Coronavirus

[Santa Clause]

https://theweek.com/speedreads/927908/even-mild-coronavirus-cases-cause-lasting-cardiovascular-damage-study-shows

[Jonger]

Just now, Wmsptwx said:

https://theweek.com/speedreads/927908/even-mild-coronavirus-cases-cause-lasting-cardiovascular-damage-study-shows

But a recent study of 100 recovered coronavirus patients reveals 78 of them now have lasting cardiovascular damage even though a vast majority of them had mild cases of COVID-19 in the first place.

If you have looked into the typical symptomatic patient, it would shock me to find they aren't already walking around with cardiovascular damage as it is.

That's the thing with diabetes. It's not the diabetes itself that raises your risk of dying or having symptoms, it's the DAMAGE inflicted from the diabetes over the years that causes susceptibility.  Heightened blood sugar causes inflammation in your blood vessels and that damages nerves. My sister-in-law has RAGING type 2 diabetes.... commonly walking around with 450 mg/dl every day of her life. She spends the majority of her life recovering or weathering infections. She's 450 lbs and 5' 6''. She would probably perish from COVID-19.

[madwx]

11 minutes ago, Jonger said:

But a recent study of 100 recovered coronavirus patients reveals 78 of them now have lasting cardiovascular damage even though a vast majority of them had mild cases of COVID-19 in the first place.

If you have looked into the typical symptomatic patient, it would shock me to find they aren't already walking around with cardiovascular damage as it is.

That's the thing with diabetes. It's not the diabetes itself that raises your risk of dying or having symptoms, it's the DAMAGE inflicted from the diabetes over the years that causes susceptibility.  Heightened blood sugar causes inflammation in your blood vessels and that damages nerves. My sister-in-law has RAGING type 2 diabetes.... commonly walking around with 450 mg/dl every day of her life. She spends the majority of her life recovering or weathering infections. She's 450 lbs and 5' 6''. She would probably perish from COVID-19.

Average BMI in that study was 25.

[Jonger]

1 minute ago, madwx said:

Average BMI in that study was 25.

Key word -- recovered.

[madwx]

1 minute ago, Jonger said:

Key word -- recovered.

80% of middle aged people had lasting cardiovascular damage, their average BMI was 25.  We don't know if this damage will go away with time and viruses usually do cause some short term cardiovascular damage but the damage from Covid is lasting longer than other diseases.

[Inverted_Trough]

Covid has simply accelerated business closures that were going to happen anyway.  Businesses also need to learn how to manage their money better.  Frankly I think any company that used their profits to buy back their stock should get no help.  Let them wallow in the wake of their poor short term decisions.

[Powerball]

17 minutes ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Covid has simply accelerated business closures that were going to happen anyway.  Businesses also need to learn how to manage their money better.  Frankly I think any company that used their profits to buy back their stock should get no help.  Let them wallow in the wake of their poor short term decisions.

The issue you run into there is with the "too big to fail" companies.

Philosophically, I agree that companies such as Delta, American and United don't deserve a bailout. But I also don't think the solution is to let them collapse and potentially put millions of jobs at risk, in addition to harming country's transportation infrastructure. 

At least with the route we went, *SOME* jobs will be saved and the infrastructure in place will remain relatively in tact. 

If done right, bailouts can work. See the auto industry for example. 

[nwohweather]

17 minutes ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Covid has simply accelerated business closures that were going to happen anyway.  Businesses also need to learn how to manage their money better.  Frankly I think any company that used their profits to buy back their stock should get no help.  Let them wallow in the wake of their poor short term decisions.

Nah the hospitality & airline industry was doing just fine until March. Honestly the bigger issue with this is that a lot of those jobs are "unskilled" and were typical fall back positions during previous downturns. Sure you lost your job but you can now go be a waitress or something. But goodness people in things like hotels & restaurants and their owners are being killed here. That's where this gets bad, you can't fall back onto service industry jobs because they don't exist due to this. That's where this becomes a pit of doom truly. 

The reason the airline industry is so so so so key is because of its demand for planes. The amount of manufacturing tied up in defense & aerospace is absurd and dwarfs that of the auto industry. If you have your airlines go under we have a real serious problem.

[Jonger]

23 minutes ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Covid has simply accelerated business closures that were going to happen anyway.  Businesses also need to learn how to manage their money better.  Frankly I think any company that used their profits to buy back their stock should get no help.  Let them wallow in the wake of their poor short term decisions.

I'm going to need a link to this claim.

Here's an important bit of info.

Restaurants, gyms, bars, yoga studios... etc.

They might be closed right now and you won't know who's really down for the count until we re-open these businesses. 

