Land Purchase

[PhineasC]

Looking to buy 30+ acres in NNE. 

What would be a good general area to search, proximity to a ski place is a must. Otherwise, not many requirements. Big snow, too, obviously!

[mreaves]

Somewhere between Stowe and Jay Peak in VT

[backedgeapproaching]

21 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Looking to buy 30+ acres in NNE. 

What would be a good general area to search, proximity to a ski place is a must. Otherwise, not many requirements. Big snow, too, obviously!

 

 

[bch2014]

Maine will likely have the cheapest and most rural land but has less "charm" than the villages of VT... Something up by Sugarloaf and Saddleback (soon to reopen)... Also can get property on a lake up there which is always nice for summer fun.

It doesn't get quite as much snow as Northern VT, but it's far better in terms of retention. 

 

[PhineasC]

1 hour ago, backedgeapproaching said:

 

 

Thanks, a lot to digest there.

[dryslot]

2 hours ago, bch2014 said:

Maine will likely have the cheapest and most rural land but has less "charm" than the villages of VT... Something up by Sugarloaf and Saddleback (soon to reopen)... Also can get property on a lake up there which is always nice for summer fun.

It doesn't get quite as much snow as Northern VT, but it's far better in terms of retention. 

 

lol, There are places here that get as much as VT, Nobody there to measure and more rural with less of the flatlanders but i snowmobile those areas, And the retention is great.

[Angus]

If you are a Nordic skier as well as a alpine, look around Craftsbury.

[ORH_wxman]

Yeah my top two choices would be W Maine fairly close to Sunday river, Saddleback, or Sugarloaf...or N VT somewhere on or near the spine.  Rangeley Maine up by Saddleback is a beautiful area in the summer too with the lakes there. With Saddleback having been closed for 5 years (now about to reopen with new ownership), their real estate definitely took a hit so you can probably find some bargains up there.

If you like the more rugged rural feel, then Maine would be the choice...and it’s probably cheaper in most cases. N VT is plenty rural too but they definitely have more of the “quaint New England village” feel in many of their ski towns...so if you are looking for that too, then go with N VT. Up near Jay peak will be cheaper than Stowe and near Sugarbush, though the latter two are easier access and have more ski apres in their towns. 

 

[Dan76]

Anyone else think the price of rural land will go up after the dust settles?

[ORH_wxman]

1 minute ago, Dan76 said:

Anyone else think the price of rural land will go up after the dust settles?

Meh probably not. Real estate is gonna be struggling as many will have financial trouble in the fallout. You might find a lot of vacation homes being dumped because people can’t afford the mortgage on a second home. 

[PhineasC]

1 hour ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah my top two choices would be W Maine fairly close to Sunday river, Saddleback, or Sugarloaf...or N VT somewhere on or near the spine.  Rangeley Maine up by Saddleback is a beautiful area in the summer too with the lakes there. With Saddleback having been closed for 5 years (now about to reopen with new ownership), their real estate definitely took a hit so you can probably find some bargains up there.

If you like the more rugged rural feel, then Maine would be the choice...and it’s probably cheaper in most cases. N VT is plenty rural too but they definitely have more of the “quaint New England village” feel in many of their ski towns...so if you are looking for that too, then go with N VT. Up near Jay peak will be cheaper than Stowe and near Sugarbush, though the latter two are easier access and have more ski apres in their towns. 

 

Thanks man, I was hoping you'd weigh in. You always have the pulse.

[PhineasC]

1 hour ago, Dan76 said:

Anyone else think the price of rural land will go up after the dust settles?

I have found prices are already tanking. I am fortunate that my business is one of the few thriving right now, so I have some cash to spend. We have been looking at properties in Italy too. Prices are diving there, obviously. But too much risk to buy sight-unseen.

[STILL N OF PIKE]

8 hours ago, Dan76 said:

Anyone else think the price of rural land will go up after the dust settles?

Umm down . Big time 

[STILL N OF PIKE]

7 hours ago, PhineasC said:

I have found prices are already tanking. I am fortunate that my business is one of the few thriving right now, so I have some cash to spend. We have been looking at properties in Italy too. Prices are diving there, obviously. But too much risk to buy sight-unseen.

Prices are going to continue to crater and the longer this “work break “ lasts the more extreme the discounts will be. Many are circling licking their chops just waiting . Some multi nationals may even chime in and say “let’s wait longer for people’s safety “ 

If you go in Vermont you need to be very particular about location to Spine (even more than elevation) but the latter is important .

