Upstate NY Banter and General Discussion..

[vortmax]

39 minutes ago, cny rider said:

Honest question:  Have you ever walked into a room knowing that there was something in the room that could kill you, or the members of your family if you brought it home?

Like if you got overheated in your mask/shield/gown/gloves etc. and had a momentary lapse of judgement and wiped the sweat that was dripping down into your eyes?  Or didn't have a perfectly tight seal on your mask that you had worn for multiple days because there weren't any others, even though it was meant to be used for one day and discarded?

It was a new experience for me, for sure, around Christmas of last year.

It can make you look at things in a new light.

 

No, I have not, but this isn't Ebola either. I get the fear, but we've somehow lost some confidence in our body's ability to fight infection and to ward off disease - even post-vaccine. There needs to be balance and level-headedness - even now the CDC is recommending people don't visit family for the Holidays - FULLY vaccinated people. We're suggesting boosters when we should be shipping every single extra dose to poorer countries to prevent another Delta-creating variant outbreak (like India).

The CDC are also saying viral loads for Delta are the same in vaxxed vs. unvaxxed, yet they don't explain that viral load is measured in the nose, but the primary areas of  replication, shedding, and subsequent transmission of virus are aerosols through the mouth, originating in the oropharynx, throat, and lungs (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2196-x). We should be testing Covid in the aforementioned areas via a throat swab (like strep) or saliva (which is 99% accurate) to get a more comparable idea how much viral load is in both cases.

Much of the current fear is unnecessarily generated - and not scientific, in my non-professional opinion.

[cny rider]

2 hours ago, vortmax said:

No, I have not, but this isn't Ebola either. I get the fear, but we've somehow lost some confidence in our body's ability to fight infection and to ward off disease - even post-vaccine. There needs to be balance and level-headedness - even now the CDC is recommending people don't visit family for the Holidays - FULLY vaccinated people. We're suggesting boosters when we should be shipping every single extra dose to poorer countries to prevent another Delta-creating variant outbreak (like India).

The CDC are also saying viral loads for Delta are the same in vaxxed vs. unvaxxed, yet they don't explain that viral load is measured in the nose, but the primary areas of  replication, shedding, and subsequent transmission of virus are aerosols through the mouth, originating in the oropharynx, throat, and lungs (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2196-x). We should be testing Covid in the aforementioned areas via a throat swab (like strep) or saliva (which is 99% accurate) to get a more comparable idea how much viral load is in both cases.

Much of the current fear is unnecessarily generated - and not scientific, in my non-professional opinion.

We certainly agree on that CDC recommendation regarding the holidays.

Completely ridiculous and not grounded in reasonable risk/benefit analysis.

I've had 50 Thanksgivings and last year was the first I had without my mother.

It was tremendously depressing, but with no vaccines and my wife and I working in health care it was the right thing to do.

There's no way we are missing it this year.

 

[SouthBuffaloSteve]

8 hours ago, TugHillMatt said:

It just confuses how I couldn't possibly have gotten it from my wife considering we shared the same space for days before she showed symptoms. So, could I have had it last week, and my immune system took care of it..yielding the negative result?

Same thing happened to me.  Wife and daughter both caught it back in December.  Daughter was first to show symptoms and fever and came back positive.  Wife and myself got tested following day, I was negative she was positive.  She showed some mild symptoms 2 days after her positive test that last for maybe 5-6 days.  I took 4 more tests over the next 8 days, was negative every time and never felt a single symptom ever come on while I was stuck at home.  Took an antibody test maybe like 2-3 weeks later and it showed none detected so somehow I never became infected living in a small house with two covid positive family members.  Still slept in the same bed the whole time and just couldn't catch it.        