The employees they laid off or let go are currently sitting at home making as much as 2X what they were making while those companies are never going to re-open.

The impact on the economy is actually positive right now. For now.

[Guest ovweather]

2 hours ago, madwx said:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916

60% of middle aged people had cardiac inflammation after getting COVID.  20% with pericardial effusion.  Average BMI 25.  

Fun.  Fun fun fun.

Concerning, but in all fairness, this is one of those things that will need years of study and research to determine to what extent Covid might affect the heart. Taking Covid out of the equation, some middle aged people who have no apparent underlying conditions and have a normal BMI will most likely display some form of a heart irregularity or inflammation without even knowing it. Also, having a normal BMI can be meaningless when determining how healthy a person and their heart is. A man can weigh 400 pounds but only be 8% body fat and be considered morbidly obese going by the BMI scale. One would have to see these peoples hearts before having had Covid to determine if Covid is to blame. Many infections will show inflammation in the major organs of the body for a time period after the infection. I'm not trying to undermine the seriousness of Covid, but this is one those fear-mongering articles that should not be published until thorough, long-term research has been done.

[Jonger]

You can really spot the public employees from the private employees ITT.

[Inverted_Trough]

Well, consolidation and monopolization that has occurred since the 1970s has created businesses that are "too big to fail".  You can thank the University of Chicago "intellectual" economists for instilling the belief that business consolidation is good because it's "efficient".  Make no mistake:  The system we have today is by design.  

Bailouts are sometimes necessary but the problem is that there should be conditions placed upon the acceptance of that money.  For example, if you accept a bailout, then for the next five years you are not allowed to spend a single penny buying back your own stock.  If you don't like those conditions, then don't accept the bailout.  

[Jonger]

Just now, ovweather said:

Concerning, but in all fairness, this is one of those things that will need years of study and research to determine to what extent Covid might affect the heart. Taking Covid out of the equation, some middle aged people who have no apparent underlying conditions and have a normal BMI will most likely display some form of a heart irregularity or inflammation without even knowing it. Also, having a normal BMI can be meaningless when determining how healthy a person and their heart is. A man can weigh 400 pounds but only be 8% body fat and be considered morbidly obese going by the BMI scale. One would have to see these peoples hearts before having had Covid to determine if Covid is to blame. Many infections will show inflammation in the major organs of the body for a time period after the infection. I'm not trying to undermine the seriousness of Covid, but this is one those fear-mongering articles that should not be published until thorough, long-term research has been done.

And the other thing, any illness can/does affect the heart. My grandmother died after getting a cold in 2007. That "cold" was almost certainly a virus or bacterial infection with a proper scientific name. Nobody cared back in 2007 about pathogen specifics, but in 2020 you better bet your butt they would/

 

[Jonger]

Just now, Inverted_Trough said:

Well, consolidation and monopolization that has occurred since the 1970s has created businesses that are "too big to fail".  You can thank the University of Chicago "intellectual" economists for instilling the belief that business consolidation is good because it's "efficient".  Make no mistake:  The system we have today is by design.  

Bailouts are sometimes necessary but the problem is that there should be conditions placed upon the acceptance of that money.  For example, if you accept a bailout, then for the next five years you are not allowed to spend a single penny buying back your own stock.  If you don't like those conditions, then don't accept the bailout.  

Too big to fail means that the company is so intertwined into the economy that closing it down would cause more damage than propping it up.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's the reality of 21st century economics.

[Powerball]

4 minutes ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Well, consolidation and monopolization that has occurred since the 1970s has created businesses that are "too big to fail".  You can thank the University of Chicago "intellectual" economists for instilling the belief that business consolidation is good because it's "efficient".  Make no mistake:  The system we have today is by design.  

Bailouts are sometimes necessary but the problem is that there should be conditions placed upon the acceptance of that money.  For example, if you accept a bailout, then for the next five years you are not allowed to spend a single penny buying back your own stock.  If you don't like those conditions, then don't accept the bailout.  

Agreed 100% with the bolded.

As far as the first paragraph, Americans have voted for the type of government that has allowed for consolidation and monopolization since the 70s. So collectively as a nation, we're getting what we deserve as the chickens come home to roost. The only way to change the situation is for Americans to vote for the type of government that is willing to change the system, and they've proven yet again they're not willing to do so. 

[Inverted_Trough]

6 minutes ago, nwohweather said:

Nah the hospitality & airline industry was doing just fine until March. Honestly the bigger issue with this is that a lot of those jobs are "unskilled" and were typical fall back positions during previous downturns. Sure you lost your job but you can now go be a waitress or something. But goodness people in things like hotels & restaurants and their owners are being killed here. That's where this gets bad, you can't fall back onto service industry jobs because they don't exist due to this. That's where this becomes a pit of doom truly. 

