last sneaky spot you could consider for a larger plot. Southern VT near Woodford VT or Searsburg. We have a poster there named wxmanMitch. Crazy snow climo there because it’s like a 2000-2500 foot plateau nestled in the southern greens. They prob average 150-175 minimum (might be approaching 200 when over 2300-2400 feet) and it never melts. Hard to say for sure...Mitch said it was horrific this year and he has like 133”. Not that far from either Mt snow or Stratton...prob like half an hour. 

I appreciate the detail. Found some good properties around Wardsboro, VT, seems close to Stratton and Mt. Snow. I've never skied at either place so I would need to check it out. Good spot for snow? Maine is great but such a huge hike. With NH I can drive it or fly into Manchester and drive a little further. VT is an easy drive for us. Maine takes forever.

[wxeyeNH]

11 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

New Hampshire has some gorgeous spots but property taxes are huge there. Not ideal if you don’t have residence to take advantage of the 0% state income tax. They have no sales tax either so they make up some of the revenue through property taxes. But Gene (wxeyeNH who posted above) may have some better info on which towns have lower property taxes so you can still find some decent deals. 

Personally for NH, if I’m looking for 30+ acres, then I’m prob looking not too far from where Gene is southwest of the whites. Good views and reasonable prices. Not too far from several ski mountains and not too far from lakes in the summer. I like way up north too up in Coos county but you risk getting too far from ski areas if you get more than 10-20 miles north of Gorham. Wildcat is the furthest north there. You’ll be hard pressed to find a 30+ acre plot right in the whites since there’s so much national forest there. A problem you don’t see in western Maine too much. 

My town of Bridgewater has mostly dirt roads and very low taxes.  Acess to a clean swimable NH lake was also important to me. Although I "only" average 80-85" of snow my retention is good because of cold air damning.  Very rare to have bare ground in December through March.  It's a balance of what you want in life, just snow and sking or closer to civilization.   For me I lucked out picking this 15 acre plot.

My other advice is to wait until we know how this pandemic works out.  With sky rocketing unemployment land and home prices might plummet up here.

[ORH_wxman]

32 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I appreciate the detail. Found some good properties around Wardsboro, VT, seems close to Stratton and Mt. Snow. I've never skied at either place so I would need to check it out. Good spot for snow? Maine is great but such a huge hike. With NH I can drive it or fly into Manchester and drive a little further. VT is an easy drive for us. Maine takes forever.

Yeah Wardsboro is pretty solid for snow. Not quite as good as up on the 2200+ foot plateau a bit southwest in Searsburg/Woodford, but you’re prob pulling 120+ in Wardsboro with very good retention assuming you aren’t in the lowest spots on northeast side of town in the river valley. I know Stratton averages like 175ish up on the mountain and you’re really close to there in Wardsboro. The further west in town, I’d think the better....the town sort of slopes down in elevation the further east you are. Though there is another high area just southeast of the center of town.

Maybe some other southern Vermonters can chime in. 

As for Stratton and Mt Snow, they both have solid terrain...not quite as good as some of bigger mountains up north but they are still very good. Only drawback is you get a pretty high influx of New Yorkers during the peak season so on average you’ll battle more crowds than further north mountains. That’s to be expected though...with easier access comes more people. But if you take a random set of weekdays in mid-winter, you’ll still have pretty empty conditions. 

[GCWarrior]

That area of Vermont is awesome.  I'm not a southern vermont guy but I live about 10 mins from the border.  I can tell you as far as snowfall goes we get about 60ish inches here in the valley and some place up in Vermont get 175" Stratton and Mount Snow are not places I would ski on the weekend but they are great midweek.  Magic is where I would go on the weekend.  From Wardsboro area it's not far.  They don't get the same snow as Stratton, probably around 120" but they have some serious terrain and a great bar vibe if you are into that sort of thing. Some winters southern vermont gets pounded, these are usually years when SNE gets pounded.  2011, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018 come to mind over the last 10 or so years.   

