Coronavirus

[NEOH]

47 minutes ago, Hoosier said:

Some schools around here are going to be starting off with online learning or even doing the whole semester online, while others are starting off with in person learning or the hybrid model.  This will create a live experiment of sorts, although kids have friends and get together with kids who live in other towns which will still result in a lot of mixing.  

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I'm not sure about the hybrid model of kids going to school in person for 2 or 3 days a week and staying at home for the other 2 or 3 days.  There is still about 6-8 hours of possible exposure on the days they are there in person. 

Holding classes outdoors seems like a decent idea just from a virus standpoint, though I imagine it would be easier for kids to become distracted outdoors and you could only do that for so long in many parts of the country.

Pediatricians are recommending that kids go back to school - https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/29/884638999/u-s-pediatricians-call-for-in-person-school-this-fall

If the risk was great I doubt they would make that recommendation. 

[madwx]

13 minutes ago, NEOH said:

Pediatricians are recommending that kids go back to school - https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/29/884638999/u-s-pediatricians-call-for-in-person-school-this-fall

If the risk was great I doubt they would make that recommendation. 

looks like there is a linked article that has a more recent update

 

[Baum]

The better half is second grade school teacher. She's looking forward to going back. She understands that there is some risk of the staff contracting the virus. Less chance of the children becoming seriously ill.  The hope is the measures put in place; distancing,masks, temp checks, open air classes when possible minimize those risks. She believes remote learning for elementary school and special ed levels is something that does not work. Her time in the spring spent via remote learning and class prep and teacher/parent/student communication even with maximum effort has left students a half year behind compared to where they would be. She knows the children that are coming in this fall  will not be as prepared they normally would be. In the end, she feels the children's need to learn in as normal a classroom setting outweighs the risks that surely exist. Personal note. I commend her courage, and am proud of her.

[wisconsinwx]

18 minutes ago, Baum said:

The better half is second grade school teacher. She's looking forward to going back. She understands that there is some risk of the staff contracting the virus. Less chance of the children becoming seriously ill.  The hope is the measures put in place; distancing,masks, temp checks, open air classes when possible minimize those risks. She believes remote learning for elementary school and special ed levels is something that does not work. Her time in the spring spent via remote learning and class prep and teacher/parent/student communication even with maximum effort has left students a half year behind compared to where they would be. She knows the children that are coming in this fall  will not be as prepared they normally would be. In the end, she feels the children's need to learn in as normal a classroom setting outweighs the risks that surely exist. Personal note. I commend her courage, and am proud of her.

Fauci is on the side of careful in person learning too, dependent on magnitude of the spread.  I would say I agree with his assessment, and hopefully this opens other’s minds if they are averse to any in-person learning.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/dr-fauci-lends-support-for-reopening-schools-in-person-learning/amp/

[Inverted_Trough]

Children are basically vectors for disease propagation, i.e. they don't suffer much from the disease itself but they are efficient spreaders of disease.  Opening up schools will increase the velocity of infections, there will be outbreaks, and there will be some teachers that die during these outbreaks.  The question is whether society is okay with an increase in the velocity of infections in order to have the benefits of in-person learning.  Frankly, I think if we see outbreaks, society might tolerate that for a couple of months, but eventually they'll decide its untenable and many schools will fallback to virtual learning.  I think we keep trying to force "normalcy" when normalcy simply isn't possible right now.

[Hoosier]

We really need widespread, effective rapid result testing.  I don't have a lot of confidence in schools being able to catch outbreaks in time before they turn into dozens or hundreds of cases.  I definitely think we will have instances of that.  Yes, kids are statistically lower risk of serious illness, but then it spills out where it can affect more vulnerable people. 

[Jonger]

1 hour ago, madwx said:

looks like there is a linked article that has a more recent update

 

Anytime an organization makes a statement that has a positive position on this, we get a quick retraction. I can't help but guess we have someone pulling the strings on this behind the scenes.