Over the past ten years, the big six airlines have spent 96% of their profits on stock buybacks.  Sorry, but I'm not that sympathetic to the airlines.  They are especially vulnerable to natural disasters, geopolitical conflicts, pandemics, etc.  So of all industries you would think they would have a long-term, strategic view towards things.  But nope. I say let them fend for themselves.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/airlines-and-boeing-want-a-bailout-but-look-how-much-theyve-spent-on-stock-buybacks-2020-03-18

[Jonger]

1 minute ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Over the past ten years, the big six airlines have spent 96% of their profits on stock buybacks.  Sorry, but I'm not that sympathetic to the airlines.  They are especially vulnerable to natural disasters, geopolitical conflicts, pandemics, etc.  So of all industries you would think they would have a long-term, strategic view towards things.  But nope. I say let them fend for themselves.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/airlines-and-boeing-want-a-bailout-but-look-how-much-theyve-spent-on-stock-buybacks-2020-03-18

Well, we could make the airlines publicly owned.

It wouldn't save us any money after the pillaging and waste is factored in though.

[nwohweather]

3 minutes ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Over the past ten years, the big six airlines have spent 96% of their profits on stock buybacks.  Sorry, but I'm not that sympathetic to the airlines.  They are especially vulnerable to natural disasters, geopolitical conflicts, pandemics, etc.  So of all industries you would think they would have a long-term, strategic view towards things.  But nope. I say let them fend for themselves.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/airlines-and-boeing-want-a-bailout-but-look-how-much-theyve-spent-on-stock-buybacks-2020-03-18

One of the few times Donald Trump is right, Boeing is probably the most important manufacturer in America toIt's a debate for sure in business as stock buybacks just boost your earnings and are  be honest so it's a bit of a pickle. This why Berkshire Hathaway Holdings are the big dog on the block, they value cash over cash flow. In your personal life would you rather buy a $30,000 F150 for 6 years, or do 7 years at $34,000? 

[Powerball]

Should add, there's also the national security aspect too with protecting the aerospace industry. 

Many of the companies that support Commercial Aerospace also support the Military. However, military expenditures often exceed their costs and depending on the contract, the government doesn't reimburse companies for these costs until the product is delivered. In the mean time, they're having to spend a ton of their own money on equipment, material and labor upfront.

The commercial side of the industry is what many of the major aerospace companies supplying the US government rely on to fund their expenditures, and if they're not bringing in the money to fund those expenditures, then they can't afford to deliver products to the government (thus creating a security risk).

[BuffaloWeather]

You should see the stock buybacks and ceo bonuses from the 2008 buyouts. We personally paid for millions of bonuses for failed greedy management teams in sub prime lending. Completely mind blowing how that is legal. 

[HillsdaleMIWeather]

Michigan still hovering around 700 new cases a day

[Jonger]

Just how bad is the US economy and how bad will it get? Rubenstein didn't mince his words when speaking with Gillian Tetthair, Editorial Board, and Editor-at-large; "I think nobody in Washington, or in New York or any part of the United States, really knows how bad the economy is, because we don't know when we're going to come back out of the shutdown and people are going to go back to work, go back to school. Right now, the economy is as bad as anything I've seen in my lifetime of course and not since the Great Depression have we had numbers as bad."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paularmstrongtech/2020/05/12/billionaire-david-rubenstein-says-nobody-in-us-knows-how-bad-the-economy-is/#38d641f81836

 

[Stebo]

3 hours ago, nwohweather said:

I don't make policy decisions, I just explain the economic ramifications of what is happening. Lol other people can make those decisions accordingly. 

You have to realize money has no eyes, has no heart, has no soul. You're right though, it is profit over anything. You're taking this personally, and business isn't about emotion, it's about being good. I don't really care about what unions did previously, I care how I can beat their high labor costs & hard protections of employees. Luckily for our company, customers and shareholders I almost always win

Dude you are the one beating the drum of people must work and the economy must go on. If anyone is taking anything personally, its you. Funny how me wanting people to be safe is somehow looked at as being a negative thing. Then again you are in a state with exploding cases but you could careless about taking precautions

[Stebo]

3 hours ago, Jonger said:

But a recent study of 100 recovered coronavirus patients reveals 78 of them now have lasting cardiovascular damage even though a vast majority of them had mild cases of COVID-19 in the first place.

If you have looked into the typical symptomatic patient, it would shock me to find they aren't already walking around with cardiovascular damage as it is.