[TugHillMatt]

2 hours ago, SouthBuffaloSteve said:

Same thing happened to me.  Wife and daughter both caught it back in December.  Daughter was first to show symptoms and fever and came back positive.  Wife and myself got tested following day, I was negative she was positive.  She showed some mild symptoms 2 days after her positive test that last for maybe 5-6 days.  I took 4 more tests over the next 8 days, was negative every time and never felt a single symptom ever come on while I was stuck at home.  Took an antibody test maybe like 2-3 weeks later and it showed none detected so somehow I never became infected living in a small house with two covid positive family members.  Still slept in the same bed the whole time and just couldn't catch it.        

Wow, you slept in the same bed? I guess like you said..her symptoms were mild. Even then, I probably wouldn't have shared the same bed with my wife. I certainly couldn't imagine sleeping in the same room as her with what she's had. Makes me cringe...not the wife...but the wife WITH Covid.... haha

[TugHillMatt]

17 hours ago, cny rider said:

Talking to your obese patients, and prescribing cholesterol and hypertension meds are not mutually exclusive actions.

The big difference being of course that none of my smoker lung cancer patients have something transmissible that can kill me or my family members.

If people get vaccinated they are much less likely to need to come expose health care providers to a deadly virus.

The exodus of workers out of health care has just begun.

 

 

So I ran across this article in reference to who gets/got priority. Doesn't really seem very fair, considering "they made that choice" over people who didn't...

CDC prioritizes smokers for COVID vaccine. Health experts explain why. (usatoday.com)

[cny rider]

4 hours ago, TugHillMatt said:

So I ran across this article in reference to who gets/got priority. Doesn't really seem very fair, considering "they made that choice" over people who didn't...

CDC prioritizes smokers for COVID vaccine. Health experts explain why. (usatoday.com)

Agreed!

[vortmax]

I just read a headline that a hospital is refusing to provide a kidney transplant to an unvaxxed person.

Edit: Interesting, but doesn't the patient and donor have to sign waivers already? And what is the 'average' mortality rate of a non-Covid-19 contracted employee? 15% 19%? They never mention that.

A Colorado woman with stage 5 renal failure is scrambling to find a new hospital to perform a kidney transplant after a health system in the state denied the transplant due to her and her donor being unvaccinated against the coronavirus.

"Here I am, willing to be a direct donor to her. It does not affect any other patient on the transplant list," Jaimee Fougner, Leilani Lutali’s kidney donor, told CBS4. "How can I sit here and allow them to murder my friend when I’ve got a perfectly good kidney and can save her life?"

"For transplant patients who contract COVID-19, the mortality rate ranges from about 20% to more than 30%. This shows the extreme risk that COVID-19 poses to transplant recipients after their surgeries," the health system told CBS4. 

[TugHillMatt]

1 hour ago, vortmax said:

I just read a headline that a hospital is refusing to provide a kidney transplant to an unvaxxed person.

Edit: Interesting, but doesn't the patient and donor have to sign waivers already?

A Colorado woman with stage 5 renal failure is scrambling to find a new hospital to perform a kidney transplant after a health system in the state denied the transplant due to her and her donor being unvaccinated against the coronavirus.

"Here I am, willing to be a direct donor to her. It does not affect any other patient on the transplant list," Jaimee Fougner, Leilani Lutali’s kidney donor, told CBS4. "How can I sit here and allow them to murder my friend when I’ve got a perfectly good kidney and can save her life?"

"For transplant patients who contract COVID-19, the mortality rate ranges from about 20% to more than 30%. This shows the extreme risk that COVID-19 poses to transplant recipients after their surgeries," the health system told CBS4. 

So maddening. Stop the punishing of people... If patient is willing to RISK that increased chance, so be it. That's NOT the hospital's decision to make. The politics disgusts me.

[vortmax]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:43 AM, TugHillMatt said:

So maddening. Stop the punishing of people... If patient is willing to RISK that increased chance, so be it. That's NOT the hospital's decision to make. The politics disgusts me.

They don't even say what the increased risk is, above the 'baseline' risk % range. I just pulled the below off the NCBI.gov site.