Bolton valley has condos at 2200’ on the spine . They see over 250” a year easily 

W Maine is boonies ...just realize that . Near mountain destinations is still boonies there ..you would want to get as close to 1500’ elevation as you could and they are smoked well into April many years . Saddleback is prime 

[ORH_wxman]

1 hour ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

Prices are going to continue to crater and the longer this “work break “ lasts the more extreme the discounts will be. Many are circling licking their chops just waiting . Some multi nationals may even chime in and say “let’s wait longer for people’s safety “ 

If you go in Vermont you need to be very particular about location to Spine (even more than elevation) but the latter is important .

Bolton valley has condos at 2200’ on the spine . They see over 250” a year easily 

W Maine is boonies ...just realize that . Near mountain destinations is still boonies there ..you would want to get as close to 1500’ elevation as you could and they are smoked well into April many years . Saddleback is prime 

Yeah if you are going to be very particular about snowfall then you have to be much more selective in N VT. If you are like 10 miles too far east or west of the spine, your snowfall decreases massively. 

You are absolutely correct Maine is definitely more Boonies...though Rangeley is not bad. It has some restaurants and stores. Very close to Saddleback and Rangeley itself is mostly 1500-1800 feet elevation so you aren’t giving away a ton of winter climate compared to the base of the mountain. If you get a plot just outside town in Dallas Plantation the elevations are frequently above 2000 feet. If you are looking for winter lasting into like late April and early May, that’s the spot. That whole area often has winter snow pack still ya gong around into mid spring. The views of Rangeley lake and Mooselookmeguntic lake around that area are incredible. 

If you are worried about drive time from the south though then Maine is going to be a lot longer. N VT much easier to travel to from the Mid-Atlantic. You are also like an hour or less to BTV in most spots up there if you want access to a real town/city. N VT also has that quaint New England feel some of us already mentioned. You drove through a lot of the small towns with covered bridges and farms with rolling hills up there when you aren’t right on the spine. 

[Dan76]

5 hours ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

Prices are going to continue to crater and the longer this “work break “ lasts the more extreme the discounts will be. Many are circling licking their chops just waiting . Some multi nationals may even chime in and say “let’s wait longer for people’s safety “ 

If you go in Vermont you need to be very particular about location to Spine (even more than elevation) but the latter is important .

Bolton valley has condos at 2200’ on the spine . They see over 250” a year easily 

W Maine is boonies ...just realize that . Near mountain destinations is still boonies there ..you would want to get as close to 1500’ elevation as you could and they are smoked well into April many years . Saddleback is prime 

 Rangeley would do it for me. Been to SL a couple of times only thing is better like cold.

[GCWarrior]

Western Maine is where you should buy land if you are looking for that much.   30 acres even near Jay Peak is going to be a lot more than Maine.  Plus with Saddleback up and running next Rangeley will be a be really happening place.  All ready a big destination for sled necks they get some good comedy acts and bands.  Also there are some decent restaurants and bars in town.  NVT is fine but there isn't much up there.  The closer you get to burlington, waterbury, stowe the more expensive it gets.  Saddleback has the best snowpack retention in New England.  You could go there right now in this down winter and ski 100% of the mountain on natural snow without a problem.  

[Ginx snewx]

13 hours ago, PhineasC said:

Thanks man, I was hoping you'd weigh in. You always have the pulse.

Definitely Western Maine near Bethel Maine. You have Sunday River, Mt Abrams, Wildcat all within an hour

[wxeyeNH]

This topic comes up from time to time on the boards and I respond to each time it does...

I made this exact decision back in 1989 when I lived in Boston.  I wanted a fixer upper with land and a view up in the mountains.   As a skier and a snow lover I looked all over NNE.   I needed some balance between weather but social activities and even medical care.  Living far away in a rural area has some downsides.   

I found my place in the foothills of the White Mountains of NH.  In a low tax town of 1000 people called Bridgewater NH.   I'm high on a hill at a elevation of 1100 feet.  Plenty of snow (over 80")  but only 13 miles from interstate 93 so I can be in Boston in 2 hours for everything a city has to offer.  So for me it was a balance of services, taxs, weather, skiing, shopping and medical.  Also make sure you have wifi access.  Much of NNE does not.

Good Luck

[uncletim]

I chimed in years ago on the Radders thread referenced above with our experience buying in Rangeley, and my thoughts remain the same. We've never regretted it. I've kept a watch out for places that might be "better" and I haven't seen one. I will say that while I'm hoping that Saddleback will be with us for many years to come, I think given its troubled history I wouldn't necessarily depend on it. It's great to see actual lift work going on!

