Baum Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 ^ interesting case, though I suggest challenging the legality of wearing the masks maybe harder to argue given the conflicting information initially brought forth regarding it's ability to stop the spread even from Dr. Fauci and the CDC among others before reversing course. This confusion did not help. That said, I've been wearing a mask in closed quarters around folks since early April. I view it as a courtesy to others whether it is useful or not. There are folks out and about who have literally been paralyzed by fear. If I can help ease that a bit I'm all for it. Hard to believe the mask thing became a political football. Here is some more analysis on the case which was a great item to inject into the debate: "Those who pose a risk to the community can be required to submit to compulsory measures for the common good. The control measure itself, however, should not pose a health risk to its subject. Justice Harlan emphasized that Henning Jacobson was a “fit person” for smallpox vaccination, but he asserted that requiring a person to be immunized who would be harmed is “cruel and inhuman in the last degree.” Baseball in less than a week. So there's that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwohweather Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 More like this isn't a political forum and the place that is has banned some here so they don't get a free ride. We don't care what your opinion is in the end because it's just that, an opinion and not fact nor law.I’m not trying to be political? I’m simply saying I feel very uncomfortable at the fact that the government can declare certain occupations illegal due to this virus. PPE is used in heavy manufacturing all the time to keep people safe, even the CDC said if mask wearing was mandatory the spread would fall dramatically within 4-8 weeks. I fail to see why a mask mandate is not the move before complete shutdown? Ultimately things need to be left open because unless you enact martial law you’re not going to stop pool parties, cookouts, weddings, boating events, camping with friends. By and large people have said screw this and are continuing social events with people they know. As long as this is the norm I fail to see how a bar or restaurant closing is going to do much of anything except make those people go broke. In the latest Gallup poll 72% of people wear a mask “Always” or “Very Often” so we are definitely improving! But come on guys get with it, people are running around like crazy this summer. If the US government bans out of state travel, bans any group hangouts at homes & then closes down restaurants/bars/gyms I’d say that’s an idea that while extreme would work. But unless those are done you’re completely delusional thinking closing any businesses is going to actually solve this virus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 9 hours ago, RogueWaves said: Ford's "revolutionary plan" only worked out that way due to a new thing called mass-production assembly lines that produced cars cheap enough. The other thing going for him was the immense popularity and thus quantity demand for the product. The key to keeping the cars affordable was the volume. No way his plan to pay higher wages works if the volume wasn't there. I worked for Four Winns boats in Cadillac some years back, and trust me, nobody on that assembly line was paid well enough to easily afford even their lower-end sport boats, let alone the really low volume cabin cruisers or even the mid-sized cuddies. The irony of his post is next level. The production line is used to maximize labor potential to turn a profit. Kind of funny how he mentioned Henry Ford like he did. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerball Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 13 hours ago, RogueWaves said: Ford's "revolutionary plan" only worked out that way due to a new thing called mass-production assembly lines that produced cars cheap enough. The other thing going for him was the immense popularity and thus quantity demand for the product. The key to keeping the cars affordable was the volume. No way his plan to pay higher wages works if the volume wasn't there. I worked for Four Winns boats in Cadillac some years back, and trust me, nobody on that assembly line was paid well enough to easily afford even their lower-end sport boats, let alone the really low volume cabin cruisers or even the mid-sized cuddies. I'm as progressive and pro-labor as they come, but I'm also a business major and have worked in the private sector. You are 100% correct about Ford. To add, when Henry Ford was offering $5 / day, it wasn't out of altruism. It was to poach workers from other local automakers (I.E. Packard, Hudson, GM, etc.) he had to compete with. And it helped that he didn't have to offer fringe benefits such as health insurance and retirement benefits as well. That being said, I think the point is still being missed. The issue is many folks are having a philosophical debate about whether the economy and individual liberties should take priority over protecting the health of the general public, instead of a realistic debate about how we should be stopping the spread of the virus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ovweather Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 2 hours ago, nwohweather said: I’m not trying