"The mortality rate for related kidney recipients was 43 of 128 (34%). The mortality rate for patients who received a primary graft and at least one retransplant during the study period was 12 of 44 (27%). The mortality rate for diabetic patients was 11 of 22 (50%)."

And from upmc.com:

"The study found that long-term survival of kidney grafts has increased over time. For example, the five-year survival rate of kidneys from deceased donors increased from 66.2% in 1996–1999 to 78.2% in 2012–2015. Similarly, survival of those from living donors increased from 79.5% to 88.1% in the same period."

Sounds like they are just playing ambiguous numbers games as an excuse.

[Buckeyes_Suck]

1 hour ago, vortmax said:

They don't even say what the increased risk is. I just pulled the below off the NCBI.gov site.

"The mortality rate for related kidney recipients was 43 of 128 (34%). The mortality rate for patients who received a primary graft and at least one retransplant during the study period was 12 of 44 (27%). The mortality rate for diabetic patients was 11 of 22 (50%)."

And from upmc.com:

"The study found that long-term survival of kidney grafts has increased over time. For example, the five-year survival rate of kidneys from deceased donors increased from 66.2% in 1996–1999 to 78.2% in 2012–2015. Similarly, survival of those from living donors increased from 79.5% to 88.1% in the same period."

Sounds like they are just playing ambiguous numbers games as an excuse.

Based on that they should deny everyone with type 2 diabetes.

[BuffaloWeather]

This just got leaked. Look how much streamers make on twitch just on donations/subs the last 2 years. Not including sponsorships, youtube, social media, and contracts with twitch. This is how much you can make playing video games all day. These guys make more than professional athletes.

https://www.twitchearnings.com/

[TugHillMatt]

6 hours ago, BuffaloWeather said:

This just got leaked. Look how much streamers make on twitch just on donations/subs the last 2 years. Not including sponsorships, youtube, social media, and contracts with twitch. This is how much you can make playing video games all day. These guys make more than professional athletes.

https://www.twitchearnings.com/

I know it's your dream to make that kind of money showing your workouts, your hairy legs floating in the pool, and your snow videos on your YouTube channel....

[cny rider]

19 hours ago, TugHillMatt said:

So maddening. Stop the punishing of people... If patient is willing to RISK that increased chance, so be it. That's NOT the hospital's decision to make. The politics disgusts me.

What the hospital is doing is perfectly reasonable.

It's not the vaccinated who are politicizing this issue.

First remember the basics:  We are in the middle of a viral pandemic.

We have all been offered a vaccine that is safe, highly effective, and costs us nothing out of pocket.

Taking the vaccine lessens ones risk of severe illness and death.  It also benefits many other people, by reducing risk for the elderly and infirm and others who are not fully protected even with vaccination.

It also benefits society at large, as limiting outbreaks makes it more likely our kids are physically attending school, our businesses are open, and our hospitals are able to function.

You can spin that however you like but that's the bottom line with vaccination.

 

The decision not to take it calls ones judgement and decision making into question.  This is relevant when planning a highly complex medical intervention where strict adherence to a prescribed regimen, and good decision making are essential.

Second, specifically regarding the transplant:  The donor is not a big issue.  They can be screened, isolated, rechecked until the transplant team is confident they are Covid free.

The recipient is the issue.  They are going to have to have meticulous compliance with a complicated, involved post surgical care plan.

A major part of that care plan will be long term use of potent immunosuppressive medications.

So if they can't follow medical recommendations to get vaccinated before the procedure.....they are unlikely to generate an immune response even if vaccinated post procedure. They are also signaling an unwillingness to follow medical recommendations.

They then present an ongoing risk to themselves, their transplant team, and the other patients around them.

 

This is not unique to covid and kidney transplant.

If you want to have anti-obesity surgery you must be compliant with a prescribed medical regimen including weight loss before you will have surgery.

If you need a bone marrow transplant you have to demonstrate you can be compliant in the post-transplant period, including having a full time caregiver.  

If you cant do those things, you don't proceed.