[ORH_wxman]

2 hours ago, uncletim said:

I chimed in years ago on the Radders thread referenced above with our experience buying in Rangeley, and my thoughts remain the same. We've never regretted it. I've kept a watch out for places that might be "better" and I haven't seen one. I will say that while I'm hoping that Saddleback will be with us for many years to come, I think given its troubled history I wouldn't necessarily depend on it. It's great to see actual lift work going on!

Saddleback has such badass terrain I think it should stay open if run efficiently. There will be people to ski there. But yeah, there’s some risk still. Rangeley is gorgeous in the summer at least if winter skiing kind of craps out. Sunday River is about, what, 90 min south of Rangeley? 

Could always hedge and get something a little south of Rangeley so that the drive to SR isn’t that far. There’s tons of beautiful land between the two. 

[Torch Tiger]

On 4/2/2020 at 5:46 PM, PhineasC said:

Looking to buy 30+ acres in NNE. 

What would be a good general area to search, proximity to a ski place is a must. Otherwise, not many requirements. Big snow, too, obviously!

No interest in the 'dacks? Not my cup of tea, but..

https://www.trulia.com/property/5064472933-0-Bell-Meadow-Way-5-Keene-NY-12942

[PhineasC]

13 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah if you are going to be very particular about snowfall then you have to be much more selective in N VT. If you are like 10 miles too far east or west of the spine, your snowfall decreases massively. 

You are absolutely correct Maine is definitely more Boonies...though Rangeley is not bad. It has some restaurants and stores. Very close to Saddleback and Rangeley itself is mostly 1500-1800 feet elevation so you aren’t giving away a ton of winter climate compared to the base of the mountain. If you get a plot just outside town in Dallas Plantation the elevations are frequently above 2000 feet. If you are looking for winter lasting into like late April and early May, that’s the spot. That whole area often has winter snow pack still ya gong around into mid spring. The views of Rangeley lake and Mooselookmeguntic lake around that area are incredible. 

If you are worried about drive time from the south though then Maine is going to be a lot longer. N VT much easier to travel to from the Mid-Atlantic. You are also like an hour or less to BTV in most spots up there if you want access to a real town/city. N VT also has that quaint New England feel some of us already mentioned. You drove through a lot of the small towns with covered bridges and farms with rolling hills up there when you aren’t right on the spine. 

What about New Hampshire?

[PhineasC]

50 minutes ago, Dr. Dews said:

No interest in the 'dacks? Not my cup of tea, but..

https://www.trulia.com/property/5064472933-0-Bell-Meadow-Way-5-Keene-NY-12942

I have never had any desire to have a place in NY state. Just a personal preference.

[ORH_wxman]

29 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

What about New Hampshire?

New Hampshire has some gorgeous spots but property taxes are huge there. Not ideal if you don’t have residence to take advantage of the 0% state income tax. They have no sales tax either so they make up some of the revenue through property taxes. But Gene (wxeyeNH who posted above) may have some better info on which towns have lower property taxes so you can still find some decent deals. 

Personally for NH, if I’m looking for 30+ acres, then I’m prob looking not too far from where Gene is southwest of the whites. Good views and reasonable prices. Not too far from several ski mountains and not too far from lakes in the summer. I like way up north too up in Coos county but you risk getting too far from ski areas if you get more than 10-20 miles north of Gorham. Wildcat is the furthest north there. You’ll be hard pressed to find a 30+ acre plot right in the whites since there’s so much national forest there. A problem you don’t see in western Maine too much. 

[PhineasC]

26 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

New Hampshire has some gorgeous spots but property taxes are huge there. Not ideal if you don’t have residence to take advantage of the 0% state income tax. They have no sales tax either so they make up some of the revenue through property taxes. But Gene (wxeyeNH who posted above) may have some better info on which towns have lower property taxes so you can still find some decent deals. 

Personally for NH, if I’m looking for 30+ acres, then I’m prob looking not too far from where Gene is southwest of the whites. Good views and reasonable prices. Not too far from several ski mountains and not too far from lakes in the summer. I like way up north too up in Coos county but you risk getting too far from ski areas if you get more than 10-20 miles north of Gorham. Wildcat is the furthest north there. You’ll be hard pressed to find a 30+ acre plot right in the whites since there’s so much national forest there. A problem you don’t see in western Maine too much. 

What about snow in NH? 80 inches a year seems kinda low. I get that in Garrett County (sometimes... this winter sucked ass). If I am making this switch I want it to be worth it.

[ORH_wxman]

25 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

What about snow in NH? 80 inches a year seems kinda low. I get that in Garrett County (sometimes... this winter sucked ass). If I am making this switch I want it to be worth it.