to be political? I’m simply saying I feel very uncomfortable at the fact that the government can declare certain occupations illegal due to this virus. PPE is used in heavy manufacturing all the time to keep people safe, even the CDC said if mask wearing was mandatory the spread would fall dramatically within 4-8 weeks. I fail to see why a mask mandate is not the move before complete shutdown? Ultimately things need to be left open because unless you enact martial law you’re not going to stop pool parties, cookouts, weddings, boating events, camping with friends. By and large people have said screw this and are continuing social events with people they know. As long as this is the norm I fail to see how a bar or restaurant closing is going to do much of anything except make those people go broke. In the latest Gallup poll 72% of people wear a mask “Always” or “Very Often” so we are definitely improving! But come on guys get with it, people are running around like crazy this summer. If the US government bans out of state travel, bans any group hangouts at homes & then closes down restaurants/bars/gyms I’d say that’s an idea that while extreme would work. But unless those are done you’re completely delusional thinking closing any businesses is going to actually solve this virus In reality, a nationwide mask mandate should of been put into effect back in early March. If this country had a president that truly cared about its people and not a completely out of touch with reality imbecile, maybe things would be different right now. Masks shouldn’t be a liberal vs conservative debate topic as so many things have become in this country. They should be common sense. Of course masks aren’t 100% effective, but they help tremendously in containing droplets spewing from our mouths and noses, as well as stopping them from getting in, thus helping greatly to slow / stop the spread of the virus. Closing businesses doesn’t accomplish a thing if people are still going to practice bad hygiene in get togethers with family / friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWaves Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 10 hours ago, Stebo said: What is with continued nonsense. Even if you aren't, someone in your family can be, a friend, neighbor, coworker. No one exists in a vacuum. FYI, I don't have any of those! Joking ofc, but I posted that cartoon as a bit of a spoof towards you actually. It's an old capture from early in the outbreak. It is pretty funny if taken for it's intended humor and not as a statement of fact. I was with fam this Friday for a funeral that was delayed since April due to covid. We were just sitting around visiting afterwards and my sister's hubby from MN took a poll to see how many of us knew firsthand of someone with covid. Seven of us from 3 different states. Only my other sister could say they knew of one single person. Her friend's adult daughter who works at a hospital in the Detroit metro area. This gal's department was suddenly idled by the lockdown of non-essential business back in April so management moved her to work in the covid patient zone WITHOUT proper PPE. She contracted the virus but being younger did not suffer much worse than a typical bad flu case. I agree with the post that masking became a political "football". Confusing signals up front certainly didn't help things at all. As for being political in posts. Please tell me what major event affecting so many people in so many ways is free from politics. In my small town I can't leave snow on my walk beyond 24 hrs, nor allow my dog to poop outside my yard without cleaning it up. Certainly can't park dead vehicles on my property indefinitely. It's not the wild west. We're a society of "rules and reg's" like never before in history. We aren't bringing politics into covid. They were joined at the hip from day 1. With any threat to health and safety, everyone will assess it and draw their line of response in a different place along the spectrum. That's just the nature of human individualism not to mention this nation was founded on the principals of freedom of choice from dictatorial control. There are people willing to die to defend that still. They aren't "idiots" or "heartless" individuals. Putting the mandate of anything on a person in our country is just likely to rub a certain percentage of our population the wrong way. I don't have the answer to how you gain 100% compliance to a controversial demand on the individual in such a freedom loving society. I just don't see forcing it as realistic. At some point forcing will back-fire and you will have revolt on your hands. My wife leans towards masking as she is much more the compliant type, even tho she too questions the narrative of whether the risk warrants the first time in history response of restrictions. Hopefully we all get through this and can put this in the rear view mirror. It has been a good time to reflect on the bigger picture of life and how we respond to it's ups and downs as we go along the journey. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dta1984 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 12 hours ago, RogueWaves said: Duh. Who said I don't wear a mask? If you look far enough back in the thread made it clear I do wear a mask. But I don't wear one any longer than necessary to conduct close proximity business. That can have adverse side-effects. I wear it when appropriate and not a minute longer than necessary. The masks certainly work to stop moisture droplets/sneezes/cough projectiles that would contain the tiny virus particles. They are not an air-tight seal to the head though, so any normal exhaled air that goes out sideways could also contain the tiny virus particles. They help, but they don't guarantee a prevention of spread by an asymptomatic carrier to those around him/her. We'd all have to dress up in hazmat suits like that cartoon to truly be "safe" in the open marketplace. Agree with this. Wear it just long enough as needed/required. We should be promoting living a healthier lifestyle, eating right and exercising as much as masks are being promoted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWaves Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 11 hours ago, Malacka11 said: On behalf of all liberals, I apologize for not tolerating opinions that suggest that we should let a lethal virus spread rather than let the government close certain businesses because it's "scary". What's scary to me is how many people this virus has revealed to be conspiracy theorists. Edit: I know that this isn't an appropriate comment for this thread, but if a single person reads this and thinks for a minute about it, then that's worth the ban for me. Nice tongue-in-cheek edit there. While mere moments after a post calling for no politicizing of comments, a truly direct political "orange man bad" shot is fired. Nice. It's pretty convenient to blame a guy in his first term ever in politics (let alone head of the "free world") who got a truck-load of this horse sh*t dumped on him. We could easily have found ourselves in this same controversial boat in 2009 when H1N1 was running rampant. Funny how the powers that be never called for draconian economy killing measures while "O" was in that role. And yes, many conspiracy theories are later proven to have been conspiracy fact. The trouble is nobody cares to parse the details 5 or 10 years later especially if they weren't personally impacted by great loss. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWaves Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 hour ago, ovweather said: In reality, a nationwide mask mandate should of been put into effect back in early March. If this country had a president that truly cared about its people and not a completely out of touch with reality imbecile, maybe things would be different right now. Masks shouldn’t be a liberal vs conservative debate topic as so many things have become in this country. They should be common sense. Of course masks aren’t 100% effective, but they help tremendously in containing droplets spewing from our mouths and noses, as well as stopping them from getting in, thus helping greatly to slow / stop the spread of the virus. Closing businesses doesn’t accomplish a thing if people are still going to practice bad hygiene in get togethers with family / friends. Other than your belittlement of our president, this was a good post and totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 People keep calling it political football, when has the CDC or Fauci say you don't need to wear a mask? Months ago when no one knew what was up. That is like taking census data from 30 years ago and applying it to now. Just because they said one thing at the initial stages doesn't make it a political football. You still have people now saying who are doing so for political means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWaves Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, dta1984 said: Agree with this. Wear it just long enough as needed/required. We should be promoting living a healthier lifestyle, eating right and exercising as much as masks are being promoted. And the increased protocols for cleanliness at common touch points at businesses, especially food related ones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, RogueWaves said: Nice tongue-in-cheek edit there. While mere moments after a post calling for no politicizing of comments, a truly direct political "orange man bad" shot is fired. Nice. It's pretty convenient to blame a guy in his first term ever in politics (let alone head of the "free world") who got a truck-load of this horse sh*t dumped on him. We could easily have found ourselves in this same controversial boat in 2009 when H1N1 was running rampant. Funny how the powers that be never called for draconian economy killing measures while "O" was in that role. And yes, many conspiracy theories are later proven to have been conspiracy fact. The trouble is nobody cares to parse the details 5 or 10 years later especially if they weren't personally impacted by great loss. He gutted the infectious disease plans that previous administrations setup. He is far from blameless or just a guy who got a ton dumped on him. He did direct actions that prevented a better response. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWaves Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, Stebo said: People keep calling it political football, when has the CDC or Fauci say you don't need to wear a mask? Months ago when no one knew what was up. That is like taking census data from 30 years ago and applying it to now. Just because they said one thing at the initial stages doesn't make it a political football. You still have people now saying who are doing so for political means. Not about CDC/Fauci waffles. The left says if you don't wear one, you must hate your neighbor and just want people to die. The right has deemed it an erosion of 2nd amendment freedoms if it's a forced thing. It has been politicized, though ideally it would've been better had it not been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, RogueWaves said: Not about CDC/Fauci waffles. The left says if you don't wear one, you must hate your neighbor and just want people to die. The right has deemed it an erosion of 2nd amendment freedoms if it's a forced thing. It has been politicized, though ideally it would've been better had it not been. I missed that story, got a link to it? Also hyperbole much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWaves Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, Stebo said: He gutted the infectious disease plans that previous administrations setup. He is far from blameless or just a guy who got a ton dumped on him. He did direct actions that prevented a better response. Pretty sure he was handed a "no win" situation. Whichever way he leaned, the other side would've cried "foul". A doctor in the Houston area has had a 100% cure rate using a regimen that includes HCQ, but nobody wants to go there. What do you do? 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, RogueWaves said: Pretty sure he was handed a "no win" situation. Whichever way he leaned, the other side would've cried "foul". A doctor in the Houston area has had a 100% cure rate using a regimen that includes HCQ, but nobody wants to go there. What do you do? I am pretty sure he did everything possible to make it a "no win". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwohweather Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 In reality, a nationwide mask mandate should of been put into effect back in early March. If this country had a president that truly cared about its people and not a completely out of touch with reality imbecile, maybe things would be different right now. Masks shouldn’t be a liberal vs conservative debate topic as so many things have become in this country. They should be common sense. Of course masks aren’t 100% effective, but they help tremendously in containing droplets spewing from our mouths and noses, as well as stopping them from getting in, thus helping greatly to slow / stop the spread of the virus. Closing businesses doesn’t accomplish a thing if people are still going to practice bad hygiene in get togethers with family / friends.Thank you! This is why I think Stebo and PurdueWx are missing the boat a bit. Obviously love talking weather with you guys but spending the 4th back up there it’s obvious everyone are having social gathering at their house instead of going out. Truly I feel safer eating with friends at a restaurant where my server is wearing a mask and people are spaced out than at a cookout for 20. But because of shutdown rules my only social options are to do the cookout 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, nwohweather said: Thank you! This is why I think Stebo and PurdueWx are missing the boat a bit. Obviously love talking weather with you guys but spending the 4th back up there it’s obvious everyone are having social gathering at their house instead of going out. Truly I feel safer eating with friends at a restaurant where my server is wearing a mask and people are spaced out than at a cookout for 20. But because of shutdown rules my only social options are to do the cookout Cookouts are almost always outdoors, and restaurants having outdoor seating are safer than indoor. Indoor restaurant eating is by far one of the worst things to do right now... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ovweather Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 43 minutes ago, RogueWaves said: Other than your belittlement of our president, this was a good post and totally agree. Even though Covid and other diseases, and any crisis for that matter, should never be made a political issue, in the case of the current administration, that’s exactly how they view Covid. Whether we want to discuss it or not, Trump deserves some blame and belittlement here for not being a good leader when the country needs its president the most. Instead, a weak and insecure sociopath was allowed to fill a job he has no qualifications for, and it has really shown during this pandemic. I say this as an outside looking in independent and that is until both the conservatives and liberals decide to stop bickering with each other and trying to one up each other, this country will continue to decline. And in situations like Covid were we need everyone to be on the same page and cooperating, we still have way too much political gesturing going on. America is suppose to be the greatest country in the world. Instead, the current administration and political scene in this country has started making the USA a laughing stock to the rest of the world. It’s very disheartening. Sorry for the rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Storm Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 46 minutes ago, RogueWaves said: Other than your belittlement of our president, this was a good post and totally agree. He does that to himself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Of course this pandemic would've been a lot to dump on any president, let alone