If you are into ski touring than southern vermont is a fantastic place to be.  Dutch hill, Prospect mountain, Hogback all provide some great skiing on old NELSAP trails, often creating perfect glades.  If the snow is good there are plenty of other bc spots with decent access.  I have skied the wind farm in searsburg off route 8 in 2011.  There are a couple nice power lines you can ski on or near the MA/VT border.  

[powderfreak]

On 4/2/2020 at 9:36 PM, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah my top two choices would be W Maine fairly close to Sunday river, Saddleback, or Sugarloaf...or N VT somewhere on or near the spine.  Rangeley Maine up by Saddleback is a beautiful area in the summer too with the lakes there. With Saddleback having been closed for 5 years (now about to reopen with new ownership), their real estate definitely took a hit so you can probably find some bargains up there.

If you like the more rugged rural feel, then Maine would be the choice...and it’s probably cheaper in most cases. N VT is plenty rural too but they definitely have more of the “quaint New England village” feel in many of their ski towns...so if you are looking for that too, then go with N VT. Up near Jay peak will be cheaper than Stowe and near Sugarbush, though the latter two are easier access and have more ski apres in their towns. 

 

Hit the nail on the head. 

Im just seeing this thread but that pretty much sums it up IMO.  

Up here for 30+ acres I’d go somewhere in that graphic that mreaves put up.  

Just east of the Spine into the Northeast Kingdom gets a lot of snow, with many of the CoCoRAHS spots where people live recording some pretty enviable snow/depth combos.   Maine has that far out feel though and better retention for the most part with more QPF heavy snow when it falls.

I’m biased but in terms of true skiing conditions, Sunday River has great snowmaking but I do believe the northern Greens have better overall surface conditions and more “powder days” per season due to the snow squall aspect....the random 8-10” fluffers and even daily 2-3” really go a long way into conditions.  Especially behind rainers and cutters, the slopes can refresh themselves naturally pretty quick with a variety of ways on any westerly flow...from Lake Ontario or just cyclonic upslope, etc.  

Get a big rainer followed by a freeze, a 4-6” refresher at Bolton/Stowe/Smuggs/Jay goes a long way in helping the conditions the day after...even if it’s fluffy snow, groom it and it definitely takes the edge off.  I know JSpin is big on that aspect but it does make a difference in daily surface conditions.  

Now we also miss the Sugarloaf two footers from a coastal storm but day in and day out for skiing conditions, it does seem to help to get more frequent snows....like a natural snowmaking system.  That effect seems to decrease considerably south of I-89 and really drops off south of Sugarbush.

[tamarack]

2 hours ago, Angus said:

The prices along the lake are crazy. A few years back, when Saddleback went up for sale initially, I was speaking to someone - who I believe might have been considering a bid - and they described Rangeley as Maine's only four season resort town between the lake and mountain. South of the height of land on RT.17 is desolate. I think there is property that can be purchased along lower Richardson lake but winter access I believe would not be viable without a snow mobile. RT 17 use to be in horrible condition but I think I've been told it has been improved substantially - I probably haven't driven it in a decade.

If Seven Islands has timber harvesting on C-Town or we (Maine Bureau of Parks and Lands) have a job on the lower half of Richardsontown, the South Arm Road will be plowed all winter, otherwise it's a sled trail.  The downside of it being plowed is that you WILL meet logging trucks and the road isn't all that straight, or wide. 

[uncletim]

4 hours ago, Angus said:

The prices along the lake are crazy. A few years back, when Saddleback went up for sale initially, I was speaking to someone - who I believe might have been considering a bid - and they described Rangeley as Maine's only four season resort town between the lake and mountain. South of the height of land on RT.17 is desolate. I think there is property that can be purchased along lower Richardson lake but winter access I believe would not be viable without a snow mobile. RT 17 use to be in horrible condition but I think I've been told it has been improved substantially - I probably haven't driven it in a decade.

It's anyone's guess what happens to the real estate prices over the next few months, but historically Rangeley waterfront prices tend to correspond to the size of the lake. Rangeley Lake and especially Mooselook (the Oquossoc shore of Mooselook is referred to as the "gold coast") are very expensive, but prices on any of the many smaller lakes and ponds tend to be much lower.