[Jonger]

31 minutes ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Children are basically vectors for disease propagation, i.e. they don't suffer much from the disease itself but they are efficient spreaders of disease.  Opening up schools will increase the velocity of infections, there will be outbreaks, and there will be some teachers that die during these outbreaks.  The question is whether society is okay with an increase in the velocity of infections in order to have the benefits of in-person learning.  Frankly, I think if we see outbreaks, society might tolerate that for a couple of months, but eventually they'll decide its untenable and many schools will fallback to virtual learning.  I think we keep trying to force "normalcy" when normalcy simply isn't possible right now.

Kids typically aren't obese or have preexisting conditions. My son being an exception... he has type 1 diabetes and is insulin dependent. Even so, we have had numerous parents document their experiences and so far every child has been asymptomatic. 

[Maestrobjwa]

25 minutes ago, Jonger said:

Kids typically aren't obese or have preexisting conditions. My son being an exception... he has type 1 diabetes and is insulin dependent. Even so, we have had numerous parents document their experiences and so far every child has been asymptomatic. 

But even so...if it turns out that children can spread it...even if it harms them less, are we okay with them contributing to increased transmission of the virus? And in particular...the teachers being susceptible to it? To me that's the bigger problem...but the frustrating part is the evidence is not clear as of yet. Prior to last month, it wasn't looking like they thought kids spread it. But now, over the last few weeks, you have two rather discouraging studies come out from S. Korea (saying that kids 10+ can spread it just like adults), and another talking about kids 5 and under having a higher viral load. And then you have the two summer camp incidents.

Now you mentioned suspicion about the reason for the pediatrician walk-back...I'm wondering if it's because of the research and incidents that I just mentioned!

[NEOH]

1 hour ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Children are basically vectors for disease propagation, i.e. they don't suffer much from the disease itself but they are efficient spreaders of disease.  Opening up schools will increase the velocity of infections, there will be outbreaks, and there will be some teachers that die during these outbreaks.  The question is whether society is okay with an increase in the velocity of infections in order to have the benefits of in-person learning.  Frankly, I think if we see outbreaks, society might tolerate that for a couple of months, but eventually they'll decide its untenable and many schools will fallback to virtual learning.  I think we keep trying to force "normalcy" when normalcy simply isn't possible right now.

The AAP guidance is based on what pediatricians and infectious disease specialists know about COVID-19 and kids. Evidence so far suggests that children and adolescents are less likely to have symptoms or severe disease from infection. They also appear less likely to become infected or spread the virus.

[dta1984]

6 minutes ago, NEOH said:

The AAP guidance is based on what pediatricians and infectious disease specialists know about COVID-19 and kids. Evidence so far suggests that children and adolescents are less likely to have symptoms or severe disease from infection. They also appear less likely to become infected or spread the virus.

Just saw Ohio is mandating masks for k-12 kids.  I believe that's a bit extreme, and could pose other risks of illness with masking other bacteria a kid normally has around their mouth and nose.  

[Hoosier]

8 minutes ago, Maestrobjwa said:

But even so...if it turns out that children can spread it...even if it harms them less, are we okay with them contributing to increased transmission of the virus? And in particular...the teachers being susceptible to it? To me that's the bigger problem...but the frustrating part is the evidence is not clear as of yet. Prior to last month, it wasn't looking like they thought kids spread it. But now, over the last few weeks, you have two rather discouraging studies come out from S. Korea (saying that kids 10+ can spread it just like adults), and another talking about kids 5 and under having a higher viral load. And then you have the two summer camp incidents.

Now you mentioned suspicion about the reason for the pediatrician walk-back...I'm wondering if it's because of the research and incidents that I just mentioned!

Yeah I'm guessing those 2 studies are the reason for the change in position.

In current hotspot areas where resources are already strained, it is pretty much a no brainer that you can't send the kids into school.  Question is how to handle it in areas with less virus and there are no easy answers.

[Inverted_Trough]

11 minutes ago, NEOH said:

 They also appear less likely to become infected or spread the virus.

There was recently a large study (65000+ people) from South Korea that basically concluded kids that at age 10 and over are just as efficient at spreading the virus.  It's still an open question whether kids under the age of 10 are efficient spreaders.