somebody who never held any office. Whether or not someone wants to use that as an excuse is up to them. Presidents usually get tested at some point in their presidency. We went through a lot of this same stuff in the 1918 pandemic. Masks, closures, etc. And guess what? Things eventually became normal again. You didn't have to wear a mask in public for the rest of your life. I'm not sure if there was such vociferous resistance back then. I know we didn't have twitter and the like, lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Anyway, this thread is getting too political. Get back on track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 21 minutes ago, Hoosier said: Of course this pandemic would've been a lot to dump on any president, let alone somebody who never held any office. Whether or not someone wants to use that as an excuse is up to them. Presidents usually get tested at some point in their presidency. We went through a lot of this same stuff in the 1918 pandemic. Masks, closures, etc. And guess what? Things eventually became normal again. You didn't have to wear a mask in public for the rest of your life. I'm not sure if there was such vociferous resistance back then. I know we didn't have twitter and the like, lol. Should probably just make masks mandatory for 6 months while opening everything immediately. End the $600 per week and then let's see what kind of economy we have left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted_Trough Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Anti-maskers were prevalent in 1918, too: https://crosscut.com/2020/07/mask-wars-1918-flu-pandemic It appears back in 1918 they actually enforced the rule more than they are doing today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chances14 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Politics has been rotting us from the inside out long before trump was in office. The media has either gone far to the left or far to the right. There is no objective source to get your information from anymore My biggest concern is the governors have so much power right now under the pretense of a public health emergency. No single person should be able to create laws that effect the livelihoods of its citizens without the input of the public or state legislature, which is exactly what has been going in Michigan for months now. One thing this has done is made me frequent a lot more of the local businesses around here. I figure they are gonna need all the help they can get when they are inevitably forced to shut down again 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted_Trough Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Swine flu in 2009 was far less deadlier than the traditional flu. The IFR for swine flu is 0.01 (compared to ~0.1 for the traditional flu). So it made sense to just let it burn through the population. If the swine flu had an IFR of 0.5 or 1.0 (i.e. similar to Covid) we would have seen a similar response. Swine flu also didn't have the longer term complications that Covid appears to be causing in many of those who have recovered (of course we need more time to assess the impact of these effects but its disconcerting and not talked about much) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baum Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 31 minutes ago, Inverted_Trough said: Swine flu in 2009 was far less deadlier than the traditional flu. The IFR for swine flu is 0.01 (compared to ~0.1 for the traditional flu). So it made sense to just let it burn through the population. If the swine flu had an IFR of 0.5 or 1.0 (i.e. similar to Covid) we would have seen a similar response. Swine flu also didn't have the longer term complications that Covid appears to be causing in many of those who have recovered (of course we need more time to assess the impact of these effects but its disconcerting and not talked about much) Can you post some studies regarding these longer term effects: cases, specific medical studies discussing causes and frequency? I have seen references to this before, but it certainly not something that is discussed often when referring to this virus. Wife will be a returning "in class"teacher this fall for second graders so any info from trusted medical sources would be a great help. Thanks. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWaves Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 3 hours ago, Stebo said: I missed that story, got a link to it? Also hyperbole much... It was a reference to that youtube vid Jonger linked. It was a slight hyperbole but I thought you watched that and would catch it. Nonetheless, posts with subtle undertones about "grandma dying" have been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwohweather Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Cookouts are almost always outdoors, and restaurants having outdoor seating are safer than indoor. Indoor restaurant eating is by far one of the worst things to do right now...Ha ya lost me there buddy. To say a low capacity restaurant is worse than a cookout is wild 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 15 minutes ago, nwohweather said: Ha ya lost me there buddy. To say a low capacity restaurant is worse than a cookout is wild I will trust this chart over your thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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