 

 

 

 

 

[TugHillMatt]

45 minutes ago, cny rider said:

What the hospital is doing is perfectly reasonable.

It's not the vaccinated who are politicizing this issue.

First remember the basics:  We are in the middle of a viral pandemic.

We have all been offered a vaccine that is safe, highly effective, and costs us nothing out of pocket.

Taking the vaccine lessens ones risk of severe illness and death.  It also benefits many other people, by reducing risk for the elderly and infirm and others who are not fully protected even with vaccination.

It also benefits society at large, as limiting outbreaks makes it more likely our kids are physically attending school, our businesses are open, and our hospitals are able to function.

You can spin that however you like but that's the bottom line with vaccination.

 

The decision not to take it calls ones judgement and decision making into question.  This is relevant when planning a highly complex medical intervention where strict adherence to a prescribed regimen, and good decision making are essential.

Second, specifically regarding the transplant:  The donor is not a big issue.  They can be screened, isolated, rechecked until the transplant team is confident they are Covid free.

The recipient is the issue.  They are going to have to have meticulous compliance with a complicated, involved post surgical care plan.

A major part of that care plan will be long term use of potent immunosuppressive medications.

So if they can't follow medical recommendations to get vaccinated before the procedure.....they are unlikely to generate an immune response even if vaccinated post procedure. They are also signaling an unwillingness to follow medical recommendations.

They then present an ongoing risk to themselves, their transplant team, and the other patients around them.

 

This is not unique to covid and kidney transplant.

If you want to have anti-obesity surgery you must be compliant with a prescribed medical regimen including weight loss before you will have surgery.

If you need a bone marrow transplant you have to demonstrate you can be compliant in the post-transplant period, including having a full time caregiver.  

If you cant do those things, you don't proceed.

 

 

 

 

 

Just stop. You can lecture me on and on. Your political viewpoints and how they connect to the health industry are not the only way.

I didn't "spin" anything...and news flash...I got vaccinated...as you know.

I think we know full well that people are being punished for not getting vaccinated...and I do not agree with that. 

So, I guess we have the rights to do some things and then we are "saved by the governing bodies" when there are consequences...but it's very choosy on which you get helped...which is of course based on political agenda..

YOU can spin it any way you want...but I see through the political bull crap and manipulation.

 

[Buckeyes_Suck]

1 hour ago, cny rider said:

We have all been force-fed a vaccine that is safe, highly effective, and costs us nothing out of pocket.

 

Fixed 

I'd be curious to know if it wasn't such a hard sell if the vaccination rates would be higher. 

If something has to be sold to me, or even worse forced on me, I typically don't buy it.

[matt8204]

18 minutes ago, Luke_Mages said:

Fixed 

I'd be curious to know if it wasn't such a hard sell if the vaccination rates would be higher. 

If something has to be sold to me, or even worse forced on me, I typically don't buy it.

What's arousing suspicion among the holdouts even more are the mandate exemptions for some groups.  For example, why don't postal workers need to take it?  I can understand the feelings of skeptics who say "If this is such a crisis and there is an urgent need for people to take this thing, why are certain people not mandated to do so?"  That just makes them dig their heels in further.

[TugHillMatt]

2 minutes ago, matt8204 said:

What's arousing suspicion among the holdouts even more are the mandate exemptions for some groups.  For example, why don't postal workers need to take it?  I can understand the feelings of skeptics who say "If this is such a crisis and there is a need for people to take this thing, why are certain people not mandated to do so?"  That just makes them dig their heels in further.

Yep...so many inconsistencies.

Inconsistency leads to lack of trust.

[BuffaloWeather]

3 hours ago, Luke_Mages said:

Fixed 

I'd be curious to know if it wasn't such a hard sell if the vaccination rates would be higher. 

If something has to be sold to me, or even worse forced on me, I typically don't buy it.

I agree with this. Why are their paid commercials on how safe the vaccines are and how important it is to get them. Makes me not want to get it. 