I think the outbreak at the YMCA camp in Georgia shows how easily kids can spread this thing.  You can also look at Israel...they had the virus almost eradicated, until they opened schools.  They had so many outbreaks that they had to close all their schools again.

Even today, you had several positive cases at some school in Mississippi.  I just have a feeling that, a couple months from now, we're going to look back and think to ourselves "What the heck were we thinking?"  Hope I'm wrong!

[wisconsinwx]

17 minutes ago, dta1984 said:

Just saw Ohio is mandating masks for k-12 kids.  I believe that's a bit extreme, and could pose other risks of illness with masking other bacteria a kid normally has around their mouth and nose.  

Mask use as frequently as possible is probably how we can reopen schools, with the exception of those who suffer from asthma and other issues that may be worsened by wearing a mask.  Having an option for remote learning for those students could be pondered, along with those with more at-risk parents or guardians.

[purduewx80]

37 minutes ago, Hoosier said:

Yeah I'm guessing those 2 studies are the reason for the change in position.

In current hotspot areas where resources are already strained, it is pretty much a no brainer that you can't send the kids into school.  Question is how to handle it in areas with less virus and there are no easy answers.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Test, trace, federal mask mandate w/ fines for non-compliance.

If we’d had a total 6-week shutdown nationally in the spring, we wouldn’t have to deal with these conspiracies, mis-information and the trolls in this godawful thread. 

[Hoosier]

3 minutes ago, purduewx80 said:

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Test, trace, federal mask mandate w/ fines for non-compliance.

If we’d had a total 6-week shutdown nationally in the spring, we wouldn’t have to deal with these conspiracies, mis-information and the trolls in this godawful thread. 

We play with the cards we've been dealt.

 

[Jonger]

42 minutes ago, dta1984 said:

Just saw Ohio is mandating masks for k-12 kids.  I believe that's a bit extreme, and could pose other risks of illness with masking other bacteria a kid normally has around their mouth and nose.  

I could see this for high school, but elementary this is a no-go. Our elementary is going to mask in the hallways, but not in class. My son goes crazy after 20 minutes... no way would he make it 6 to 8 hours.

I noticed the middleschool has plywood sealing off all entrances except the front doors. No idea what's going on there, but I'm 100x more worried about fires. I'll snap a pic of it if I get a chance.

[Jonger]

5 minutes ago, purduewx80 said:

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Test, trace, federal mask mandate w/ fines for non-compliance.

If we’d had a total 6-week shutdown nationally in the spring, we wouldn’t have to deal with these conspiracies, mis-information and the trolls in this godawful thread. 

You want strict government controls in a country founded on freedom from the government. Now you seem frustrated that free speech is running rampant.

Hmm..

[Stebo]

7 minutes ago, Hoosier said:

We play with the cards we've been dealt.

 

We had people at the top throwing away good hands purposefully.

[Stebo]

I am glad this state is one of the last to restart school in general... That being said we are going to find out very quickly how much it spreads if this is any indication in Georgia

Good luck getting kids to listen to anything with regard to mask wearing. There may be 5 masks total in that hallway of at least 75 kids.

[madwx]

15 minutes ago, Jonger said:

I could see this for high school, but elementary this is a no-go. Our elementary is going to mask in the hallways, but not in class. My son goes crazy after 20 minutes... no way would he make it 6 to 8 hours.

I noticed the middleschool has plywood sealing off all entrances except the front doors. No idea what's going on there, but I'm 100x more worried about fires. I'll snap a pic of it if I get a chance.

also seems like that would funnel all students together.  You'd think if they wanted some distancing they would let kids enter and exit in different areas

[Hoosier]

Was reading about the schools in Israel.  Basically it sounds like they started out with precautions and restrictions on class sizes and then let up and fully opened schools.

[NEOH]

3 hours ago, purduewx80 said:

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Test, trace, federal mask mandate w/ fines for non-compliance.

If we’d had a total 6-week shutdown nationally in the spring, we wouldn’t have to deal with these conspiracies, mis-information and the trolls in this godawful thread. 