[PhineasC]

2 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Hit the nail on the head. 

Im just seeing this thread but that pretty much sums it up IMO.  

Up here for 30+ acres I’d go somewhere in that graphic that mreaves put up.  

Just east of the Spine into the Northeast Kingdom gets a lot of snow, with many of the CoCoRAHS spots where people live recording some pretty enviable snow/depth combos.   Maine has that far out feel though and better retention for the most part with more QPF heavy snow when it falls.

I’m biased but in terms of true skiing conditions, Sunday River has great snowmaking but I do believe the northern Greens have better overall surface conditions and more “powder days” per season due to the snow squall aspect....the random 8-10” fluffers and even daily 2-3” really go a long way into conditions.  Especially behind rainers and cutters, the slopes can refresh themselves naturally pretty quick with a variety of ways on any westerly flow...from Lake Ontario or just cyclonic upslope, etc.  

Get a big rainer followed by a freeze, a 4-6” refresher at Bolton/Stowe/Smuggs/Jay goes a long way in helping the conditions the day after...even if it’s fluffy snow, groom it and it definitely takes the edge off.  I know JSpin is big on that aspect but it does make a difference in daily surface conditions.  

Now we also miss the Sugarloaf two footers from a coastal storm but day in and day out for skiing conditions, it does seem to help to get more frequent snows....like a natural snowmaking system.  That effect seems to decrease considerably south of I-89 and really drops off south of Sugarbush.

Would Montgomery be decent?

[powderfreak]

17 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Would Montgomery be decent?

Probably one of the snowiest spots in Vermont depending on elevation.

I’ve heard Westfield is a tad snowier (next Town east) but Montgomery is game on.  

Westfield CoCoRAHS had 125” of snow this year with a max depth of 30.5” and that’s a pretty bad winter.  

Last winter they did 181.2”. 

They get a ton of precipitation from the mtns around Jay Peak.

[PhineasC]

9 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Probably one of the snowiest spots in Vermont depending on elevation.

I’ve heard Westfield is a tad snowier (next Town east) but Montgomery is game on.  

Westfield CoCoRAHS had 125” of snow this year with a max depth of 30.5” and that’s a pretty bad winter.  

Last winter they did 181.2”. 

They get a ton of precipitation from the mtns around Jay Peak.

Great, closing in on a nice lot there. I've never skied Jay Peak but I have heard great things. Plus access to Montreal which is nice for us.

[powderfreak]

8 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Great, closing in on a nice lot there. I've never skied Jay Peak but I have heard great things. Plus access to Montreal which is nice for us.

I love Montreal.... we go a couple times a year and also take almost our flights out of there.  30% cheaper and 2hrs from where I am... you could easily do day trips from Montgomery.  

Its fun to take a little drive and all the sudden everything is in French and it definitely has a cool vibe in Montreal.  

[mreaves]

I’ll second what PF said about Montreal. Love that city. My last trip there a couple of weeks ago had to be canceled unfortunately.  It’s a great city in winter and it really comes alive in summer. There are festivals almost every weekend and lots of parks and stuff to do outside. Montgomery is a cute little town. One of the stores in the village has an old fashioned soda fountain in it but I’m not sure if it’s still open. I did a little snowmobiling in that area this winter. As PF noted, it wasn’t a great winter but there was still plenty of snow there. 

[ORH_wxman]

Yeah the terrain forms like a big horseshoe around Montgomery. They probably get absolutely annihilated in somewhat blocked flow events. 

[alex]

23 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

New Hampshire has some gorgeous spots but property taxes are huge there. Not ideal if you don’t have residence to take advantage of the 0% state income tax. They have no sales tax either so they make up some of the revenue through property taxes. But Gene (wxeyeNH who posted above) may have some better info on which towns have lower property taxes so you can still find some decent deals. 