[vortmax]

Again, if the hospital's statement were more specific, then maybe it could be more digestible. However, they don't tell you what the increased risk is above the baseline % range for getting Covid after the surgery (and that's assuming they actually contract Covid). 

"For transplant patients who contract COVID-19, the mortality rate ranges from about 20% to more than 30%."

The hospital's mortality rate statement is, according to current data I shared earlier, in the same or similar range as the surgery risk for non-Covid contracting patients. Just doesn't make sense. I find ambiguity by professionals in official statements is meant for manipulation.

[cny rider]

9 hours ago, Luke_Mages said:

Fixed 

I'd be curious to know if it wasn't such a hard sell if the vaccination rates would be higher. 

If something has to be sold to me, or even worse forced on me, I typically don't buy it.

Force fed by whom?

The public health officials whose job it is to fight pandemic illness?

The doctors and nurses who have seen enough death for a lifetime and want people to be protected?

Or was it those parents who want their kids to be able to attend school in person, maybe even without masks once the infection rates are down from vaccination?

Or was it the small business owners who knew their businesses wouldn't survive unless infection rates went down and people started shopping in person, attending events, going to the hairdresser and the hardware store?

 

And from a logical standpoint:  The "hard sell" is irrelevant.

You should make decisions that favor your survival, even if you think there's some nefarious "they" who want you to do something.

 

 

[cny rider]

6 hours ago, vortmax said:

Again, if the hospital's statement were more specific, then maybe it could be more digestible. However, they don't tell you what the increased risk is above the baseline % range for getting Covid after the surgery (and that's assuming they actually contract Covid). 

"For transplant patients who contract COVID-19, the mortality rate ranges from about 20% to more than 30%."

The hospital's mortality rate statement is, according to current data I shared earlier, in the same or similar range as the surgery risk for non-Covid contracting patients. Just doesn't make sense. I find ambiguity by professionals in official statements is meant for manipulation.

This seems paranoid.

 

[cny rider]

10 hours ago, TugHillMatt said:

Just stop. You can lecture me on and on. Your political viewpoints and how they connect to the health industry are not the only way.

I didn't "spin" anything...and news flash...I got vaccinated...as you know.

I think we know full well that people are being punished for not getting vaccinated...and I do not agree with that. 

So, I guess we have the rights to do some things and then we are "saved by the governing bodies" when there are consequences...but it's very choosy on which you get helped...which is of course based on political agenda..

YOU can spin it any way you want...but I see through the political bull crap and manipulation.

 

It's not all about you.

You chose to get vaccinated and I'm happy for you.

People aren't being punished for not being vaccinated, they are making a choice.

In this case they can choose to get vaccinated and have a kidney transplant.

Or they can choose not to get vaccinated and stay on dialysis.

Seems simple enough, I know which option I would choose.

 

[TugHillMatt]

8 minutes ago, cny rider said:

It's not all about you.

You chose to get vaccinated and I'm happy for you.

People aren't being punished for not being vaccinated, they are making a choice.

In this case they can choose to get vaccinated and have a kidney transplant.

Or they can choose not to get vaccinated and stay on dialysis.

Seems simple enough, I know which option I would choose.

 

I do see your point. However, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I guess I don't think there is a need to limit it to only 2 choices. That's the part where I feel it's being forced. It's like the Matrix: You can only choose 1 of the 2 options.... and there are more than just 2 options here...or there could be more.

I for sure agree with you on which choice I would make as well.

[Buckeyes_Suck]

1 hour ago, cny rider said:

Force fed by whom?

The public health officials whose job it is to fight pandemic illness?

The doctors and nurses who have seen enough death for a lifetime and want people to be protected?

Or was it those parents who want their kids to be able to attend school in person, maybe even without masks once the infection rates are down from vaccination?

Or was it the small business owners who knew their businesses wouldn't survive unless infection rates went down and people started shopping in person, attending events, going to the hairdresser and the hardware store?