Yeah then you need to be way up north in Coos county in the upslope region near Pittsburg which is far from ski resorts...unless you get lucky and find a big plot in the high terrain of Jackson NH just south of wildcat/Mt Washington (just north of North Conway NH)....might be hard to get 30+ acres there though but there could be a couple opportunities. I’ve occasionally seen bigger plots there before for sale. The further north in Jackson the better...you want to be as close to Pinkham notch as possible. They avg around 150”...and the views of Presidentials would probably be sick. 

Otherwise you might as well just do Rangeley area which is further northeast but way more uniform in big snow and snow retention. You don’t have to study that area with an electron microscope to worry about snowfall averages. You’re talking big time snow or bigger time snow with each 5-10 mile grid point. 

Like mentioned further upthread, if you are worried about the viability of Saddleback’s relaunch (valid concern, but this new ownership seems legit), then you could hedge and go maybe halfway between Rangeley and Sunday River. Lots of plots in that zone and probably dirt cheap. You would be about 45 min to each mountain...maybe not ideal. But still really good snow. The other option is if you want to head even further to Sugarloaf area around the carrabassett valley ...exceptionally reliable snow but you are getting really far northeast.

 If you start hedging back closer to Sunday River then you will sacrifice some snow because you lose a lot of elevation from Rangeley. Unless you stay a little bit north of Sunday River where 1000 feet is easier to maintain. You’ll still do well even right in Newry/Bethel in the 500-700 foot elevation range, but prob like 100” type average. The retention is absolutely excellent there but still nothing like Rangeley. Up there you’re getting 130-170 with sick retention...it’s a different level...so it would probably “feel” like getting 250”+ in Garrett county or Davis WV because of the layers of snow just stacking up and not melting. A horse shit winter in Rangeley would feel like a great winter in ORH. You have a really nice floor there. Maybe just a handful of seasons even under 90”.

This post is getting a bit lengthy so I’ll try and be quick on this last point. You can get that similar (or even better) snowfall climo on the spine of the greens. The difference is you’ll likely pay more and it’s a different vibe. Powderfreak and jspin are the resident experts on northern green mountain snowfall climo...but they will tell you that is definitely a spot where you need to take out your electron microscope to look at the terrain...maybe a bit hyperbolic but you get the point. They have insane snowfall gradients there. But the upslope there provides a very reliable snowfall climo. Even when I drove to jay peak a few winters ago late season in April, it was bare ground until I got maybe within 3-5 miles of the mountain going uphill and then it just exploded. Right near the mountain gets buried but 7 miles away can just be “meh” in terms of big time snows...you might get 225-250 near the base of jay but then get half that a few miles away. Nothing wrong with 125 but if I’m gonna get 125, then I want the retention of somewhere like Rangeley or Pinkham notch NH. That doesn’t happen at 1000 feet in Jay VT. Quite different from the mountain base elevation of 1800+ with the added proximity of upslope terrain assist. 

Oh well that last part went too long too, but there’s a lot to say when it comes to snowfall, snowfall retention, proximity to ski resorts, etc. 

There’s one last sneaky spot you could consider for a larger plot. Southern VT near Woodford VT or Searsburg. We have a poster there named wxmanMitch. Crazy snow climo there because it’s like a 2000-2500 foot plateau nestled in the southern greens. They prob average 150-175 minimum (might be approaching 200 when over 2300-2400 feet) and it never melts. Hard to say for sure...Mitch said it was horrific this year and he has like 133”. Not that far from either Mt snow or Stratton...prob like half an hour. 

[uncletim]

Concur with all of this about Rangeley climate and snow retention. It's more different than might be expected for its thousand foot advantage over surrounding lowlands, both summer and winter. Unique topography in which the lakes sit in a huge elevated basin which reminds me a bit of the Yellowstone caldera, on a topo map at least. Makes for a very long winter and generally very pleasant summer. I think the closest comparison in the east might be Lake Placid;  Rangeley has the advantage in terms of the almost endless lakes while Placid has more spectacular mountain scenery and hiking.

A sleeper spot that is a much closer to "civilization" is the 2000 ft. bench east of Manchester, VT at the base of Bromley - the Winhall/Peru area. No shortage of skiing and the contrast between there and the valley would be fun to observe in winter.

2 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah then you need to be way up north in Coos county in the upslope region near Pittsburg which is far from ski resorts...unless you get lucky and find a big plot in the high terrain of Jackson NH just south of wildcat/Mt Washington (just north of North Conway NH)....might be hard to get 30+ acres there though but there could be a couple opportunities. I’ve occasionally seen bigger plots there before for sale. The further north in Jackson the better...you want to be as close to Pinkham notch as possible. They avg around 150”...and the views of Presidentials would probably be sick. 