Personally for NH, if I’m looking for 30+ acres, then I’m prob looking not too far from where Gene is southwest of the whites. Good views and reasonable prices. Not too far from several ski mountains and not too far from lakes in the summer. I like way up north too up in Coos county but you risk getting too far from ski areas if you get more than 10-20 miles north of Gorham. Wildcat is the furthest north there. You’ll be hard pressed to find a 30+ acre plot right in the whites since there’s so much national forest there. A problem you don’t see in western Maine too much. 

If you are lucky you CAN snatch a large lot in the Whites. Mine is 32 acres right in Bretton Woods and was cheaper than most houses in Winchester Mass where I used to live 

[PhineasC]

25 minutes ago, alex said:

If you are lucky you CAN snatch a large lot in the Whites. Mine is 32 acres right in Bretton Woods and was cheaper than most houses in Winchester Mass where I used to live 

I'd love to be there but not seeing anything like that at the moment. Bunch of large lots about 30 mins away in Whiteford. Also some in Bethlehem.

[bch2014]

3 hours ago, PhineasC said:

I'd love to be there but not seeing anything like that at the moment. Bunch of large lots about 30 mins away in Whiteford. Also some in Bethlehem.

Whitefield (what I assume you’re referring to)-Too much of a snow hole close to the river.

[PhineasC]

6 hours ago, bch2014 said:

Whitefield (what I assume you’re referring to)-Too much of a snow hole close to the river.

Yes that’s what I meant. ORH told me the same thing. Plenty of land there though. What are your thoughts on Bethlehem? Same deal?

[ORH_wxman]

37 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Yes that’s what I meant. ORH told me the same thing. Plenty of land there though. What are your thoughts on Bethlehem? Same deal?

Same deal as whitefield, maybe slightly better, unless you are far enough east to be getting right near Bretton woods. It’s actually amazing sometimes driving from Franconia notch right near Cannon where it might be buried to almost nothing within 5 miles just to the north of the notch. 

Its not always like that but it’s frequent enough that you’ll feel the frustration. 

[STILL N OF PIKE]

Anything near Jay peak is ratter proof  

[ORH_wxman]

4 minutes ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

Anything near Jay peak is ratter proof  

Well let’s specify “near”...you could be like 15 miles west near Franklin and get screwed lol. 

But yeah, Montgomery would be excellent. 

[PhineasC]

22 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Well let’s specify “near”...you could be like 15 miles west near Franklin and get screwed lol. 

But yeah, Montgomery would be excellent. 

Yeah, I am trying to secure something there. Also looking at southern Vermont near Stratton (e.g., Jamaica, VT) if a good location in NH doesn't work out. That's an easier drive too, but worried about proximity to Albany and NY'ers... Also massholes too of course LOL

[ORH_wxman]

47 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Yeah, I am trying to secure something there. Also looking at southern Vermont near Stratton (e.g., Jamaica, VT) if a good location in NH doesn't work out. That's an easier drive too, but worried about proximity to Albany and NY'ers... Also massholes too of course LOL

Yeah as a general rule:

NH ski areas closer to I-93 = more Massholes

VT areas closer to I-87 in eastern NY = more New Yorkers. 

 

Jay peak is so far north you kind of get a mix plus a lot of Canadians. But it is generally not that crowded outside the absolute worst peak times (MLK weekend, Presidents Day, etc). Obviously a tougher drive from down south but if you fly into BTV it’s not that far. 

 

[PhineasC]

23 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah as a general rule:

NH ski areas closer to I-93 = more Massholes

VT areas closer to I-87 in eastern NY = more New Yorkers. 

 

Jay peak is so far north you kind of get a mix plus a lot of Canadians. But it is generally not that crowded outside the absolute worst peak times (MLK weekend, Presidents Day, etc). Obviously a tougher drive from down south but if you fly into BTV it’s not that far. 

 

Turns out BWI doesn't go to BTV. Not at the moment, at least. I swear in the past I have seen flights.  

BWI does go to Albany and a quick ride into VT. How would Bennington be climate-wise?

BWI also goes to Portland, which opens up Maine a bit. Trying to determine the best spot to be within 45-60 mins of Portland.