Hindsight is always 20/20. How are you so certain a 6 week shutdown would have stopped this? Are you a MD?  Just curious as I haven't seen anyone speak about COVID with such certainty.

[nwohweather]

This talk about the schools is meaningless. With many Midwest states going ahead with Football for high school you’re going to have an environment ripe for spread with coaches who are going to be inclined to cover up cases. Also Ohio seems to be all in on allowing fans.

Absolutely wild that you can’t attend a Cleveland Indians game or NASCAR race, but you can go watch your local high school. These state leaders couldn’t be dumber

[Hoosier]

36 minutes ago, NEOH said:

Hindsight is always 20/20. How are you so certain a 6 week shutdown would have stopped this? Are you a MD?  Just curious as I haven't seen anyone speak about COVID with such certainty.

Wouldn't have stopped it, but there's pretty good reason to think we wouldn't be having 60k+ confirmed cases per day right now had some states been more careful with their reopening.  

[Hoosier]

18 minutes ago, nwohweather said:

This talk about the schools is meaningless. With many Midwest states going ahead with Football for high school you’re going to have an environment ripe for spread with coaches who are going to be inclined to cover up cases. Also Ohio seems to be all in on allowing fans.

Absolutely wild that you can’t attend a Cleveland Indians game or NASCAR race, but you can go watch your local high school. These state leaders couldn’t be dumber

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense.  

I had no idea that high school football was going to be happening because I have been reading stories of local schools cancelling contact sports.  Perhaps my county is not representative of the rest of Indiana. 

[nwohweather]

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense.  
I had no idea that high school football was going to be happening because I have been reading stories of local schools cancelling contact sports.  Perhaps my county is not representative of the rest of Indiana. 

It’s up to local districts. But both the IHSAA and OHSAA are going full steam ahead with a season. We’re still only able to do regular things in a limited setting and yet high school sports isn’t being held up at all. This and colleges returning is one big middle finger to any reasonable measures of stopping the spread.

[nwohweather]

http:// https://www.toledoblade.com/sports/high-school/2020/08/04/Briggs-time-for-Ohio-punt-on-fall-high-school-football/stories/20200804171

Good write up here. This story and the comments on Facebook are shocking. The vast majority of people are losing their minds if their kids cannot play sports this Fall.

[Guest ovweather]

1 hour ago, Hoosier said:

Wouldn't have stopped it, but there's pretty good reason to think we wouldn't be having 60k+ confirmed cases per day right now had some states been more careful with their reopening.  

I was of the mindset that a 6-week nationwide shutdown starting back in March would of stopped this thing in its tracks. Now, I think that would of just delayed the inevitable. Even with a 6-week shutdown back then, the virus was still going to be lurking in small pockets just waiting to pounce when things reopened. I think a nationwide mask mandate should of been issued back in March regardless of a shutdown, but we were in denial masks were effective in stopping the spread.

So here we are in August with the virus still going strong nationwide. If there is any good news that we didn’t have back in March, that is many more people appear to be asymptomatic or having only mild symptoms then what was originally feared. Yes, the number of dead is still way too high, but the overall death rate appears to be much lower than originally feared. The discovery of T-cell cross reactivity meaning many people will be asymptomatic or have only mild symptoms is huge. And the progress on vaccines that appear to offer a high immunity is very encouraging. We probably got another 6-12 months of restrictions, mask-wearing, etc, before things improve.

[Stebo]

4 hours ago, nwohweather said:

This talk about the schools is meaningless. With many Midwest states going ahead with Football for high school you’re going to have an environment ripe for spread with coaches who are going to be inclined to cover up cases. Also Ohio seems to be all in on allowing fans.

Absolutely wild that you can’t attend a Cleveland Indians game or NASCAR race, but you can go watch your local high school. These state leaders couldn’t be dumber

These schools are being stupid and going to have a huge problem on their hands very quickly. You are already seeing instances of this across the country of outbreaks in high school athletics. It is only getting worse from here on out.