That's the thing with diabetes. It's not the diabetes itself that raises your risk of dying or having symptoms, it's the DAMAGE inflicted from the diabetes over the years that causes susceptibility.  Heightened blood sugar causes inflammation in your blood vessels and that damages nerves. My sister-in-law has RAGING type 2 diabetes.... commonly walking around with 450 mg/dl every day of her life. She spends the majority of her life recovering or weathering infections. She's 450 lbs and 5' 6''. She would probably perish from COVID-19.

You honestly believe that people already had heart problems before this? I mean that is quite an uneducated leap of faith that isn't remotely based in truth. The cases here were post-covid with cardiovascular damage, and none pre-covid.

[Guest ovweather]

2 hours ago, Jonger said:

And the other thing, any illness can/does affect the heart. My grandmother died after getting a cold in 2007. That "cold" was almost certainly a virus or bacterial infection with a proper scientific name. Nobody cared back in 2007 about pathogen specifics, but in 2020 you better bet your butt they would/

 

When I had a severe case of bacterial pneumonia (brought on by a lingering viral infection) back in 2004, I was knocked on my butt for two months, but not sure if my heart suffered any long-term damage. I do know 4.5 months after the pneumonia I was back to running a half-marathon at my normal pace and felt fine. My lung and heart capacity felt normal. Several years later I had an echocardiogram done and it was normal.

The bottom line again is that it’s way too soon to be determining that Covid is permanently damaging the heart and other organs as some news reports have indicated. That will require extensive research over thousands of Covid patients.

[Stebo]

Just now, ovweather said:

When I had a severe case of bacterial pneumonia (brought on by a lingering viral infection) back in 2004, I was knocked on my butt for two months, but not sure if my heart suffered any long-term damage. I do know 4.5 months after the pneumonia I was back to running a half-marathon at my normal pace and felt fine. My lung and heart capacity felt normal. Several years later I had an echocardiogram done and it was normal.

The bottom line again is that it’s way too soon to be determining that Covid is permanently damaging the heart and other organs as some news reports have indicated.

That study had 78% who had some impact that didn't previously have that damage... Maybe they recover and heal but right off the bat there is damage post-covid which immediately endangers those who get it.

[Guest ovweather]

Just now, Stebo said:

That study had 78% who had some impact that didn't previously have that damage... Maybe they recover and heal but right off the bat there is damage post-covid which immediately endangers those who get it.

True, but how do they know the person didn’t have some damage / inflammation before contracting Covid without having tested them prior? Frankly, I won’t be surprised if it is learned without doubt that Covid can damage the heart to some extent. That’s why being cautious is so important right now until we learn all we can about the virus.

[Stebo]

Just now, ovweather said:

True, but how do they know the person didn’t have some damage / inflammation before contracting Covid without having tested them prior? Frankly, I won’t be surprised if it is learned without doubt that Covid can damage the heart to some extent. That’s why being cautious is so important right now until we learn all we can about the virus.

It is 78%, It would take a great assumption to think most of 78 out of 100 had some sort of damage beforehand. Mind you this is a German study, not an American where our lifestyle is such that it could be possible though still very highly unlikely. Fact is covid can have a lasting impact on the cardiovascular. Just look at Eduardo Rodriguez for the Red Sox, he 100% didn't have any cardiovascular issues before covid and you know that because MLB does physicals on their players regularly.

[Santa Clause]

There’s a need to downplay covid in a lot of people, I think part of it is a coping mechanism. This was never going to be deadly like Ebola, if it was it would’ve killed itself out already. Its a perfect storm of asymptomatic and mild symptom people spreading it rapidly and it finding those who who are more vulnerable or just unlucky and ends up being serious/deadly then. This is why it’s a dangerous pandemic, it’s not making some sick enough to stay home or not be out, while it’s killing others.

[Guest ovweather]

31 minutes ago, Stebo said:

It is 78%, It would take a great assumption to think most of 78 out of 100 had some sort of damage beforehand. Mind you this is a German study, not an American where our lifestyle is such that it could be possible though still very highly unlikely. Fact is covid can have a lasting impact on the cardiovascular. Just look at Eduardo Rodriguez for the Red Sox, he 100% didn't have any cardiovascular issues before covid and you know that because MLB does physicals on their players regularly.

Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing right now about lasting impact since the virus is so new. It will take years before any thorough and conclusive research can be achieved.

Is it possible some of the 78% had some damage / inflammation beforehand? Sure it is. Allergies, for example, can cause severe inflammation in the body, including the heart. Were all 78% non-smokers, too? I’m not trying to minimize Covid because I’m on your side about taking it seriously and mask wearing, etc  But some of these reports seem to be jumping the gun and playing into the hands of those wanting to create mass hysteria over the virus.