[ORH_wxman]

8 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Turns out BWI doesn't go to BTV. Not at the moment, at least. I swear in the past I have seen flights.  

BWI does go to Albany and a quick ride into VT. How would Bennington be climate-wise?

BWI also goes to Portland, which opens up Maine a bit. Trying to determine the best spot to be within 45-60 mins of Portland.

Bennington is a bad snow hole. You’d want to be east of them up in the Woodford/Searsburg region...which is actually very close...just a 15 min jaunt east on rt 9. Very big snowfall gradient there. 

As for Portland. You’re prob gonna want something a bit south of Sunday River. You can get to towns like Waterford, Stoneham, Lovell, Sweden in less than an hour and from there you are only like 25-30 min to Sunday River or maybe 10 min to Shawnee Peak. You won’t get the 200” snowfall totals there like Montgomery Vt or even Woodford VT, but they do have probably some of the best retention in New England outside of those 2500 foot elevations. A 100” winter there which is pretty normal will feel like 150-160 in some other places that don’t retain quite as well. 

[bch2014]

12 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Turns out BWI doesn't go to BTV. Not at the moment, at least. I swear in the past I have seen flights.  

BWI does go to Albany and a quick ride into VT. How would Bennington be climate-wise?

BWI also goes to Portland, which opens up Maine a bit. Trying to determine the best spot to be within 45-60 mins of Portland.

Bennington isn't great for snow... Sandwiched between the Green Mountains and the Adirondacks and pretty low elevation.

Best area within an hour of PWM would be something around Bridgton. There are some nice lakes around there and you've got a smaller ski area (Shawnee Peak).

[PhineasC]

6 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Bennington is a bad snow hole. You’d want to be east of them up in the Woodford/Searsburg region...which is actually very close...just a 15 min jaunt east on rt 9. Very big snowfall gradient there. 

As for Portland. You’re prob gonna want something a bit south of Sunday River. You can get to towns like Waterford, Stoneham, Lovell, Sweden in less than an hour and from there you are only like 25-30 min to Sunday River or maybe 10 min to Shawnee Peak. You won’t get the 200” snowfall totals there like Montgomery Vt or even Woodford VT, but they do have probably some of the best retention in New England outside of those 2500 foot elevations. A 100” winter there which is pretty normal will feel like 150-160 in some other places that don’t retain quite as well. 

Jamaica VT seems like it’s a good spot. I found something nice there. 

[ORH_wxman]

33 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Jamaica VT seems like it’s a good spot. I found something nice there. 

Yeah Jamaica is right next to Stratton. Good spot there. Great combo of annual snowfall and retention and proximity to ski areas. 

[backedgeapproaching]

58 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Jamaica VT seems like it’s a good spot. I found something nice there. 

What's the elevation of the plot?  I think the town center is only like 700-800', but it goes up quickly heading towards Stratton.  Retention will be really good there, maybe not MW Maine good, but still impressive given the Latitude and longitude.  Its a good spot for any coastal type of storm or any E/SE flow event--which most synoptic events are.  You will lose some upslope component as you are starting to get further away from the Spine in Jamaica, again depending on where exactly it is.  If your near town center or east of there, snowfall totals would drop off compared the west side heading up in elevation.

But if you are looking for 20-30 acres and cutting down your driving distance, than options get limited a bit.  It's a good spot, you can cherry pick better ones in SVT if you had no acreage limitations, etc.  Jamaica is is really nice spot distance wise from Stratton and Magic..and even Mt Snow to the south.

 

 

[backedgeapproaching]

1 hour ago, PhineasC said:

Turns out BWI doesn't go to BTV. Not at the moment, at least. I swear in the past I have seen flights.  

BWI does go to Albany and a quick ride into VT. How would Bennington be climate-wise?

BWI also goes to Portland, which opens up Maine a bit. Trying to determine the best spot to be within 45-60 mins of Portland.

 Good thing to know the right people to ask before putting a down payment on some land in Bennington.  You would trying to unload that after 1 winter...lol