Otherwise you might as well just do Rangeley area which is further northeast but way more uniform in big snow and snow retention. You don’t have to study that area with an electron microscope to worry about snowfall averages. You’re talking big time snow or bigger time snow with each 5-10 mile grid point. 

Like mentioned further upthread, if you are worried about the viability of Saddleback’s relaunch (valid concern, but this new ownership seems legit), then you could hedge and go maybe halfway between Rangeley and Sunday River. Lots of plots in that zone and probably dirt cheap. You would be about 45 min to each mountain...maybe not ideal. But still really good snow. The other option is if you want to head even further to Sugarloaf area around the carrabassett valley ...exceptionally reliable snow but you are getting really far northeast.

 If you start hedging back closer to Sunday River then you will sacrifice some snow because you lose a lot of elevation from Rangeley. Unless you stay a little bit north of Sunday River where 1000 feet is easier to maintain. You’ll still do well even right in Newry/Bethel in the 500-700 foot elevation range, but prob like 100” type average. The retention is absolutely excellent there but still nothing like Rangeley. Up there you’re getting 130-170 with sick retention...it’s a different level...so it would probably “feel” like getting 250”+ in Garrett county or Davis WV because of the layers of snow just stacking up and not melting. A horse shit winter in Rangeley would feel like a great winter in ORH. You have a really nice floor there. Maybe just a handful of seasons even under 90”.

This post is getting a bit lengthy so I’ll try and be quick on this last point. You can get that similar (or even better) snowfall climo on the spine of the greens. The difference is you’ll likely pay more and it’s a different vibe. Powderfreak and jspin are the resident experts on northern green mountain snowfall climo...but they will tell you that is definitely a spot where you need to take out your electron microscope to look at the terrain...maybe a bit hyperbolic but you get the point. They have insane snowfall gradients there. But the upslope there provides a very reliable snowfall climo. Even when I drove to jay peak a few winters ago late season in April, it was bare ground until I got maybe within 3-5 miles of the mountain going uphill and then it just exploded. Right near the mountain gets buried but 7 miles away can just be “meh” in terms of big time snows...you might get 225-250 near the base of jay but then get half that a few miles away. Nothing wrong with 125 but if I’m gonna get 125, then I want the retention of somewhere like Rangeley or Pinkham notch NH. That doesn’t happen at 1000 feet in Jay VT. Quite different from the mountain base elevation of 1800+ with the added proximity of upslope terrain assist. 

Oh well that last part went too long too, but there’s a lot to say when it comes to snowfall, snowfall retention, proximity to ski resorts, etc. 

There’s one last sneaky spot you could consider for a larger plot. Southern VT near Woodford VT or Searsburg. We have a poster there named wxmanMitch. Crazy snow climo there because it’s like a 2000-2500 foot plateau nestled in the southern greens. They prob average 150-175 minimum (might be approaching 200 when over 2300-2400 feet) and it never melts. Hard to say for sure...Mitch said it was horrific this year and he has like 133”. Not that far from either Mt snow or Stratton...prob like half an hour. 

 

[mreaves]

There are also some towns in VT away from the ski areas a bit but still get a ton of snow. Eden and Lowell are north of Stowe but south of Jay and get a ton of snow. Property values aren’t too out of whack. Same with towns like Woodbury, Danville and Walden. Walden used to have a well known weather camera at Cole’s Pond. That area gets and holds snow really well. Lot of places between 1500’-2000’. These towns are a little further from the ski areas, any where between 30 minutes and an hour but property prices reflect that. 

[tamarack]

12 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

Saddleback has such badass terrain I think it should stay open if run efficiently. There will be people to ski there. But yeah, there’s some risk still. Rangeley is gorgeous in the summer at least if winter skiing kind of craps out. Sunday River is about, what, 90 min south of Rangeley? 

Could always hedge and get something a little south of Rangeley so that the drive to SR isn’t that far. There’s tons of beautiful land between the two. 

Some place in Roxbury (between Rangeley and Rumford) might make sense.  For snow you would want to be up and away from Rt 17, the main road thru town.  That road gets above 2400' on D-Town and Rangeley Plantation but that's all commercial forest land and they're not about to sell 30 acres.  Where people live south of height of land (and its beautiful view from the turn-out) you could still find land above 1500' for triple-digit average snow.  If in Rangeley, look for something away from the lakes - prices there could crater by 50% and they would still be hideous.