 

And from a logical standpoint:  The "hard sell" is irrelevant.

You should make decisions that favor your survival, even if you think there's some nefarious "they" who want you to do something.

 

 

All of these are examples of force, as it was government policy not civilian behavior that drove the closures. The public officials overstepped and used fear to control the population. If this was truly dangerous and deadly people wouldn’t have needed the govt to step in and protect them. If the govt took all of these steps to fight the obesity pandemic they’d save more lives. Literally. 
 

[Buckeyes_Suck]

Furthermore look at what’s going on with cancer rates and other serious diseases. In 10 years I hope we’re able to look back and learn how horrifically this whole thing has been handled. All for 0.002 of the population. God forbid we have a something of a mortality of 10%…

[vortmax]

2 hours ago, cny rider said:

This seems paranoid.

 

The hospital statement doesn't make sense. It's logic, not paranoia. 

[cny rider]

9 hours ago, Luke_Mages said:

All of these are examples of force, as it was government policy not civilian behavior that drove the closures. The public officials overstepped and used fear to control the population. If this was truly dangerous and deadly people wouldn’t have needed the govt to step in and protect them. If the govt took all of these steps to fight the obesity pandemic they’d save more lives. Literally. 
 

We can look to the great states of Florida, Texas and Idaho for the outcomes in places that didn’t accept vaccination in high numbers and also didn’t “force” people to follow good public health pandemic mitigation strategies.

Their governors in particular made the pandemic a political issue, not a public health issue.

The results really have been impressive.  Death en masse.

 

[cny rider]

11 hours ago, Luke_Mages said:

Furthermore look at what’s going on with cancer rates and other serious diseases. In 10 years I hope we’re able to look back and learn how horrifically this whole thing has been handled. All for 0.002 of the population. God forbid we have a something of a mortality of 10%…

I admire your dedication to cancer screening.

Perhaps you could impart that to unvaccinated friends and colleagues.

One of the most impactful screening procedures we do for people is colonoscopy.

When you have a colonoscopy there will be 3 people in the room with you:  A gastroenterologist, a GI nurse, and an anesthesiologist or CRNA.

When a hospital gets hit with a Covid surge the anesthesia people get pulled and reassigned to airway management and critical care teams, taking care of the critically ill who are almost all unvaccinated.

Guess how many screening colonoscopies happen during that time?  Zero.

What's the best way to keep the GI Lab humming along doing those essential screenings?  Get vaccinated!

 

 

 

[Buckeyes_Suck]

3 hours ago, cny rider said:

We can look to the great states of Florida, Texas and Idaho for the outcomes in places that didn’t accept vaccination in high numbers and also didn’t “force” people to follow good public health pandemic mitigation strategies.

Their governors in particular made the pandemic a political issue, not a public health issue.

The results really have been impressive.  Death en masse.

 

Death en Masse? Complete hyperbole.

NY - 2900 deaths/1M

Florida (oldest population in country) -2600/1M

Texas - 2300/1M

Idaho -1700/1M

You need to get your news somewhere else than CNN.

[Buckeyes_Suck]

1 hour ago, cny rider said:

I admire your dedication to cancer screening.

Perhaps you could impart that to unvaccinated friends and colleagues.

One of the most impactful screening procedures we do for people is colonoscopy.

When you have a colonoscopy there will be 3 people in the room with you:  A gastroenterologist, a GI nurse, and an anesthesiologist or CRNA.

When a hospital gets hit with a Covid surge the anesthesia people get pulled and reassigned to airway management and critical care teams, taking care of the critically ill who are almost all unvaccinated.

Guess how many screening colonoscopies happen during that time?  Zero.

What's the best way to keep the GI Lab humming along doing those essential screenings?  Get vaccinated!

 

 

 

My wife works for the largest healthcare provider in the area (IE hospitals) and they were never near full census. Revenues are grossly down. People didn't get screenings because of the media and politicians fear mongering.